(Spin) Problem Handling Cars list

[SavageEvil]

I posted some findings in another thread

I was testing my GT40 with stock wheels and then with custom wheels on the stock suspension settings to ensure that tire width visually reflected grip. Ok I used Stowe Circuit as a proving ground using the GT40 with stock wheels I pulled 56.256 so off I went to swap wheels. I swapped for custom wheels and did a 55.146. Yes the car was skittish and while driving I thought that I was actually slower, but it seems that custom wheels weigh less and PD doesn't tell you that but it's modeled and the suspension simulation reacts poorly to it. The car is very unstable with lighter wheels on, sure it's faster but it's more on the edge when you drive it. So PD needs to add more information so we can tune these cars better instead of finding out later on that custom wheels actually do more than look pretty.

I would like someone else to try this out as well on cars that the rim width bug does not affect. GT40, R8 FSI and '13 Viper GTS do not seem to be affected when switching to bigger wheels. My GT40 had stock everything aside from aero package A and other part B, when tested both cars ran on SH tires that came with the car. I will test again with a fully broken in GT40 this one has 37 miles on it. I want to see if I am correct about the suspension playing a vital role when swapping rims out and loss of weight playing a factor.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

@SavageEvil, could driver familiarization have come into play? Given that Stowe is not a well-known track, (like Trial Mountain, for example) couldn't you have said that you simply became more familiar with the track?

 

[SavageEvil]

@ITCC_Andrew
I was thinking the same thing but one thing I noticed is the car was very loose with custom wheels on. That part I didn't imagine, it somehow felt a bit lighter and I spun out the very first turn after the start line. I'll run the test again on a course I'm familiar with, but I ran Stowe 5 times on stock wheels and only gave up after I lost it, that's how I selected my time. Only made it through 2 laps on custom wheels I restarted the first time I spun out in turn 1, then I made 2 laps on edge as the car did not feel right at all on the 3rd lap I lost it in a chicane. I thought I was slower simply because the car was so hard to handle and I was doing more micro managing throttle than I did on stock wheels. When I saw a faster lap I was confused, so I will run it again to be certain I'm not crazy.

The R8 suffers skinny tire syndrome, I'll check other cars to be certain. Still puzzled as to why the GT40 is unaffected. I'm checking other cars to see if I can find cars with wide tires that aren't affected by custom wheels.

 

[LVracerGT]

Has anyone checked to see if fitting stock sized aftermarket wheels changes the rear width? That'd be interesting to find out.

I'm wondering if going up in size and having the tire width decrease was put there on purpose by PD.

 

[4everdelayed]

Did the RedBull Challenge. Cars seem much easier to drive now, no?

I haven't driven any other cars, but the kart and the Xthingy was childishly easy to drive.

 

[brianwong]

My 458 understeers like a pig now that I went back to stock wheels.

 

[Stotty]

Has anyone checked to see if fitting stock sized aftermarket wheels changes the rear width? That'd be interesting to find out.

I'm wondering if going up in size and having the tire width decrease was put there on purpose by PD.

I checked the RGT for that very thing tonight and theya re still screwed... I also checked to see if different wheel designs had a different width, but on the RGT at least, they are all narrow.

 

[LVracerGT]

I checked the RGT for that very thing tonight and theya re still screwed... I also checked to see if different wheel designs had a different width, but on the RGT at least, they are all narrow.

Great so basically switching wheels basically means compromising performance on cars with wider rear tires... not realistic and needs to be addressed asap IMO.

 

[scotty nobles]

C

I posted some findings in another thread

I was testing my GT40 with stock wheels and then with custom wheels on the stock suspension settings to ensure that tire width visually reflected grip. Ok I used Stowe Circuit as a proving ground using the GT40 with stock wheels I pulled 56.256 so off I went to swap wheels. I swapped for custom wheels and did a 55.146. Yes the car was skittish and while driving I thought that I was actually slower, but it seems that custom wheels weigh less and PD doesn't tell you that but it's modeled and the suspension simulation reacts poorly to it. The car is very unstable with lighter wheels on, sure it's faster but it's more on the edge when you drive it. So PD needs to add more information so we can tune these cars better instead of finding out later on that custom wheels actually do more than look pretty.

