Space In General

[CodeRedR51]

egs constitute mass that could be instead used for fuel/payload. Additionally, if you can catch your booster on the tower, then it's already in place where it needs to be to load the next starship onto said booster.

Exactly this and no other reason.

 

[wfooshee]

So do retrorockets...

Well, these aren't retrorockets. They are the same engines used for the boost phase. As far as I can think of, the last American manned spacecraft to use retrorockets (that were specifically retrorockets and nothing else) was Gemini.

Granted, they need to keep enough fuel to land, but the Falcon has had several launches with the booster expended so the landing fuel became payload weight. With the payload capacity designed from the start with that fuel accounted for, it feels like a non-issue.

 

[Famine]

Well, these aren't retrorockets.

They absolutely are. Any rocket that provides deceleration thrust is by definition a retrorocket.

(that were specifically retrorockets and nothing else)

An interesting distinction that I didn't make.


Also it's good to see a former resident here has recovered from their self-reported death.

Edit: Huh, weird reaction.

 

[Danoff]

America conducts the vast majority of the world's space exploration.

Missions like Cassini and Juno come from international cooperation, but primarily from NASA.

The exploration of our solar system is not just a stunt. From it we learn how our solar system formed, how our Earth formed, what the chemical composition of worlds looks like, and how it evolves. Planetary science within our solar system helps us learn about climate change, and the origins of our species. It is some of the most awe-inspiring and important research we do. And we may have peaked.

There is talk of the Trump administration, at the hands of Elon Musk, gutting NASA. Essentially turning it into a glorified contractor for Space X to potentially maybe someday do something with Mars. This would be a major setback for humanity. And as much as humanity is being set back by the Trump administration in so many ways, from women's rights and fetal and pregnancy research and medical development, to climate change, and well beyond, one of the things at stake is whether humanity has reached its peak in terms of space exploration for many decades.

There is an army of scientists and engineers that are all top of their field pushing at the very edge of what humanity can do. Inventing ion propulsion techniques to carry us to explore the corners of our solar system. It all gets gutted if Elon and MTG take a hatchet to NASA. And make no mistake, that is on their minds.

I don't know how much can be done about any of this. But what I do know is that this is one of many ways that the Trump administration threatens to take humanity backward, and will leave us wondering how long it will take to get back to where we've been for the last few decades. Where we're going does not look promising.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Where we're going does not look promising.

At least the world is less dependent on America these days. China's built a space station, they'll probably build a moon base first, they doing the reusable rocket stuff... Humanity will be fine. It might not be American humanity, but it still counts, right?

 

[Griffith500]

It's not about taking humanity backwards, rather finding the best way for certain individuals to make as much money as possible off the back of national institutions that will cost them nothing to muscle in on and their friends in government will practically hand over the keys to.

Same in the UK.
We voted for it, too, over and over.

Some may argue that whether motivated by jingoistic / hegemonic ideals born from imperialist ambition; or simply capitalism in its basest form, if we get to Mars anyway, does it actually matter?

Science for science's sake is going the way of alchemy. Researching ion drives for Mars and beyond is the new lead-into-gold. Good work while it lasts.

How do you make people care about that when they're struggling to make ends meet, and their thoughts are funneled from all angles to focus on the modern equivalents of "bread and circus"?

 

[Danoff]

At least the world is less dependent on America these days. China's built a space station, they'll probably build a moon base first, they doing the reusable rocket stuff... Humanity will be fine. It might not be American humanity, but it still counts, right?

This isn't about America.

Nobody but NASA is doing much interplanetary exploration. There are some examples, but they pale in comparison. NASA almost exclusively represents humanity's interplanetary exploration. If that goes away, I have no doubt that humanity will soldier on, but without one of its grandest endeavors.

if we get to Mars anyway, does it actually matter?

I don't know what you mean by "get to Mars". Humanity has a presence at mars now. I think you might mean "put people on mars", and while that would be an impressive stunt and maybe a landmark in terms of human achievement, it mostly would be a stunt and a landmark.

Science for science's sake is going the way of alchemy. Researching ion drives for Mars and beyond is the new lead-into-gold. Good work while it lasts.

Ion drives have enabled successful missions to fly and explore in places we simply could not have otherwise. It's not a fiction, it has happened, and it has furthered the basis of human knowledge. In some sense, it can't be taken away. But if we can't push further, it feels like we've peaked.

How do you make people care about that when they're struggling to make ends meet, and their thoughts are funneled from all angles to focus on the modern equivalents of "bread and circus"?

It has always been a problem. One way to do it is to honestly address the problem of people struggling to make ends meet. Then maybe they can be more easily inspired to get behind the progress we can make as a species.

 

[Griffith500]

It looked like you were using Mars and ion drives as generic markers for scientific progress.

If you change my statement to "if progress is still made, does it matter the motivation?"
They will still need ion propulsion research for their potentially nefarious ends, and they will still continue to litter Mars.

I personally think it does matter if the motivation isn't pure science, but then I'm an idealist stuck in a cynical world.

The problem is people voted for this. They're struggling to make ends meet and voted to likely make it worse for themselves anyway.

It starts with education, but that has always been a tool of the state first and is a great "emancipator" only if you learn to figure it out for yourself. I say emancipator, but really ignorance can indeed be bliss...

