Spirituality, global hoax or personal truth?

[Swift]

You didn't answer my question. Is it the evidence you want me to try to see, or is it that you want me to try being spiritual.

So in your mind to attempt to be spiritual means to be successful. So anyone who is not spiritual has not really tried. Not only do you have no basis for that assumption, it is self-reinforcing.

You really like to twist words around don't you.

The evidence of spirituality is there when you experience it. If you make an open hearted attempt to embrace God, it will be quite evident. If you don't, chances are you'll never get your evidence.

As far as being successful, I haven't the slightest clue what you mean by successful.

 

[Duke]

I'm just saying try it. I've lived without God so I know what it's like. Many people are afraid to give it a shot simply because they believe that they might be convinced.

But here's the problem: I can't just decide what I want to believe first and then hope I find evidence to back it up. I can't invite God into my life on the assumption that He'll show up somehow.

My rational mind just doesn't work that way. I didn't jump to my current philosophical position and then wait for the details to fill themselves in. I got here by carefully considering 30 years' worth of life and all that fills it, a piece at a time, and by deciding what ideas best fit the available evidence every step of the way.

If I did decide to invite God into my life, which god do I invite? He is by definition too big for our human minds to understand. So how do I know which door gets the prize? There are myriad gods from which to choose - and that's in the unlikely event that any one of the world's religions is actually right. God could well be totally unlike anything humans have even imagined. How do I know, when there is no evidence on which to base a decision?

I didn't wake up one morning when I was 10 or 15 or 20 or 40 and decide "I want to grow up to be an atheist." I got here as the result of the long process of weighing all the events I've observed in the world. All of my philosophy is based in everything I've experienced. Without any evidence that contradicts my philosophy, I can't see any reason to dismiss all that and hope something will come to fill the resulting void. There's no void now - why would I create one?

 

[smellysocks12]

Uh...yeah. Powder. Uh....hmm....

Try it. I'm not asking you for money, now or later. I'm just saying try it. I've lived without God so I know what it's like. Many people are afraid to give it a shot simply because they believe that they might be convinced.

I did actually, as a kid I never understood why people wouldn't believe in god... hell, I didn't even know there were people who weren't catholic or baptized... dumb dumb.


After giving it some thought while growing older I figured out for myself that any church is selling bull****, even if there is something they're just claiming to know things of which no evidence exists. If it's true they're just lucky guessers.

 

[PS]

I'm not sure if this qualifies as off-topic, but under the circumstances wouldn't this thread also allow me to form a similar one on say...atheism, satanism, Nietscheism even?

Think of it as a spinoff thread, and I can answer all of your questions about my religion. Because the world isn't Christian, you know.

 

[James2097]

I agree with Einstien. I am in awe of nature, and of how the universe works - I realise my tiny place in the universe and know I'll never understand even 1% of its immense complexity. I stare in wonder at the beautiful things in life, things in nature... This could possibly be constrewed as being spiritual, but to me the wonder is that I don't know exactly how the world works - its actually the mystery thats appealing, why do I find the world beautiful, like a nice sunset, rainforest, or a glint off a wave?

I love this beauty and infinate complexity of nature, the universe and everything. But to me there is no proof and it seems totally illogical to conclude there is some kind of divine being that 'makes' things beautiful for us. Beauty is in human's eyes, its in our perception of our environment. A hypothetical alien who lives on a planet with the atmosphere of venus will find different things beautiful, he would think Earth horrible and ugly in the same way we would hate living on venus with all its poisonous gasses/climate.

 

[Funkshen]

To be honest, im a very religious guy. I have been going to church ever since i was born (with my parents), and now i go on my own consent.
To me it gives me a comfort to know i can go to church of a sunday, and feel totally relaxed, to feel as though any issue i am encountering at that time means nothing for my eternal well being. Sunday is a day i look foward to in the week.

I believe (personally ofcoarse) that my spirituality is much more than my consciousness. I believe that we were spirits before we came to our earth, i believe that our physical body's enclose spirits on this earth. and i believe our spirits will live on for ever after our time is due. So i believe our spirits are eternal.

As "Swift" does. I also have a personal one-to-one relationship with my saviour Jesus Christ and i know he watches over me. I have gained many blessings from him, and i don't know where i would be today without him, i cannot thank him enough for what he has done for me.

