Sobering Thoughts About "The Definitive Racing Simulator"

[12thgear]

Wow, you must not have played around much with the Datsun 510 and the Bugatti EB110.

Actually, I'm pretty stunned at how manageable the EB110 has been for me, even with all assists off. Believe me, I'm not LB fast, but I'm not spinning into the weeds every 8 seconds either. I have spent plenty of time tuning my wheel and pedal setup to get just the right clutch and brake feel, and the brake feel alone has made things easier.

 

[Terronium-12]

Actually, I'm pretty stunned at how manageable the EB110 has been for me, even with all assists off. Believe me, I'm not LB fast, but I'm not spinning into the weeds every 8 seconds either. I have spent plenty of time tuning my wheel and pedal setup to get just the right clutch and brake feel, and the brake feel alone has made things easier.

Ah, you use a wheel...well then, I'll have to retract most of my previous statement. I still stand by the excessive grip claims being ludicrous though.

 

[SavageEvil]

I own and play FM3 online from time to time, it is a fun game and annoying at times. Turn 10 has done well, but the big time screw up of the online lobbies is unforgivable, that incredibly annoying ranking system and loss of tuning after online race is just wrong. I have loads of fun when I manage to get into a room with other top notch racers, these guys are good at driving POS's really fast it's amazing to be in races with them. As I do not own a wheel and in no way shape or form will I shell out for that Porsche wheel, MS should have just gotten Logictec to install drivers to use the G25 on the system.

Forza 3 graphics are pretty good, to really great, but that varies from course to course, Fujimi Kaido looks beautiful as does Rally de Positano, but everything else is beneath those two, my opinion is the short draw distance helps those stages look their best. Now as for the cars they for the most part look good, the interiors was something I was looking forward to as I had gotten treated to it in GT5P...groan turn 10 made a boo boo, the stock setting is too damn close and when you mess around with multi screen set up and move it back, you can no longer look left or right analog like, in fact it's rather jarring that the picture snaps to an exterior view. What is a pain is the whole drive train swap feature, this turns the game upside down. It allows for pretty amazing things but that is a double edged sword, while some cars are left out in the cold (BMW), others have free shots to the top of leader boards(Dodge Viper ACR '08). The Viper '08 owns the leader boards in S Class, it's a powerhouse when you race against someone with equal skill and very easy to drive. I spend most of my time driving a Saleen S7, and have become quite adept at handling this awesome car, but to be competitive you have to almost expertly handle this thing and with all the AWD cars all over the place, this is a pain in the ass but can be fun. The performance index thing is a complete mystery to me, as it makes no sense how many of these cars are even in the rank they have. A bone stock S7 is rated 698, TS is a 9, handling is 6.5, acceleration is 8.1, launch is 8.0 and braking is 6.4 and weighing ~2900 lbs with 575hp, how in the hell can you tune another car and get more HP, with even less weight and almost identical handling and braking numbers and greater acceleration, yet be only two points better than the S7. On the track it's a different story, that awd monster will leave you at the line and you'll be playing catch up the whole race and don't let there be a slow corner before a long straight, you'll curse those acceleration numbers big time.
While not perfect, this game does offer up tons of fun along with frustrating times. I'm not the fastest driver, but I'm ok and I drive cleanly as possible. I just wished that Turn 10 would have gotten the up to date S7 Twin Turbo in there, or at least the '06 S6, why does it still have the old one from FM? I want to find the idiot who thought it would be cool to include trucks and SUV's in the game? Strangely enough there are no HP limited races online, then again that drive train swap breaks that idea apart.
I'm patiently awaiting my GT5, I'll be looking forward to racing you guys. I don't want to give out my gamertag as I'm not the only one using it, but I'll look out for many of you guys, you'll probably notice the Black with Red back end S7 whizzing around in S class, many a day.

 

[Rage0329]

I find the Top Speed, Acceleration, Launch, Handling, Braking numbers to be, well let's be honest, very very arcade. It's like sitting in one of those arcade machines or playing NFS. I can see the benefit to players new to car racing games but it's not a realistic indication of what a car is capable of, that's my opinion though.

In GT we've always just gotten a list of numbers, length, width, weight, power, torque, peak power, peak torque, engine displacement, cylinders etc.

In regards to upgrading, I concur with what you've said. Some cars can be upgraded so well that they're superiour to cars that started in that particular class. It just doesn't make sense for say a hot hatch to be on par with a supercar like the Saleen S7.

