Spinning Arrows Club. Thursday night casual racing.Open 

  • Thread starter tarkus1
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just did a 40 mins session.

here's the numbers I've got:


Ford: 1:57 (after some tune on the setup)

Z4: 1:59 (Daytona tune, change the ballast balance a bit)

SLS: No time (because of a spin out)



here's my thought:

Ford is fast by looking at the number, but also take into count that I am very familiar with the car, thus getting a fast lap time from it is not that difficult.

Z4 is surprisingly easy to drive in this track, considering this is a car that I am not familiar with, need some tuning but it has the potential, I am using the tune that was for Daytona, change it a bit, the drivebility and laptime is not that bad.

SLS definitely needs more horses, the car is stable, too stable that get to a point it doesn't want to accelerate and turn at all...



since Tjger is going to adjust the specs for the entries, we should wait until the new numbers come out and do the testing again and see how it turns out.
 
I also get a 2 Second gab between the ford and the Rest.
How did you test the SLS Setupwise. With a similar setup than the BMW? Cause I have more straight line speed in the SLS than in the BMW Audi is the slowest with the same Aero.
The most I am doing in the Nissan thats actually the same as in Reallife.
I can get all GT3 in between 1 Sekond besides the Nissan. He is 2 sek behind but i think Suzuka is the worst Track for the GTR.
Could you get also Numbers for the Viper Alex?
 
I also get a 2 Second gab between the ford and the Rest.
How did you test the SLS Setupwise. With a similar setup than the BMW? Cause I have more straight line speed in the SLS than in the BMW Audi is the slowest with the same Aero.
The most I am doing in the Nissan thats actually the same as in Reallife.
I can get all GT3 in between 1 Sekond besides the Nissan. He is 2 sek behind but i think Suzuka is the worst Track for the GTR.
Could you get also Numbers for the Viper Alex?


The setup I have for the SLS and Z4 are quite different, since I feel more understeer on the SLS and oversteer on the Z4, thus the setup between both are almost opposite.

Interestingly, I have more top-speed with the Z4, cornering speed is about the same but Z4 is slightly faster.


Here's my thought:

With the Ford and Z4, because extra weight is added, thus we can change the position of the ballast to adjust the handling, but the SLS is default 1350kg already thus less adjustment can be done.

Plus the lack of power, 455hp. I believe it's the one who needs the "upgrade" the most, the SLS is really slow....


Either we lower the hp on the Ford or increase the hp on the other two, or the rest of the contenders.


I will do more testing after my tennis session tonight, thus it will be late night, and I will perform a test on the Viper too.


:cheers::cheers:
 
To make Statements about Straight line speed the only thing that matters is Downforce and ride height.
They should be the same. Straight line speed hardly matters at all in Suzuka. GTR has the highest and still is the slowest car
I think the SLS drives fine and we should use him as a benchmark. For example punish the Ford and the z4 and buff the slower cars to the level of the SLS.
Nissan is defentily a lot slower than the SLS a lot.
For better understanding of the cars you can load your lap into the Datalogger and compare cornering Speed.
The z4 for example has the same Apex Speed than the SLS (both in Stock Settings besides Transmission) but the SLS loses a bit on entry because it understeers more on exit it depends on the corner out of slower the SLS is faster and out of fast corners the z4 is.

I have tested a lot and have gotten all the cars on the level of the SLS besides the Ford GT and the Nissan(+-0.5sek). I will PM the settings to tjger if he wants.
I can get the ford GT to lap 1:58 but then is even easier to drive and it wont make fun driving that car in a race because everyone is sooo much faster on the straights you will get eaten.
 
GREAT WORK Manny!!!! GREAT WORK...!!!!!