I would like someone else to try this out as well on cars that the rim width bug does not affect. GT40, R8 FSI and '13 Viper GTS do not seem to be affected when switching to bigger wheels. My GT40 had stock everything aside from aero package A and other part B, when tested both cars ran on SH tires that came with the car. I will test again with a fully broken in GT40 this one has 37 miles on it. I want to see if I am correct about the suspension playing a vital role when swapping rims out and loss of weight playing a factor.

Correct

 

[Kmieciu4ever]

In my humble opinion, some MR cars have exaggerated handling to the point of being unpleasant to drive. Since I like stock cars I used Toyota MR2-GTS on the Japanese 90's event (career mode). I won that event without using any driving aids, so don't tell me I can't drive. But on every corner I had to counter-steer and burn my rear rubber just to keep up with the Subarus and the NSX.
MR2 is extremely twitchy - you hardly ever have to turn the wheel more than a couple degrees (I use DFGT). I does not matter if you apply constant throttle throughout of the bend - your rear wheels will loose grip.

Take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wTDaCoK5DxY
First thing to notice is that the driver has to turn the steering wheel up to 180 degrees through the sharp Tsukuba hairpins. In GT6 this would make you spin out.
According to this video both Supra and Silvia are more tail-happy on corner exits than the MR2.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

In my humble opinion, some MR cars have exaggerated handling to the point of being unpleasant to drive. Since I like stock cars I used Toyota MR2-GTS on the Japanese 90's event (career mode). I won that event without using any driving aids, so don't tell me I can't drive. But on every corner I had to counter-steer and burn my rear rubber just to keep up with the Subarus and the NSX.
MR2 is extremely twitchy - you hardly ever have to turn the wheel more than a couple degrees (I use DFGT). I does not matter if you apply constant throttle throughout of the bend - your rear wheels will loose grip.

Take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wTDaCoK5DxY
First thing to notice is that the driver has to turn the steering wheel up to 180 degrees through the sharp Tsukuba hairpins. In GT6 this would make you spin out.
According to this video both Supra and Silvia are more tail-happy on corner exits than the MR2.

Did you change the wheel on the MR2 ? If you change it, the rear will have less traction as the rear tire is wider than front when stock, changing wheel ( regardless the size ) will cause the rear reduce in width - to be the same as front.
If you watch Best Motoring 1992 edition MR2 GTS release review, you will see it went sideways quite often in the 6 lap battle at Tsukuba. Nakaya review also showed a lot of power oversteer on a stock MR2 GTS.





I made a replica of ZEEK tuned MR2 GTS 400PS, and it drove well on comfort soft at bathurst

 

[psavi]

How cute!

People want PD to make them believe they are professional drivers and can drive any car at the limit and the car will not spin.

There are no broken handling cars. Maybe a little mismodeled, but not broken. There are only new physics and better weight transfer.

Get a wheel and try to be a better driver.

New physics rule!

 

[Darkcraft]

How cute!

People want PD to make them believe they are professional drivers and can drive any car at the limit and the car will not spin.

There are no broken handling cars. Maybe a little mismodeled, but not broken. There are only new physics and better weight transfer.

Get a wheel and try to be a better driver.

New physics rule!

Seriously, get off your high horse. Even if they're "only" mismodeled they don't handle like they should. Do people have a right to complain about that? Yes, they do.
You're making it sound like a big part of the GT community can't drive a car properly.
Ooh and getting a wheel won't immediately improve your driving. ( I bet there are people that can beat you "only" using a DS3 )
Maybe you're not having trouble because you're not pushing the cars hard enough..

 

[psavi]

Seriously, get off your high horse. Even if they're "only" mismodeled they don't handle like they should. Do people have a right to complain about that? Yes, they do.
You're making it sound like a big part of the GT community can't drive a car properly.
Ooh and getting a wheel won't immediately improve your driving. ( I bet there are people that can beat you "only" using a DS3 )
Maybe you're not having trouble because you're not pushing the cars hard enough..