The biggest turn off for me as soon as I had the game was the sub-par visuals. I was expecting GT5 standard or just below that. Looking at screenshots prior to buying the game I feel that I was severely duped, I was expecting in game graphics to be as good as those screenshots.

 

[12thgear]

I agree with a lot of what SavageEvil said regarding Forza's faults.

The online issues can be pretty annoying, but it luckily doesn't bother me, as I just don't really play any online games with people I don't know.

The graphics are very good overall, but I would agree that the inconsistency is jarring. You can definitely tell some car models were made with more care than others. And certain environments can look bland. I do like the clean look to everything though, as I find it's pretty easy to drive and look through corners. I also find the interiors to be acceptable. They could be a lot better. They could be a lot worse. My biggest beef is also with the interior FOV. It's just too close.

The PI issues are something I can forgive just for the sake of freedom and the way I play. There's just so much you can do (maybe too much) to modify cars to make them your own, and I just don't see how Turn 10 could provide so many options and account for all variables to prevent people from gaming the PI system. I like that level of freedom, but to get the most out of it, especially when playing with others, some level of self-policing is necessary. I'm actually having tons of fun driving cars that are stock, or when upgraded are usually limited to brakes, tires, and some weight reduction. I also have a stable of cars based on real models my friends own, and I try to upgrade them in similar ways, just to get them close to what I experience in real life. I think if I was really gunning for top 100 LB times (doubt I'll ever be that good), or really wanted to play with a wide field of online players, I'd be a lot more frustrated.

 

[Dave A]

As I do not own a wheel and in no way shape or form will I shell out for that Porsche wheel, MS should have just gotten Logictec to install drivers to use the G25 on the system.

Unfortunately that's not possible, the problem is hardware differences not software. The XB380 uses XID feedback te PS3, PC's and pretty much everything else use HID feedback. Basically XID means that the wheel reads the game and acts accordingly, so the software is on the wheel. HID is where the console tells the wheels what to do. One isn't compatible with the other unfortunately, although IIRC the Porsche wheel has both feedback systems installed.

 

[TBR 427]

Unfortunately that's not possible, the problem is hardware differences not software. The XB380 uses XID feedback te PS3, PC's and pretty much everything else use HID feedback. Basically XID means that the wheel reads the game and acts accordingly, so the software is on the wheel. HID is where the console tells the wheels what to do. One isn't compatible with the other unfortunately, although IIRC the Porsche wheel has both feedback systems installed.

Wonder what persuaded those idiots to make the 360 XID only? I mean, they knew they were going to run out of grunt, every platform does, but by leaving Logitec, probably the biggest wheel manufacturer, in the dark, they've shot themselves in the foot.

Though I suppose, with the steering having perma AIDS, nothing of great value was lost.

In GT we've always just gotten a list of numbers, length, width, weight, power, torque, peak power, peak torque, engine displacement, cylinders etc.

Unfortunately not. Well, not always. My precious kg/mm spring rates and mm ride height and all that precious TANGIBLE data from GT4 had gone somewhere between then and GT5P. At least some things still have units attached, but I'm hoping all will by GT5's release.

 

[drivatar]

Wonder what persuaded those idiots to make the 360 XID only?

The old way Microsoft likes to push their own standards.
Everybody can make HID components but for XID they need to get a license. Easy money and control of the platform.

 

[TBR 427]

The old way Microsoft likes to push their own standards.
Everybody can make HID components but for XID they need to get a license. Easy money and control of the platform.

There's a line between arrogance and stupidity they're not aware exists, I guess.

I mean, isn't not like they've got any hugely popular racing games, when the PC has a dedicated fanbase who are far more likely to buy wheels, and the PSTripple is going to have another 10,000,000+ unit racing game on sale. What do MS have? Well, they game their biggest (1.something million) racer AIDS that steer for you.

Oh well.

There's no way at all this can be rectified on the 360? It can't be programmed around? Or are they going to wait until the 720 and stop being such big babies?

 

[Zenith]

Graphics are one of the most important part of a game like GT or Forza. These games aren't as much racing games as they are car-porn. There are tons of PC sims that are much better than GT or FM in racing. (In my opinion)

From what I've played, FM seems to be more directed at 15 year old boys who want to totally pimp their lamburgeenie guhlard-o and drift around a corner with lots of noise and smoke. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different kind of pleasure than a GT fan would be getting knowing that they are driving a fairly accurate representation of a real car, model, interior, handling, everything.