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:
I AGREE 100% :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
I watched the whole video and didn't miss an ounce of a crumb (don't know if you'll understand this expression, I've translated it literally from French... :lol:)!!!
(I'm sure @MRTeam will be satisfied regarding the last lap) :lol:

What a master piece, I love it! :drool: 👍 :D
Thanks a lot for having so much talent and for using it for us dear Manny!!! :bowdown: :cheers: :gtpflag:
 
Yeah i didnt know about that mistake from tjger till i watched the video.
In Reallife this would be a major accident.
Still soo close at the end
Great Work manny. Best part is me flashing lights to OB and I still need to outbrake him on the Edge Manny was not soo lucky
 
To make Statements about Straight line speed the only thing that matters is Downforce and ride height.
They should be the same. Straight line speed hardly matters at all in Suzuka. GTR has the highest and still is the slowest car
I think the SLS drives fine and we should use him as a benchmark. For example punish the Ford and the z4 and buff the slower cars to the level of the SLS.
Nissan is defentily a lot slower than the SLS a lot.
For better understanding of the cars you can load your lap into the Datalogger and compare cornering Speed.
The z4 for example has the same Apex Speed than the SLS (both in Stock Settings besides Transmission) but the SLS loses a bit on entry because it understeers more on exit it depends on the corner out of slower the SLS is faster and out of fast corners the z4 is.

I have tested a lot and have gotten all the cars on the level of the SLS besides the Ford GT and the Nissan(+-0.5sek). I will PM the settings to tjger if he wants.
I can get the ford GT to lap 1:58 but then is even easier to drive and it wont make fun driving that car in a race because everyone is sooo much faster on the straights you will get eaten.
Wow, impressive job Arveena... :eek:
Thanks for your effort! :bowdown: 👍
 
I use low downforce on both Z4 and SLS, especially on the SLS because, as I've said, it's lack of power.

they might both be able to reach similar speed at the end of the straight but depends which one rev more freely, in this case, I say the Z4.

Anyway, I don't want say too much on this topic since it is not the main purpose of the discussion.

But saying "straight line speed hardly matter at all in Suzuka" is a bit too much.

Because the favorite passing place(s) at Suzuka are the back straight before R130 and the main straight before the 1st corner, you need acceleration and speed at both places.


Regarding the cornering speed, I can't use Data Logger because 99% of my testing are done online thus Data Logging is not available.

But I check cornering speed on during the driving on each thus I know what is the cornering speed on each.



back to business, the main purpose of this discussion is to even out the field.

the things are:

1) should we lower the speed of the fast car therefore the whole field will be slow, or, we should try to faster the slower car thus make the whole field fast, thus more excitement.

2) Aveena can drive the Ford @ Suzuka in 1:56.1, but it doesn't mean other Ford drivers can do the same, sorry to say and no offense, I don't think Ole or Manny can have a 1:56.1 with the Ford in Suzuka, if we penalize all the Ford drivers, it will affect at least Ole and Manny very badly. I don't think it is a good idea for them.

3) If we lower the hp of the Ford, it will have slower straight line speed but the cornering speed won't be affected, thus it's like driving a go kart.



This is what I feel:

What Aveena so far is saying I am too fast in the Ford, cos I won the Spa race and set a single fastest laptime that he says it's impossible to do with another car, and the Ford is too easy to drive thus it gives me upper.

But I think Aveena doesn't know I was battling with EHTeam (whose driving the Z4) the whole time until EHTeam change to RM on his last stint thus I was pulling 1sec per lap on him.

And Aveena also doesn't know I didn't have a spin out or whatever big mistake throughout the whole 90 mins, the biggest I've made was overshoot corner-1 on lap 5(?) thus lost a position to Mphile.

And he also doesn't know I carry the least fuel-load since the 1st pit-stop thus I can do faster laptime because I have my strategy plan-out, thus lighter fuel load = faster laptime.



This is what I suggest:

I would like to have those slower car getting an upgrade, especially for the SLS. Meanwhile I will accept a penalty on my Ford GT, but ONLY on my Ford GT, nothing apply onto Ole and Manny's, it's just not fair to them.




This is what I think it's workable:


1) Increase the hp of the SLS to a certain level thus it is competitive, although its cornering speed might be slow, but we should compensate it by giving it more acceleration.

2) To the others, lighter the weight or change the hp thus the power-to-weight-ratio of all are adjusted to a very similar level.

3) Penalize my Ford GT to the same laptime level to the rest of the field.




