Sobering Thoughts About "The Definitive Racing Simulator"

[Clark]

Touché.

 

[JDMKING13]

I drove a RWD Bugatti EB110, but I didn't want to.

HAHAHA!!! 👍

 

[chromatic9]

I drove a Ferrari California in Forza 3 with the brake lights in the correct place.

 

[Terronium-12]

Has anyone been keeping up with the DLC due next Tuesday?

Full. Of. Fail.

First pack I won't be buying.

 

[Adam41]

You totally missed the joke, a brilliant one at that.

Oh, I've got one...I once drove an R8 that actually sounded like an R8.

I guess the smiley face swayed you from my sarcasm.

I've got one aswell. You don't get fat, black tyre marks on GT when you go around any corner faster than 20mph.

 

[barryl85]

Has anyone been keeping up with the DLC due next Tuesday?

Full. Of. Fail.

First pack I won't be buying.

Got a link to the info on this pack?

Is it the one with the Civic EK9 in it? Cos that will defo not be fail.

 

[YSSMAN]

Has anyone been keeping up with the DLC due next Tuesday?

Full. Of. Fail.

First pack I won't be buying.

I haven't heard anything about it. Quick search of the internets turns up something with a Ford Fusion and a Jeep Cherokee SRT-8? Hmmmm.

I'm still waiting for the Jalopnik summer pack, then.

 

[Terronium-12]

I guess the smiley face swayed you from my sarcasm.

I've got one aswell. You don't get fat, black tyre marks on GT when you go around any corner faster than 20mph.

Should have used this one...

Got a link to the info on this pack?

Is it the one with the Civic EK9 in it? Cos that will defo not be fail.

Morgan Aero 8
Subaru Legacy B4 2.5
BMW X6M
Mercedes SLK55 AMG
Ford Fusion
Mazdaspeed 3
Lotus Evora Type 124 (GT3 racing car)
Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8

June DLC Thread

It starts on page 45, back track if you like, but I wouldn't advise it. The Evora isn't enough of a reason to buy the pack, and why anyone would want the Fusion or the X6 is far beyond my capabilities of comprehension.

There are two cars left, but judging by the trend I highly doubt it'll be anything worth swaying my decision. Would have been logical to do a Le Mans theme, but, apparently SUV's and other unnecessary things took priority.

 

[danielwhite74]

I don't believe Forza is a terrible game per se, I'm just amazed that Turn 10 have gotten away with marketing it as an authentic driving experience. Even in untuned, high-powered rear-wheel-drive vehicles, oversteer is almost non-existent. Even when it does occur, it's so manageable and easily avoided that there seems little point in implementing it in the first place. The whole thing just feels like Need For Speed Underground bar longer braking distances. Don't get me wrong, I love Need For Speed - but it's not realism.

 

[Terronium-12]

Again with the Need for Speed comparison and no oversteer complaints?

It is extremely manageable, I'll give you that...but cars do oversteer. Try taking a LMP1/2 car around any track and you'll find yourself letting off the gas more then you're on it. Try taking the Ultimate Aero around any track, and again, you'll find yourself letting off the gas (and dry, and granny steering the thing) because there's too much oversteer....even with TCS on. Something no one seems to remember is T10 decided to make FM3 more accessible. Somehow I feel had GT done the same thing virtually no one would be complaining about it, instead they'd be professing how it's still the best thing since sliced bread despite the "watered down" physics.

Oh, wait a minute - that's already happened, hasn't it?

 

[ItsHim]

Something no one seems to remember is T10 decided to make FM3 more accessible.

Another thing no-one remembers is that T10 screwed up RWD seriously in FM2 and thus simply had to react to cure it.

I had some marvellous RWD tunes, but at a certain point I just gave up on them because either they were LB tunes totally destroying the competition or really good driver's cars but you always had to keep them on the edge while others just took the easy road and went for FWD or AWD. I'm not that competitive but losing because they pictured the drivetrain characteristics wrong is no fun at all. Some RWDs were plain cheating (R5, the Lotuses) others deliberately messed up (Vauxhall VX220).

So, fixing something by breaking it again didn't seem to have worked - better luck next time I guess

 

[Terronium-12]

Another thing no-one remembers is that T10 screwed up RWD seriously in FM2 and thus simply had to react to cure it.

I had some marvellous RWD tunes, but at a certain point I just gave up on them because either they were LB tunes totally destroying the competition or really good driver's cars but you always had to keep them on the edge while others just took the easy road and went for FWD or AWD. I'm not that competitive but losing because they pictured the drivetrain characteristics wrong is no fun at all. Some RWDs were plain cheating (R5, the Lotuses) others deliberately messed up (Vauxhall VX220).

So, fixing something by breaking it again didn't seem to have worked - better luck next time I guess

Indeed. Hopefully they'll return to be more of a sim as opposed to an accessible sim (the differences are apparent) for FM4. It does seem that with every release the game improves twofold and then seems to fall behind in one aspect or another..but again with none of the FM games peaking the Xbox's capabilities you're left wondering if they prolonged the development cycle how much could have been given?