Edit: I don't want any arguments coming from my post, i do not judge others on what the believe or the way they act, so treat me with the same respect.

 

[Blake]

When I was young I never really believed in anything (however I was baptized Catholic), then I met a friends who had a very religious family and whenever I'd come over to play on the sabbath I'd get locked in the house with them and be preached at for hours on end.

They started to get to me and I started to talk to god a little, then time passed and I became a non-believer again.

Then a year or two later when we had scripture I hated the Christian scripture so I followed a friend to Catholic scripture and there I was for 1 and a half years. At this point I was really starting to get into it and stuff.

Then I went to high school where for the first 6 months or so I acted like a good little Catholic, or tried to. Then I sort of started paying attention to myself again and forgot about God, etc. and in the end I started to do a bit of thinking about it and for a long while I didn't know whether I believed or not. I can now state that I don't.

I believe my 'spirituality' is simply my consciousness. I believe when my heart and brain stop operating that that will be it, no more, over. It may seem strange but I am much more comfortable with 'death' than I am with the prospect of 'I better be good or I'll end up being tortured for all eternity'.

At times I find it strange to think of everything just stopping, but then I realise that's what happens every night, nothing. Just darkness, silence, and I'm not even aware of it. I feel that's what death will be like, and I'm not saddened by that because I wont be aware. I find it very comforting that when my brain stops functioning there will be no torture or pain, it will all be over.

Blake

 

[James2097]

All the stuff Blake said

Yeah thats pretty much how I feel (although I wasn't ever a believer, I was always far too critical to swallow Religious Education classes at school - but I did wonder if God existed as a very young boy - I was still comfortable not believing in God even if he did exist I suppose. Going to church wasn't exactly a 6 year old's idea of fun...).

About death, when you go to bed each night you're not aware of the EXACT moment you go to sleep. I think death will be similar. The worst would be a long painful death, I think its potentially very scary if you're in a position where you know you're actually going to die, that this is THE TIME, but if its kinda just random and painless (and not too early) then I'm fine with it.

Besides, even if you're not religious, your "soul" still lives on in the memories of friends/children etc whom are still alive, also in photos, things you did like art, music recordings, things you made etc etc. There will still be something of yourself existing, and I take a lot of comfort in that at least.

 

[kikie]

Actually, "spirituality" is the wrong word. What you mean is the paranormal and mysterious things.

Sprirtuality = the opposite of the physical ==> the psychological, the spiritual
It is also religion based with its roots in Christianity.
It is a spiritual (psychological) attidude to life.

 

[Sage]

At times I find it strange to think of everything just stopping, but then I realise that's what happens every night, nothing. Just darkness, silence, and I'm not even aware of it. I feel that's what death will be like, and I'm not saddened by that because I wont be aware. I find it very comforting that when my brain stops functioning there will be no torture or pain, it will all be over.

And for the second time on GTP, I feel compelled to pull out one of my favorite quotes of all time :

“Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.” – Epicurus

The world existed for a long time before I was alive, and I didn't know about it – nor did I care, since I didn't have the capacity to!

 

[PS]

How come so many parents force beliefs and religion on to their kids, who don't know what to believe? You tell them "Here, god exists, and he'll smite you if you don't think so, now go to church", and he'll believe. By the time he's old enough to think for himself, then he's alreayd had 10 years of religous pressure on him and he's automatically whatever religion he was exercising -- without a chance of stopping. IMO, children shouldn't be forced into anything, regardless of whatever religion his/her parents are. It's no different with a family full of racists raising their child to be a racist, only one is teaching hate, the other is teaching about some guy 2000 years ago supposedly dying to save humanity from anihilation.

I've come to the conclusion, about 7-8 years ago, that it's a hoax.

 

[Pako]

How come so many parents force beliefs and religion on to their kids, who don't know what to believe? You tell them "Here, god exists, and he'll smite you if you don't think so, now go to church", and he'll believe. By the time he's old enough to think for himself, then he's alreayd had 10 years of religous pressure on him and he's automatically whatever religion he was exercising -- without a chance of stopping. IMO, children shouldn't be forced into anything, regardless of whatever religion his/her parents are. It's no different with a family full of racists raising their child to be a racist, only one is teaching hate, the other is teaching about some guy 2000 years ago supposedly dying to save humanity from anihilation.