Surely, I'm not the fastest driver around. Not even close. And I couldn't care less if some people can beat me with a DS3. I'm amazed what some people can do in racing sims with digital inputs or crude analog inputs.

Once I saw the fastest lap on the board of someone in LFS (a sim I consider pretty realistic) accelerating and breaking with the mouse buttons and turning with the mouse movement. It was insane. I call those people "aliens".

I certainly know that a wheel won't make you better immediately. But for the average driver, once you get used to it, the wheel is the better input because it lets you be much smoother. And IMO, smoothness is what GT6 rewards much more than GT5 and I think that is pretty realistic.

About the GT community, I didn't mean to offend anyone. And people have the right to complain about whatever they want, but I'm entitled to an opinion too.

About me not pushing the cars hard enough, you may be right. But I think wise is the driver who knows how far he can push a car without losing control. And still I'm spinning many times yet, but I'm trying to get used to it. But I'm certainly not blaming the game.

 

[scotty nobles]

How cute!

People want PD to make them believe they are professional drivers and can drive any car at the limit and the car will not spin.

There are no broken handling cars. Maybe a little mismodeled, but not broken. There are only new physics and better weight transfer.

Get a wheel and try to be a better driver.

New physics rule!

Please test the GT 05 with full tune and stock wheels, then with upgraded wheels. Please use the same settings before praising that the programmers are perfect.

 

[Havok_]

I would like to echo the sentiments of the many who have noticed a slight discrepancy when upgrading rims. My test consisted of a Diablo GT2 with stock rims and another with aftermarket rims on Monza, stock rims: Car turns in great on (Variante del Rettifilo) power oversteer on exit but controllable with throttle manipulation. high speed corners are flat, slight oversteer but predictable especially at Parabolica.

Aftermarket rims: Skiddish, much like a rwd car with CS tires and a lot of power. Turn in is very snappy, the car almost seems to want to rotate instantly, BUT manageable with a tad of throttle input(Rettifilo). slight but not too much because serious power oversteer would come in to play if you are too aggressive. Parabolica is also pretty tricky you can straight drift it though if you're not careful with the throttle.

Braking also seems to make the tail wiggle slightly coming down from high speeds, could probably change the brake bias to fix it, but still, not very apparent on stock rims if at all.

The cars are not undrivable, but they are on more of an edge. Balance is key for stability at least in Monza.

My 2 cents..

 

[super_gt]

Here's how to drive oversteering cars.KTM X-BOW stock
I like GT6 physics,it's much better than GT5 unreal understeer physics and I hope for more improvement on PS4 and GT7.

 

[SavageEvil]

I would like to echo the sentiments of the many who have noticed a slight discrepancy when upgrading rims. My test consisted of a Diablo GT2 with stock rims and another with aftermarket rims on Monza, stock rims: Car turns in great on (Variante del Rettifilo) power oversteer on exit but controllable with throttle manipulation. high speed corners are flat, slight oversteer but predictable especially at Parabolica.

Aftermarket rims: Skiddish, much like a rwd car with CS tires and a lot of power. Turn in is very snappy, the car almost seems to want to rotate instantly, BUT manageable with a tad of throttle input(Rettifilo). slight but not too much because serious power oversteer would come in to play if you are too aggressive. Parabolica is also pretty tricky you can straight drift it though if you're not careful with the throttle.

Braking also seems to make the tail wiggle slightly coming down from high speeds, could probably change the brake bias to fix it, but still, not very apparent on stock rims if at all.

The cars are not undrivable, but they are on more of an edge. Balance is key for stability at least in Monza.

My 2 cents..

Take your Diablo GT2 to phototravel and photograph the rear tires, first stock and then after market. If your tire width changes then you know why your car is acting nuts under braking. This sounds very similar to what happens to the R8 on aftermarket wheels, the car is skittish and under breaking when you come off brake the rear end wants to come around. After you take your photos go to gallery and view them, if you notice the after market wheel is smaller width wise then that car suffers from front wheels at all four corners due to a bug that affects a great number of cars in GT6. The only car that isn't affected adversely is the GT40 Mark I...which is weird. So it could be some odd bug that carried over from GT5 that somehow isn't affecting one car.