 

[Clark]

Or any car for that matter. I don't know where all of the excessive grip claims are coming from...I've seen none of that while I'm playing. Pretty much every car will step out if you don't keep a certain amount of throttle applied.

Obviously you have a heavy right foot index finger, I use my wheel now but I used to use the pad and never had any trouble. All the cars in FM have way too much grip, and I mean by a long way.

 

[SavageEvil]

Unfortunately that's not possible, the problem is hardware differences not software. The XB380 uses XID feedback te PS3, PC's and pretty much everything else use HID feedback. Basically XID means that the wheel reads the game and acts accordingly, so the software is on the wheel. HID is where the console tells the wheels what to do. One isn't compatible with the other unfortunately, although IIRC the Porsche wheel has both feedback systems installed.

Liscenced by MS and Porsche makes this wheel too bloody expensive for my tastes, they can both collectively kiss my money goodbye. Hearing about the inability to remove that steering assist nanny doesn't inspire confidence in using a wheel, but I miss rev matching when I downshift would seriously help with lap times.

 

[Terronium-12]

Obviously you have a heavy right foot index finger, I use my wheel now but I used to use the pad and never had any trouble. All the cars in FM have way too much grip, and I mean by a long way.

I won't argue with that, because I do have a heavy finger/foot.

But, seriously though, I really don't see the excessive grip claim....unless you're referring to how easy it is to countersteer (or recover from) when you're about to oversteer, then, that I would agree with. Even that has a particular threshold though because once you let it go too far there's no amount of countersteer that's going to get you back into a straight line.

 

[[empty space]]

i just wish the slr sm had a roll cage once purchased.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

. All the cars in FM have way too much grip, and I mean by a long way.

Or GT(5P) has way too little grip..?
From my real life experience, that's the case.
As said previously, if you refering to snap-in oversteer, you're right.
Other than that try Michelin or Pirelli tyres in real life... tons of grip.

 

[AERO_HDT]

Compare any real life lap time around Suzuka with the same sort of lap time you can achieve using a stock car in Forza. The Forza model will always produce massively quicker laptimes, hence where Duffers is saying the cars in FM have way too much grip.

They do.

GT also has a very high grip level - you really need to put recommended real life tyres on in order to experience a "road car" feel, but this is where Gran Turismo literally kills Forza. The "base level" tyre and grip combination are miles more realistic than anything Turn 10 can throw at you.

Forza's physics engine feels about half as deep as Gran Turismo. There just isn't the same depth in weight, acceleration, feel, turn in as there is with GT.

All one has to do is watch a replay and pay note to the way the car floats across the track - the tyres don't look connected to the road at all and it destroys the illusion.

The second thing you'll pick up on is the total lack of bodyroll. Turn 10 should know their American muscle cars very well, but take a look at say a Dodge Charger RT around the Nurburgring and you'll see the car sits flatter than a pancake through all the corners. Watch the same replay in GT4 and you'll see a much more realistic car that leans through every corner heavily.

I mean, if Forza can only model pitch under braking and acceleration, but can't model the other, most basic element to driving (roll), then that really causes you to lose faith.

The little things add up to a lot. In Forza's case, the game lacks the detail to compete with even Gran Turismo 4.

It might be fun, yes, but so too is MarioKart. However, in Forza's defense, they did say that they were stepping away from the "sim" aspect and that they wanted to make the cars easier to drive and make it more accessible for everyone.

I think they're betting on a lot of people finding GT5 too hard and are going the middle ground. Clever marketing, but at the end of the day, the franchise will suffer because the anoraks will tear Forza 3 apart.

 

[TBR 427]

I think they're betting on a lot of people finding GT5 too hard and are going the middle ground. Clever marketing, but at the end of the day, the franchise will suffer because the anoraks will tear Forza 3 apart.

Then they're betting against a franchise that's managed the following:
10 million
10 million
15 million
10 million
in the last 4 installments.

And the other way they could have gone about it is a standard/pro/etc mode system, with EVERY SINGLE ASSIST KILLED in pro mode.

Or they could have, you know, included a license mode?