 

[UKMikey]

Elon Musk's SpaceX wins $843,000,000 contract to destroy the International Space Station

The ISS will switch its lights off in 2030

www.unilad.com

 

[EngieDiesel]

Elon Musk's SpaceX wins $843,000,000 contract to destroy the International Space Station

The ISS will switch its lights off in 2030

www.unilad.com

How much you want to bet he instead buys it out, renames it the X Station and suckers even more investors to keep it limping along well past its point of safe operation?

 

[Fezzik]

NASA is dead - at least the parts that don't involve Mars or monetizing space, and even those will be gradually shifted to the private sector

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-picks-jared-isaacman-head-nasa-2024-12-04/

 

[CodeRedR51]

Elon Musk's SpaceX wins $843,000,000 contract to destroy the International Space Station

The ISS will switch its lights off in 2030

www.unilad.com

Old news? NASA made this announcement in June.

 

[Fezzik]

They started the inauguration fireworks a bit early

SpaceX debris streaks across sky after failed Starship test flight

The rocket broke apart shortly after take-off with the remnants lighting up the sky above the Turks and Caicos.

news.sky.com

 

[Clinton Ducks]

NASA is dead - at least the parts that don't involve Mars or monetizing space, and even those will be gradually shifted to the private sector

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-picks-jared-isaacman-head-nasa-2024-12-04/

I think the ‘space industry’ is better off being in the hands of the private sector rather than it just being a tool for governments to flex at each other.

 

[TexRex]

It actually seems kind of...gay? We're still a ways off from June, though.

StOp ShOvInG iT dOwN mY tHrOaT

 

[Exorcet]

I think the ‘space industry’ is better off being in the hands of the private sector rather than it just being a tool for governments to flex at each other.

They can flex all they want monitoring near Earth asteroids that might wipe out all of humanity

Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of the 365 near-Earth asteroids (NEAs), 66 of them are considered potentially hazardous asteroids (PHAs), a subset of the much larger family of NEOs, but particularly more likely to hit Earth and cause significant destruction.[34] NEOs can be divided into NECs (comets only) and NEAs (asteroids only), and further into subcategories such as Atira asteroids, Aten asteroids, Apollo asteroids, Amor asteroids and the potentially hazardous asteroids (PHAs).[61]

 

[Clinton Ducks]

They can flex all they want monitoring near Earth asteroids that might wipe out all of humanity

Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even if they detect one there’s not a whole lot they can do about it. I’d rather not know!

 

[Exorcet]

Even if they detect one there’s not a whole lot they can do about it. I’d rather not know!

That's not actually true, though even if it was it would remain beneficial to know about the threat. Orbital timescales can vary from days to lifetimes. We might detect an asteroid far enough in advance to allow us to develop the technology to defend ourselves from it. There are also a range of impact scenarios. If an asteroid could not be prevented from impacting at all but its damage was limited to a specific region, we could call for an evacuation and save lives.

But as it turns out we're not powerless against asteroids:

Double Asteroid Redirection Test - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NASA and other space agencies have increasing contributed to the long term survival of all of us. They serve very valid and important purposes and shouldn't be cut lightly.

 

[Clinton Ducks]

Well ok, fair enough. Scanning the skies for asteroids, there’s probably not much profit in that so maybe world governments should be responsible for that aspect.

However as far as manned exploration goes, I’d imagine space tourism has a far bigger potential to drive things forward than just the USA, Russia and now China trying to get one up on each other.

 

[Exorcet]

Well ok, fair enough. Scanning the skies for asteroids, there’s probably not much profit in that so maybe world governments should be responsible for that aspect.

There is a lot more than that. Space weather is becoming increasingly important as we rely more and more on technology that can be impacted by it:

Homepage | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center

www.swpc.noaa.gov

Carrington Event - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The geomagnetic storm was associated with a very bright solar flare on 1 September 1859. It was observed and recorded independently by British astronomers Richard Carrington and Richard Hodgson—the first records of a solar flare. A geomagnetic storm of this magnitude occurring today has the potential to cause widespread electrical disruptions, blackouts and damage due to extended cuts of the electrical power grid.[3][4][5]

Space exploration is also what led to GPS and now we're looking toward space to provide additional energy and raw material. We've used space to conduct biology research that is difficult to do on Earth and while you mention competition is has also been a driver for international cooperation. Studying other planets tells us about Earth because of how the solar system formed and the similarities between planets and studying systems besides our own also informs us about the solar system because stars form in specific ways.

However as far as manned exploration goes, I’d imagine space tourism has a far bigger potential to drive things forward than just the USA, Russia and now China trying to get one up on each other.

Space tourism is certainly interesting but doesn't provide much of value. It's essentially lagging behind national space exploration and it's unlikely to ever pull ahead of it (barring massive budget cuts) because sending people into deep space is more of a novelty than anything else. Going beyond Earth orbit with a human payload means extra weight, cost, and complexity. You also need to plan a return trip because we don't have anywhere to place people besides Earth. Probes are just better.

 

[TexRex]

Space tourism is certainly interesting but doesn't provide much of value. It's essentially lagging behind national space exploration and it's unlikely to ever pull ahead of it (barring massive budget cuts) because sending people into deep space is more of a novelty than anything else.

It's sci-fi 'bate bait. It doesn't exist if it's not subsidized.