 

[McLaren]

I drove a Ferrari California in Forza 3 with the brake lights in the correct place.

That was a great little conversation in the GT section.

 

[boxox]

Something no one seems to remember is T10 decided to make FM3 more accessible. Somehow I feel had GT done the same thing virtually no one would be complaining about it, instead they'd be professing how it's still the best thing since sliced bread despite the "watered down" physics.

There's accessible and then there's stuff that is unavoidable given their driving model. They sort of work together in the case of F3. Very little of what you see in the game is ever calculated on-the-fly, rather it switches between pre-defined values in gamedb.slt. There's loads of data inside the non-scary realm and it can be quite accurate there. But there's no way for F3 to give you something other than what it has pre-calculated for any given circumstance. There's no data in the scary zones past peak slip. So it does everything it can to keep you inside the non-scary zone, where it actually has data.

If you look at the table data_car you can see exactly what drives the 'active steering' as seen on that famous video. Steermaxangle, steermaxangvelturning, steermaxangvelstraighten, steerangvelcountersteer, steervelangdynfindpeak, and about a half dozen others, all there to try and keep the tyre model in a zone where it actually has data.

If you read this recent article by Dave Kaemmer on developing a analytical/brush tyre model for iRacing, it goes into some detail on the linear-style model some other games use for point of comparison.

 

[ItsHim]

... you're left wondering if they prolonged the development cycle how much could have been given?

I always enjoyed the online aspect of FM2 more than anything else and I don't mind features and strings that makes the game more fun for the masses. The more the merrier.

But balancing is paramount for any online heavy game. I feel that many franchises don't do a particularly good job in that department. Maybe they'll throw in some serious new code-base for FM4 - who knows.

Would be the road I would like to see Forza going, I only use my XBox today for Shift and Snooker which is quite a waste of space

 

[danielwhite74]

Again with the Need for Speed comparison and no oversteer complaints?

It is extremely manageable, I'll give you that...but cars do oversteer. Try taking a LMP1/2 car around any track and you'll find yourself letting off the gas more then you're on it. Try taking the Ultimate Aero around any track, and again, you'll find yourself letting off the gas (and dry, and granny steering the thing) because there's too much oversteer....even with TCS on. Something no one seems to remember is T10 decided to make FM3 more accessible. Somehow I feel had GT done the same thing virtually no one would be complaining about it, instead they'd be professing how it's still the best thing since sliced bread despite the "watered down" physics.

Oh, wait a minute - that's already happened, hasn't it?

Gran Turismo's physics are by no means "watered down." As for the accusations of bias, if Gran Turismo 5 was released with Forza's physics engine, I'd be devastated.

 

[Terronium-12]

Gran Turismo's physics are by no means "watered down." As for the accusations of bias, if Gran Turismo 5 was released with Forza's physics engine, I'd be devastated.

Have you played GT4 before?

'Nuff said.

 

[Moglet]

If you look at the table data_car you can see exactly what drives the 'active steering' as seen on that famous video. Steermaxangle, steermaxangvelturning, steermaxangvelstraighten, steerangvelcountersteer, steervelangdynfindpeak, and about a half dozen others, all there to try and keep the tyre model in a zone where it actually has data.

I'd rather play the game and have a bit of fun myself. But I'm not one to judge; if looking up game data gives you kicks then go for it.

 

[paskowitz]

I think the problem with Forza 3 is immersion. It has lots of great features and cars and so on but I am always aware I am playing a game, due to the combination of the toony graphics (the game looks much better in replay) and overly grippy handling on 95% of the cars (IMO). The other thing that kills me is the 8 cars on track. To me it just kills it. Most races I feel like I am playing time trial.

If any of you have NFS Shift on the PC fully modded with the latest Sharp mod, now that is immersion. Turn down the motion blur and it feels and looks very real. Sure the rest of the game is trash but running time trials on the Ring in the GTR Spec-V is a top flight experience.

 

[12thgear]

Have you played GT4 before?

'Nuff said.

Fair enough, but GT5 Prologue has made great strides over previous GT games. I've heard that the later builds of the full GT5 are even better. I'm looking forward to it.

That said, I'm having a blast playing Forza 3 and while there are some issues with its physics and "active steering", I'm glad I bought it.

 

[phil-t]

There's accessible and then there's stuff that is unavoidable given their driving model. They sort of work together in the case of F3. Very little of what you see in the game is ever calculated on-the-fly, rather it switches between pre-defined values in gamedb.slt. There's loads of data inside the non-scary realm and it can be quite accurate there. But there's no way for F3 to give you something other than what it has pre-calculated for any given circumstance. There's no data in the scary zones past peak slip. So it does everything it can to keep you inside the non-scary zone, where it actually has data.

If you look at the table data_car you can see exactly what drives the 'active steering' as seen on that famous video. Steermaxangle, steermaxangvelturning, steermaxangvelstraighten, steerangvelcountersteer, steervelangdynfindpeak, and about a half dozen others, all there to try and keep the tyre model in a zone where it actually has data.