CAD$0.02
 
To add to Alcheng's post, the two Corvettes at Spa had excellent handling, and really good wear-I calculated 24 laps for gas and up to 45 for tires-but absolutely lacked in power. I think maybe bumping the Vette's power to at least match the middle of the pack will be OK.
 
Of course I know everything about the Spa Race I was part of it.
I know you are battleling for with EH etc. I didnt say anything about driver Performance at all.
I came to the Race fully unprepared and trained in the Race. I know EH was fast in the Z4 my fastest Laptime was even faster than his as i got used to the Track.

I would never get you even in a Ford GT because of lack of Preparation and mistakes (I am fast but not consistent at 3 in the moring :P). You deserved that win. The Problem with is that Suzuka spreads the field of cars more than spa and Daytona.

And my point was not to make the cars worse for someone but to make them equal. When mphile and i tested the Ford at Daytona there were so many people whining that we did not drive it at the end.

Still i was in my second lap with the Ford 1.5sek faster than with the BMW in SPA in Suzuka the Gap is 2 to the next car and 5 to the last which is too much.


The only questions are.

Does everyone want a field of equal cars or not?
Shall the best car or the best driver/car Combo win?

You can also make the field even on drivers I also have no Problem with that like they do in touring cars.
Winner +100kg second +50 etc.
 
Well what's interesting is the Power/Weight ratio.
If you try to equal them out. The field is still out of alignment.

I think PD has modeled the cars very accurately. So much that the car's handling characteristics show themselves.

We'll see tonight.


Shooting Arrows will take a back seat unfortunately.


The Spa race. Had we had 16 cars. :nervous:
Manny would have ripped his hair out trying to decide which action to capture. :mad:

So to make it easier on him. Please keep the number of participates at Suzuka to 7. ;)
There's no need for 16 cars on the track. :lol:
 
The only questions are.

Does everyone want a field of equal cars or not?
Shall the best car or the best driver/car Combo win?

@MRTeam did the best he could at the time, preparing specs to achieve balance of performance across the whole series at a variety of tracks.

The top 3 in some race or other were given 1st choice of which car they would drive for the duration of the championship.

Everyone was due to make the best of what they had for each race.


A choice was made to re-balance the specs. This came as a result of pressure from the drivers & has potential pros & cons.

The ultimate "pro" in my mind, would be if everyone was happy. The ultimate "con" would be if everyone gets upset.

The decision to make changes has caused a lot of discussion & extra work. Admittedly, the drivers are taking on as much of that work as they can & providing their views as things develop.
If the ongoing debate is all part of the enjoyment then things are all good.
If it is causing headaches, it didn't need to be done.

For me. I don't see anything wrong with the original way that things were set to be done, but as long as everyone is having a good time & not getting upset then that's all good too.

As with everyone else, that's just my 2 pence.
:)

Edit:
& I'm in the Merc, which is considered to be slow.
 
The only questions are.

Does everyone want a field of equal cars or not?
Shall the best car or the best driver/car Combo win?


The answer is:

Top 3 finsihers from Daytona and Spa didn't complain anything and the mid-field pack had so much fun battling and banging each other for the whole 24 hours, so it's up to the organizer....

but if there's any changes, I really would suggest more power on the Vette and SLS.



My personal opinion:

In real racing, always the faster car + faster drivers win, ie McLaren-Honda+ Senna/Prost/Hakkinen, Ferrari + Schumacher/Raikkonen, Red Bull + Vettel, Mercedes + Hamilton.


It's a combination of everything.

The most important thing is are we happy with what we have right now.

:cheers::cheers:
 
I'm really envying you guys, who understand about testing, feeling, tuning the cars. :eek: My respect to you!... :bowdown:
Please learn me this "science"!!! :rolleyes: :D

Gran Turismo 201 - The "science" of Tuning: Feeling the Car's Every Twitch (EH Team edition)

Not all of us are given to tuning cars well right away, I definitely started that way. The first car I tuned in GT6 was the Premium Renault Clio 2011, and it was kinda fastish but there was a massive problem, nearly every curb the car touched suddenly meant I was driving a front wheel drive bicycle for the next few seconds. So my first few months of GT6 were a little rough around the edges, but I've slowly begun developing and perfecting tuning philosophies for all the different car layouts over time. I have also found 3 things that are the absolute platform of the car and most everything else needs to be changed if any of these attributes are changed significantly:
  • weight distribution
  • spring rates
  • ride height
These three things in that order are the absolute structure of your setup, and should be left alone for the most part except for minor tweaks. All the other attributes should be adjusted around these settings, transmission included. Here's an analysis of each piece of the car that can be tuned.