I've come to the conclusion, about 7-8 years ago, that it's a hoax.

Sorry man, there's a HUGE difference between a White Hood telling his kids to spit on sub-human races and a Biblically faithful parent teaching his kids that Jesus loves them no matter what.

 

[a6m5]

How come so many parents force beliefs and religion on to their kids, who don't know what to believe? You tell them "Here, god exists, and he'll smite you if you don't think so, now go to church", and he'll believe. By the time he's old enough to think for himself, then he's alreayd had 10 years of religous pressure on him and he's automatically whatever religion he was exercising -- without a chance of stopping. IMO, children shouldn't be forced into anything, regardless of whatever religion his/her parents are. It's no different with a family full of racists raising their child to be a racist, only one is teaching hate, the other is teaching about some guy 2000 years ago supposedly dying to save humanity from anihilation.

I've come to the conclusion, about 7-8 years ago, that it's a hoax.

I'm sorry to jump in out of nowhere, but I totally disagree with this. I think Parents have every right to guide their kids with religion. You don't believe in religion? fine, but as Pako said, HUGE difference between taking your kids to church and taking your kids to KKK convention(or whatever they call it).

If the kid decides that religion is not for him/her when they turn 18, then that's for him/her to decide. I don't buy this argument that kids with Christian parents would automatically turn into Christians themselves.
Following is the case with 100% of the people I know. 100%. :

Christians believe in their religion, because they believe God is real. All my friends who doesn't believe in God, it didn't matter if their parents were religious or not. They just don't believe. Many of those people I know have religious parents, and when they talk about their parents religion, they roll their eyes.

 

[James2097]

Sorry man, there's a HUGE difference between a White Hood telling his kids to spit on sub-human races and a Biblically faithful parent teaching his kids that Jesus loves them no matter what.

Don't know why but I just thought of Ned Flanders.

PS's analogy was extreme and a bit silly, but his basic point is a good one - everyone should discover which religion (if any) is right for them for themselves. Of course PS is gonna overstate the point cause he's a crazy Marilyn Manson fan... moving right along boys and girls...

For instance, I know my Mum was quite annoyed at being forced by her "loving" parents to go to church every sunday for years and years growing up... She had made up her mind that she didn't believe in what she was hearing from the church, she had read a lot of scientific books and was much more logical in her outlook - evolution etc. I don't like it when religion (of any persuasion) is forced on people (bloody mormans knocking on your door at 8am on a sunday!). Whats wrong with saying something like "I love you. So does Mummy, more than anything in the world", when tucking kids into bed? Surely thats more immediately important and relevant to how the kids gonna feel about life.

And then: "Hey man, I"m going to church, do you wanna come? Daddy will still love you the same if you don't want to come."
Not: "Hey man get in the car, otherwise God won't love you. You gotta come to church..."

Don't hide your own faith, but be neutral regarding whether others want to share it. This is very hard to do for most religious types (spreading faith is self-affirming), but is incredibly helpful (if done well) for making non-believers not get annoyed with you. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a note to any religious people who try a bit too hard to 'spread the word'.

 

[a6m5]

Don't know why but I just thought of Ned Flanders.

PS's analogy was extreme and a bit silly, but his basic point is a good one - everyone should discover which religion (if any) is right for them for themselves. Of course PS is gonna overstate the point cause he's a crazy Marilyn Manson fan... moving right along boys and girls...

For instance, I know my Mum was quite annoyed at being forced by her "loving" parents to go to church every sunday for years and years growing up... She had made up her mind that she didn't believe in what she was hearing from the church, she had read a lot of scientific books and was much more logical in her outlook - evolution etc. I don't like it when religion (of any persuasion) is forced on people (bloody mormans knocking on your door at 8am on a sunday!). Whats wrong with saying something like "I love you. So does Mummy, more than anything in the world", when tucking kids into bed? Surely thats more immediately important and relevant to how the kids gonna feel about life.

And then: "Hey man, I"m going to church, do you wanna come? Daddy will still love you the same if you don't want to come."
Not: "Hey man get in the car, otherwise God won't love you. You gotta come to church..."