If you read this recent article by Dave Kaemmer on developing a analytical/brush tyre model for iRacing, it goes into some detail on the linear-style model some other games use for point of comparison.

[edit] OK, some humble pie, I have read your threads in the NFS Shoft forum!
Still, I'd love to see the db!!!

 

[Terronium-12]

I don't have access to the 'db', but can you give more details, as there is a mother load of rash assumption in what you are saying without you divulging anymore info.

It almost sounds as if they use a massive look up table with no dynamic calculations for the physics and that they have some massive 'hole' (you refer to as the scary zone) that is so evident in the data, please can you explain a bit more, it just sounds like you have heard a few physics modelling terms for tyres and are just throwing them out there, I may be wrong, but can you be more technical and not dress it down for the layman?

So far, you've mentioned what most would consider normal parameters, it has to accomodate controllers, which require some quite heavy filtering/tweaking to get the feel right, and yes, we all know they don't unfilter the wheel enough for the alledged purist..

I guess I'll await the breakdown of how you categorically know that they are not calculating anything, and it's all just pre-baked noddy stuff, it just sounds incredulous at the moment (But not necessarily untrue!)

From where I'm standing, unless they have a shedload of obvious data in there, and I mean a shedload, all I'd expect is a ton of parameterised values, to which you wouldn't have a clue how most of them are being used, without the algorithm that uses them, how can we categorically say anything?

I guess all I'm asking for is some good evidence it's all pre-baked, and not just a ton of params, as you'd expect from a physics engine..

I can account for what he's saying (Box is just about the only other snooping geek I know besides myself who's made it public - check my NFS Shift threads). If he doesn't respond, I can send you the files.

 

[phil-t]

I can account for what he's saying (Box is just about the only other snooping geek I know besides myself who's made it public - check my NFS Shift threads). If he doesn't respond, I can send you the files.

Could you, it's just sometimes when people just give the basics, it all sounds too good to be true, I'd like to have a good peak at the DB, I wish I had a modded 360 sometimes, this kind of stuff is cool..

 

[Terronium-12]

Could you, it's just sometimes when people just give the basics, it all sounds too good to be true, I'd like to have a good peak at the DB, I wish I had a modded 360 sometimes, this kind of stuff is cool..

PM'd to you.

 

[phil-t]

PM'd to you.

You sir are a star!!!!!

OK, I'm looking through the DB, and specifically the data_car table to start with..

I don't see what Boxox is quite saying though, there are a ton of parameters, min/max's, a few aero fudge factors, and as mentioned all the input filtering params.

I see some tyre friction scale factors, but all really basic..

I was expecting to see some obvious lookup type tables to suggest it's pre-baked and quite undynamic..

Am I looking in the wrong place (I Must be..)?

And thanks for sending them, just how cool is it to see so much behind the scenes data for the game (I'm a software engineer, and work on realtime control systems, so love this kind of thing!)..

 

[Terronium-12]

So, that's three geeks now?

Awesome.

 

[danielwhite74]

Have you played GT4 before?

'Nuff said.

I have played every Gran Turismo game. Forza's physics are painfully unrealistic in comparison to every one of them. Even in the Playstation One games, the cars were a joy to drive, simulating the build up of understeer and weight transfer very well, while Turn 10's offering two console generations later does nothing of the sort. It's ridiculous what they're passing of as a "simulation" driving game.

 

[Terronium-12]

I have played every Gran Turismo game. Forza's physics are painfully unrealistic in comparison to every one of them. Even in the Playstation One games, the cars were a joy to drive, simulating the build up of understeer and weight transfer very well, while Turn 10's offering two console generations later does nothing of the sort. It's ridiculous what they're passing of as a "simulation" driving game.

Yeah, because in GT4 oversteer was non-existent unless you tuned for it, every car drove as if it were magnetically attached to the track you were on. When cars did oversteer it was nothing but snap oversteer which happened in the most unrealistic ways possible, driving on dirt courses was a joke...you couldn't drive without crashing into a wall or barricade.

Oh, and did I mention you could drive through almost every corner on every track, with almost every single car using full acceleration with no ill-effects whatsoever?

What was your argument again?

 

[Dave A]

Not quite true and very exaggerated but I know what you mean. GT4 to me is about on a par with Forza 2 physics wise, it's just that their failures occur in different places. What GT4 messed up was the grip transition of the tires, it wasn't that they reacted wrong when they were within capacity or exceeded it, it was the transition from within to exceeding capacity that let it down. Forza 3 is better than GT4 imo but not as good as GT5 or the TT demo. Needless to say, I'm definitely looking forward to GT5.

 

[Terronium-12]

Not quite true and very exaggerated but I know what you mean.

Quite so, but overall many of the cars felt that way, at least to me.

Didn't stop me from enjoying it though.

Which is the main point I'm trying to convey; just enjoy the damn game and stop picking at every possible mundane problem one can find. Either of the two are only going to be as realistic as necessary, not necessarily as realistic as possible by any definition.