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Fair enough, I didn't really mean to defend Forza tho, rather say something is wrong with GT (since this generation)... there's a total lack of 'feel' which most racing games manage to provide (GT1- 4 wasn't a problem). Maybe it's not really 'grip' rather than they messed up the controller programming, I don't know... anyways, often discussed and I just can hope they get their act together and stop screwing pad users.
BTW just because the times are not correct in F3 doesn't necessarily mean the grip levels are wrong, could also be it runs just faster or the track length is wrong ... lots of possible things. However I brake in F3 =car slows down, I brake in RL = car slows down, I brake in GT5P = nothing happens for like 20-30 meters... me not happy.

(and please don't tell me it's the DS3, because in other games it's actually more pressure sensitive and precise than DS2...)

 

[Rage0329]

Try using feint motion to do a turn in Forza 3. It doesn't make a difference. All the things that AERO mentioned above are the same as my personal experience. It doesn't make Forza any less fun for the casual player in my opinion. I'm playing Forza each night trying to get the 100% completion (I was at 88% before the Xbox transfer system killed my save). Part of the other allure is, my Viper looks like the ACR-X and my GT-R Spec-V is in that really nice midnight purple colour. I just wish the game looked as good when I was playing it as the HD screenshot renders the game can output.

 

[R3D D3V!L]

I think Forza 3 is a good game but I fully expect GT5 to be better. I have always preferred GT and always will.

 

[Terronium-12]

Why is this thread still going?

The last couple of pages, or rather, most of this entire thread has been "Forza sucks for this and that reason, and GT is and always will be better."

 

[dzidza]

For me Forza3 doesn't suck, it great but unfinished. My only gripes are about steering aid even with the steering wheel, and 5.1 surrond sound. Just installed F2 yesterday to see the differences, and i must say the 5.1 surround in F2 beats the s**t off F3. In F2 surround sound you can clearly hear which tyre is blocked while braking, adding muffler changes sound. Even career is better structured.

Since i am crazy about racing games, invested a lot of money into steering wheel, wheelstand, pedals etc. i have no regrets for purchasing Xbox360 only for forza, and ps3 only for GT5. Each game has it's advantages and disadvantages (will see them when GT5 arrives), but overall i am more then happy with them.

just my 2 cents

 

[AERO_HDT]

Yes, agreed, I'm happy with Forza as well. I mean, how can you not be impressed with some of the cool cars on offer? Or painting an F40 in British Racing Green?

I am the first to admit that I'm a bit of a one-eyed fan of Gran Turismo. But I buy a lot of racing games across both the XBOX and PS3 format (PC on occaision) and I tend to enjoy them all. I've always looked for the rare moment in a game where I sit up and say... hey that was cool.... Forza 3 gave it to me when I tackled Fujimi Kaido for the first time. Forza 1 gave it to me when I first raced around the Blue Mountains as it was clear that it was Bathurst inspired.

For me, if a game can be memorable, even in the smallest detail or tiniest of moments, then it was worth it.

I agree that perhaps we should stop bagging Forza and talk about the things we enjoy about the game.

Anyone have any good memories? Any enviable moments where we wondered 'why wasn't THAT in Gran Turismo?!'

 

[Moglet]

Any enviable moments where we wondered 'why wasn't THAT in Gran Turismo?!'

I once put my car into reverse in Forza 3...

 

[Adam41]

I once put my car into reverse in Forza 3...

The 360 and PS3 controllers aren't that different are they? It's the triangle on a PS3 one. And if you're using a wheel, the last time I checked you could select reverse on a DFGT or similar.

 

[Dave A]

I once put my car into reverse in Forza 3...

There's plenty in Forza 3 I'd love to see in GT5, from the level of customisation available to the reverse lights. But I have my likes and gripes with both games, fortunately I am able to enjoy both.

Anderrrm, I think Moglet knows that .

 

[Eric.]

The 360 and PS3 controllers aren't that different are they? It's the triangle on a PS3 one. And if you're using a wheel, the last time I checked you could select reverse on a DFGT or similar.

But something magical happens in Forza that has yet to be done in GT...

 

[Terronium-12]

The 360 and PS3 controllers aren't that different are they? It's the triangle on a PS3 one. And if you're using a wheel, the last time I checked you could select reverse on a DFGT or similar.

You totally missed the joke, a brilliant one at that.

Oh, I've got one...I once drove an R8 that actually sounded like an R8.

 

[Clark]

I drove a RWD Bugatti EB110, but I didn't want to.

 

[Terronium-12]

I drove a RWD Bugatti EB110, but I didn't want to.

Then why did you?