  • Ride Height - should be set low but not too low, staying generally 10-20 above the minimum is advisable. On tracks where high amounts of speed are carried through banked corners this should be set higher to accommodate for the overall compressing of the entire suspension so to ensure the car does not bottom out (scrape the track) at any point in the corner. It can also be used to adjust the effectiveness of downforce.
  • Spring Rate - making a large change in this area will cause most other settings to be irrelevant to the car. High spring rate (above 19-19.50 in race cars and 13-13.50 in road cars) is unadvisable because the entire system can be thought of as a team. When the springs or any other component are taking the brunt of the work it causes the car to grip less and cause more tire wear. Low spring rates (these vary more from car to car) can help the car turn better but also increase tire wear, and can do more so than high spring rates.
  • Dampers - a setting somewhere in the middle of the range will do you good to start in most applications, ovals being the exception with very low settings. One of the most effective settings of the dampers that can be adjusted is the rear extension. Raising it will bring understeer to the car and lowering it will bring oversteer. Adjustments of this particular setting should be done as a standalone tweak and most times a change of just one notch will be enough for the car. Adjusting the compression works the opposite, going up brings oversteer and down brings understeer. This idea applies the same way to the front dampers.
  • Anti Roll Bars - high settings of this part of the car are generally recommended. Even adjustment front to back will keep the balance of the car broadly the same, but going up in settings will do as the name says and decrease the amount of roll over the car has. Differing the correlation of the setting front to back will change the handling, with higher rear settings increasing oversteer and higher front settings increasing understeer.
  • Camber - not much to explain here since it still doesn't really work. So set at Zero front and back and carry on.
  • Toe angle - can be a very useful setting for a specific condition of the car, which is a lack or surplus of turn in to a corner. Using positive front toe will decrease turn in to some degree and using negative front toe will increase turn in. The rear toe can be used for overall stability of the car, especially when exiting corners. Positive rear toe will increase stability and negative rear toe will decrease it, but do be careful when adjusting toe in any form because too much in either direction can increase tire wear a noticeable amount.
  • Brakes - the higher this setting is, the higher your braking force will be. Higher front settings can increase understeer on turn in and higher rear settings will increase oversteer on turn in. Having higher overall settings, it will do this with ABS off, can bring the car close to locking up the tires so adjust here according to taste. Changing the setting of your brake bias will usually mean you need to adjust your differential braking sensitivity a little bit.
  • Transmission - You know what this thing does as an everyday job, what you may not know is what it does as a side job is help the car handle depending on the rpm run through the corner. The higher the car is in the rpm range the more it turns through corners, and turns a little less through the corner when the rpm are in the low to mid range. This doesn't necessarily apply to front wheel drive cars because higher rpms push out the drive wheels of any car through the corner.
  • Differential - this piece of equipment can be rather vexing at times, so here's a slightly easier way to adjust it. The initial torque controls how much the inside wheel turns while the throttle is being applied, and the acceleration sensitivity controls the outside wheel in the same situation. Adjusting up will increase rotation and down will decrease it. The braking sensitivity controls the stability of the car when the throttle is not being applied, regardless of the brakes being applied, however the difference is far more noticeable when brakes are not being applied. Adjusting this up will increase turn in understeer and adjusting down will increase turn in oversteer.
  • Downforce - you know this one's day job too, adjusting it can be tricky though. When making a change to the front or rear the amount you can do that will improve the car's handling is somewhat correlated to how much is applied to the opposite end of the car. This means it can take a few runs of adjustments to really dial in the settings so always be patient with it.
  • Ballast Positioning - fairly simple adjustment that affects the weight distribution, but some cars can be found to have more speed potential with a slightly rear biased balance, adjust with care.
Some things I have found out with certain layouts on platform are interesting indeed. I find on Front drive layouts it's better to send any ballast you may be forced to carry to the front of the car. What you should also do is have the rear springs significantly higher than the front to help promote turn in. This allows for exceptional adjustability of your line through pretty much any given corner by playing with the throttle.
FR cars have a tendency to vary in where they like the higher spring rate to be.
MR cars have to have something be relatively soft in the rear, usually dampers, to keep them from constantly spinning out.
RR, still in trial and error stage, definitely the most messed up of the bunch because no car does the same thing as another.
4WD in front engined layout, most of the adjusting you'll do will be in the differential and is very difficult to master.
4WD in mid engine layout is given generally to oversteer but can be remedied to some extent by sending a bit more power to the front. They are also not as differential dependent as their front engined brethren.