I tested my theory on the GT40 and realized that with aftermarket wheels you gain time, even though the car seems very skittish and slightly on edge it is faster by .5 to 1.00 seconds depending on the driver on stock suspension. I would like it if others could search for another car that isn't affected by the skinny wheel bug.

 

[psavi]

Please test the GT 05 with full tune and stock wheels, then with upgraded wheels. Please use the same settings before praising that the programmers are perfect.

What changing wheels has to do with what is being discussed here? This thread is about supposedly handling broken cars.

And, I never said the programmers are perfect. Sim racing physics will never be perfect. And sure there is a handful of cars that are mismodeled, because it's simply impossible to model every suspension component and property, let alone the complete behavior of a tire. Simulation is what it is.

But for me, you can only say that the handling of a car is completely off and that it is broken if in real life you drove the same car, in the same location, under the same conditions, in the same way.

 

[MrUnknown]

What changing wheels has to do with what is being discussed here? This thread is about supposedly handling broken cars.

And, I never said the programmers are perfect. Sim racing physics will never be perfect. And sure there is a handful of cars that are mismodeled, because it's simply impossible to model every suspension component and property, let alone the complete behavior of a tire. Simulation is what it is.

But for me, you can only say that the handling of a car is completely off and that it is broken if in real life you drove the same car, in the same location, under the same conditions, in the same way.

Or drive a Kart.

It's MR and it still show the strenght you need to control it.

But still, it's useless saying that these physics because it makes you spin...
... Right. In a chair...

 

[Sage Ages]

Problem handling any cars are spin and oversteer or Broken car thread here. (Need report! PD Need fix it)

Problem handling cars list:

-Ferraria F40 by https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/f40-horrible.293119/page-2#post-9066767
-Lancia Stratos? by https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/lancia-stratos-15th-aniv-undriveable.292850
-Audi R8 by https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/looks-like-the-audi-r8-its-broken.293304
-Ford GT LM Spec II Test Car (found by me)
-RUF RGT (Glitch +100kg balance weight if rear 50% = oversteer-spin(found by me)
-Cizeta V16T? (by me and Stormtrooper217)
-Toyota MR2? (by reaperman)
-Lamborghini Aventador (of course, so easy drift king! by gregorius93 and me)
-Lamborghini Diablo GT2? (by R1600Turbo)
-Audi R8 (by https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/looks-like-the-audi-r8-its-broken.293304/page-2)
-Honda Fit (Broken car) by e30 freek
-...? any got? who found?


(Update add list)

Most of the weight is in the rear. The hell were you expecting?

 

[Gturbo5]

Most of the weight is in the rear. The hell were you expecting?

if balance 40/60 front/rear = spin-oversteer is most of the weight is in rear....... I think if more weight rear will not stop spin, but wtf... I dunno about physics..... Oh nevermind...

 

[RcWr]

Today I got some money and bought Italia 458, Honda NSX Type S and an Aventador. Made a few laps with all of them on Nurburgring with Comfort Softs and I really liked how those cars handle. Didn't notice any problems with snap oversteer or whatever. Of course, constant corrections was necessary, but that I would expect for those cars.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

I also had a go at the GT40 Mk1, and it was a walk in the park compared to SW20 MR2 for example. Why? Well.. As it is, it's light. It has downforce. It has gearing that provides traction. In other words, it's about as easy MR vehicle to drive as it can be, despite of 300bhp+ V8. In fact, I'd go as far as call it an absolute PLEASURE to drive as is, and when I tuned it to 600PP, it just got better. Bit more of a handful, but only if you're not paying attention to what the car is doing.