Feeling each thing in what the car is doing can be a little difficult because there are different varieties of how things happen, so here's a little list of some things that happen and what you should adjust to fix them
  • Sudden massive oversteer causing spinouts - check ride height is high enough, raise rear extension, lower rear springs
  • Sudden oversteer exiting a corner - lower differential acceleration, lower rear compression, raise rear extension raise rear ride height slightly and add a little rear downforce
  • Apex oversteer - lower rear springs, lower differential acceleration, raise front anti roll bar or lower rear anti roll bar
  • Lazy controllable oversteer - raise rear toe, lower differential initial torque
  • Corner entry oversteer - raise differential braking sensitivity, bias brake more to the front, raise front ride height slightly
  • Understeer in any of the above situations can be fixed most of the time by going the opposite direction in the adjustment for fixing oversteer.
Hope all of this is helpful to you and anyone else who reads it. Here's to better tunes and competition. :cheers:
 
Gran Turismo 201 - The "science" of Tuning: Feeling the Car's Every Twitch (EH Team edition)

Not all of us are given to tuning cars well right away, I definitely started that way. The first car I tuned in GT6 was the Premium Renault Clio 2011, and it was kinda fastish but there was a massive problem, nearly every curb the car touched suddenly meant I was driving a front wheel drive bicycle for the next few seconds. So my first few months of GT6 were a little rough around the edges, but I've slowly begun developing and perfecting tuning philosophies for all the different car layouts over time. I have also found 3 things that are the absolute platform of the car and most everything else needs to be changed if any of these attributes are changed significantly:
  • weight distribution
  • spring rates
  • ride height
These three things in that order are the absolute structure of your setup, and should be left alone for the most part except for minor tweaks. All the other attributes should be adjusted around these settings, transmission included. Here's an analysis of each piece of the car that can be tuned.


  • Ride Height - should be set low but not too low, staying generally 10-20 above the minimum is advisable. On tracks where high amounts of speed are carried through banked corners this should be set higher to accommodate for the overall compressing of the entire suspension so to ensure the car does not bottom out (scrape the track) at any point in the corner. It can also be used to adjust the effectiveness of downforce.
  • Spring Rate - making a large change in this area will cause most other settings to be irrelevant to the car. High spring rate (above 19-19.50 in race cars and 13-13.50 in road cars) is unadvisable because the entire system can be thought of as a team. When the springs or any other component are taking the brunt of the work it causes the car to grip less and cause more tire wear. Low spring rates (these vary more from car to car) can help the car turn better but also increase tire wear, and can do more so than high spring rates.
  • Dampers - a setting somewhere in the middle of the range will do you good to start in most applications, ovals being the exception with very low settings. One of the most effective settings of the dampers that can be adjusted is the rear extension. Raising it will bring understeer to the car and lowering it will bring oversteer. Adjustments of this particular setting should be done as a standalone tweak and most times a change of just one notch will be enough for the car. Adjusting the compression works the opposite, going up brings oversteer and down brings understeer. This idea applies the same way to the front dampers.
  • Anti Roll Bars - high settings of this part of the car are generally recommended. Even adjustment front to back will keep the balance of the car broadly the same, but going up in settings will do as the name says and decrease the amount of roll over the car has. Differing the correlation of the setting front to back will change the handling, with higher rear settings increasing oversteer and higher front settings increasing understeer.
  • Camber - not much to explain here since it still doesn't really work. So set at Zero front and back and carry on.
  • Toe angle - can be a very useful setting for a specific condition of the car, which is a lack or surplus of turn in to a corner. Using positive front toe will decrease turn in to some degree and using negative front toe will increase turn in. The rear toe can be used for overall stability of the car, especially when exiting corners. Positive rear toe will increase stability and negative rear toe will decrease it, but do be careful when adjusting toe in any form because too much in either direction can increase tire wear a noticeable amount.
  • Brakes - the higher this setting is, the higher your braking force will be. Higher front settings can increase understeer on turn in and higher rear settings will increase oversteer on turn in. Having higher overall settings, it will do this with ABS off, can bring the car close to locking up the tires so adjust here according to taste. Changing the setting of your brake bias will usually mean you need to adjust your differential braking sensitivity a little bit.
  • Transmission - You know what this thing does as an everyday job, what you may not know is what it does as a side job is help the car handle depending on the rpm run through the corner. The higher the car is in the rpm range the more it turns through corners, and turns a little less through the corner when the rpm are in the low to mid range. This doesn't necessarily apply to front wheel drive cars because higher rpms push out the drive wheels of any car through the corner.
  • Differential - this piece of equipment can be rather vexing at times, so here's a slightly easier way to adjust it. The initial torque controls how much the inside wheel turns while the throttle is being applied, and the acceleration sensitivity controls the outside wheel in the same situation. Adjusting up will increase rotation and down will decrease it. The braking sensitivity controls the stability of the car when the throttle is not being applied, regardless of the brakes being applied, however the difference is far more noticeable when brakes are not being applied. Adjusting this up will increase turn in understeer and adjusting down will increase turn in oversteer.
  • Downforce - you know this one's day job too, adjusting it can be tricky though. When making a change to the front or rear the amount you can do that will improve the car's handling is somewhat correlated to how much is applied to the opposite end of the car. This means it can take a few runs of adjustments to really dial in the settings so always be patient with it.
  • Ballast Positioning - fairly simple adjustment that affects the weight distribution, but some cars can be found to have more speed potential with a slightly rear biased balance, adjust with care.
Some things I have found out with certain layouts on platform are interesting indeed. I find on Front drive layouts it's better to send any ballast you may be forced to carry to the front of the car. What you should also do is have the rear springs significantly higher than the front to help promote turn in. This allows for exceptional adjustability of your line through pretty much any given corner by playing with the throttle.
FR cars have a tendency to vary in where they like the higher spring rate to be.
MR cars have to have something be relatively soft in the rear, usually dampers, to keep them from constantly spinning out.
RR, still in trial and error stage, definitely the most messed up of the bunch because no car does the same thing as another.
4WD in front engined layout, most of the adjusting you'll do will be in the differential and is very difficult to master.
4WD in mid engine layout is given generally to oversteer but can be remedied to some extent by sending a bit more power to the front. They are also not as differential dependent as their front engined brethren.

Feeling each thing in what the car is doing can be a little difficult because there are different varieties of how things happen, so here's a little list of some things that happen and what you should adjust to fix them
  • Sudden massive oversteer causing spinouts - check ride height is high enough, raise rear extension, lower rear springs
  • Sudden oversteer exiting a corner - lower differential acceleration, lower rear compression, raise rear extension raise rear ride height slightly and add a little rear downforce
  • Apex oversteer - lower rear springs, lower differential acceleration, raise front anti roll bar or lower rear anti roll bar
  • Lazy controllable oversteer - raise rear toe, lower differential initial torque
  • Corner entry oversteer - raise differential braking sensitivity, bias brake more to the front, raise front ride height slightly
  • Understeer in any of the above situations can be fixed most of the time by going the opposite direction in the adjustment for fixing oversteer.
Hope all of this is helpful to you and anyone else who reads it. Here's to better tunes and competition. :cheers:

Holly SH:censored:T I'm going to copy and paste this, print it out and sell it to make a quick buck!!!

Lol :lol:

Really good information :bowdown:
 
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