I also tested 288 GTO and F40. 288 GTO was, again, a really nice car to drive. Bit skittish due the torquey turbo V8, but completely manageable as is. F40 however, was the wild bucking bronco of this trio. I haven't tried tuning it yet like I did with GT40 and 288 GTO, but I suspect that it might remain as a lively ride. While it can be driven fast, you must be on the ball with it or it will force feed the armco to you without mercy or second chances.

 

[Tmortn]

F40 is nutz. Fun but totally bonkers. My experience thus far seems to line up with three factors. The biggest seems to be the lack of fidelity in ds3 inputs. I can consistently move between around 25% changes in throttle and brake inputs with random fluctuations +- 10% on any intermediate level and that just does not seem fine grained enough to hang the car out on the limit. Would kill for slow-mo replay analysis to watch throttle input changes as the rear looses it. The second I think is the custom wheel issue making for skinnier rear rubber but I need to go back and confirm it. The last May or may not be an issue... But weight transfer seems wacky, and insta-tire degradation once the rear does step out makes for damn near impossible recoveries anywhere near the limit. However this could just be an artifact of the lack of controller fidelity. Basically with the ds3 you have 'noise' when holding any intermediate level input, those fluctuations wreak havoc when translating to car inputs on a twitchy MR beast like the F40. The closer you are to the limit the more sensitive the car and the more likely a fluctuation in the input will put you over. In other words the model may be better than the default input allows for pushing at the actual limit of the car.

At any rate MR dynamics are definitely a much larger factor in gt6 than they were in 5 and that is a good thing in my book. In 5 I could drive my F40 and my modded out Mustang almost identically, just had better turn in on the Ferrari to distinguish it. Now they are completely different animals as they should be. The Mustang I can still push very hard and can recover MUCH more easily. Think I went through the recalibration on how to drive FR hard on the new physics with the 370 academy car in the demo. As I recall I spun the crap out of that car and couldn't recover at all the first few times around Silverstone. For now I have dropped the F40 back to 75% power and dropped my pace back to like 6/10ths to start the process of re-calibrating how I push the car. Going to go back to stock wheels as well. Hoping that addresses the squirrelly behavior under straight line braking, brake balance only does so much. Not sure there is any fix for the noisy throttle inputs from ds3 other than to baby it more than I would like.

Update:

In the above setup I had custom wheels and racing brakes with no assists. The real F40 had no electronic nannies so my preference is to always turn them off. Anyway, after reading up on the custom wheel bug and folks experience with race brakes being much more sensitive I swapped it all back to stock.

WOW, what a difference with the stock wheels and brakes. For me it took the car from over the line basket case to high strung performer. It will still bite, but it is now manageable. More importantly one of my favorite cars is now a seriously FUN challenge instead of a nerve wracking Armco junkie.

 

[eSZee]

You're making it sound like a big part of the GT community can't drive a car properly.

Well, yes. I would argue that's true.

 

[super_gt]

learn to drive

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

What changing wheels has to do with what is being discussed here? This thread is about supposedly handling broken cars.

And, I never said the programmers are perfect. Sim racing physics will never be perfect. And sure there is a handful of cars that are mismodeled, because it's simply impossible to model every suspension component and property, let alone the complete behavior of a tire. Simulation is what it is.

But for me, you can only say that the handling of a car is completely off and that it is broken if in real life you drove the same car, in the same location, under the same conditions, in the same way.

Changing wheels in GT6 does have A LOT to do with car handling.

There´s a (another) glitch with tire sizes. If you put aftermarket Rims in a car with different wheel width, ALL 4 TIRES end up having the width of the ones on the front.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...e-same-width-changes-grip-and-balance.294129/

So, in a car with 225 front and 315 rear (for example) with stock wheels, if you change to aftermarket wheels, you end up with 4 225. And that affects quite badly the handling of the car.

 

[Grayfox]

The V16T.

Loosing the back end when only having 50% throttle and going around a turn 1 on Le Mans on racing soft says somthing is wrong.

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

The V16T.

Loosing the back end when only having 50% throttle and going around a turn 1 on Le Mans on racing soft says somthing is wrong.

Did you change the stock wheels? Look at my post above please.