Don't hide your own faith, but be neutral regarding whether others want to share it. This is very hard to do for most religious types (spreading faith is self-affirming), but is incredibly helpful (if done well) for making non-believers not get annoyed with you. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a note to any religious people who try a bit too hard to 'spread the word'.

I do see your points. However, I gotta tell you. When I was a kid, or even when I was in my early 20's(I'm not very smart), I didn't choose what was best for me. If my mom let me eat potato chips and coke for dinner every night, I would have. OK, this too was little extreme, but I think you get my point. I believe most people are smart enough to decide things for themselves when they grow up, but if they are still a dependant of their parents, parents have every right to haul their as*es to the church on sunday IMO.

 

[Blake]

And for the second time on GTP, I feel compelled to pull out one of my favorite quotes of all time :

“Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.” – Epicurus

I really like that 👍

Blake

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

The reply to that statement is quite simple. You won't come back to christianity with that attitude. And it makes me sad to hear that.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.[/B]


Also, the scripture for what you previously quoted is:

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So by Reading this and the debate you had with Duke in this thread, what you're saying is the evidence of the existence of God is God himself? If I
just dive head-first into the religion, have "faith" that he is real, and by into the propaganda, I would find God? I'm sorry, but I'm not that gullible to do such a thing, I'm to self-centered.

 

[Zardoz]

...The evidence of spirituality is there when you experience it. If you make an open hearted attempt to embrace God, it will be quite evident. If you don't, chances are you'll never get your evidence...

Wow. You really can't see that you've described deliberate self-delusion as "evidence", can you? Total, willful suspension of disbelief is not "evidence".

A rush of emotion that is the result of a conscious attempt to work ourselves up into a state that causes us to get that very rush of emotion is not "evidence". The rush that people describe as "feeling the Spirit" is nothing more than a blast of adrenaline flowing through their veins, induced by a deliberate psychological process. It is not "evidence" of "the Spirit being upon them".

Many of the Islamic terrorist suicide bombers embark on their missions because they delude themselves into believing a fantastic story that terrorist group leaders feed them: They are told that if they die martyring themselves by striking a blow for Islam, they are guaranteed that they will spend eternity in the company of 72 young ladies who will devote themselves to giving them absolutely anything they want, forever.

Martyr yourself for The Cause, and you get 72 sweeties all to yourself, for eternity. The suicide bombers believe this fantastic nonsense because they so very desperately want to believe it.

Are you sure, Swift, that you believe all that you believe because there is "proof" and "evidence" that its all true, or because you want so badly to believe it that nothing could ever make you feel otherwise?

I look at the thousands of distinct belief systems existing today and throughout history, and see only desperate attempts by people just like me to deal with the great fear we all have: We are so frightened by the prospect of our existence coming to an end that we concoct fantastic, detailed, elaborate mythologies in order to convince ourselves that when the electrical activity in our brain stops, somehow we will go on.

I'm sorry, but all I hear when people speak of an afterlife, and a place to go when we die, is a desperate attempt to come to grips with that great fear of non-existence. I've been listening all my life, and all I hear is a self-delusional stream of fantasy, superstition, and mythology.

It is the common thread that unites all humanity, and proves how much alike we all are, despite differences in culture, society, and race. At the core of our beings, at the most basic emotional level, we all want to exist forever, and never really "die". We'll buy into almost any belief system that makes us feel that we'll somehow do just that.

 

[Swift]

So by Reading this and the debate you had with Duke in this thread, what you're saying is the evidence of the existence of God is God himself? If I
just dive head-first into the religion, have "faith" that he is real, and by into the propaganda, I would find God? I'm sorry, but I'm not that gullible to do such a thing, I'm to self-centered.

This is why you fail....


Zardoz, you sound just like Danoff and well, most everyone else.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you can find God with unrefutable scientific evidence. But you except things everyday without "proof". Just the way things are.

I wasn't always a christian. Infact I was very much against organized religion. However my eyes were opened about 5 years ago. So I can talk objectively from both sides of the fence. I don't cling to it because I "just can't believe anything else" I cling to it because the truth has been revealed to me. Spirituality is personal and a little different for everyone.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you can find God with unrefutable scientific evidence. But you except things everyday without "proof". Just the way things are.

I do accept things, but that's different from believing in them.

 

[Swift]

I do accept things, but that's different from believing in them.

Could you ellaborate please?

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Ok, so I'm up late again..my g/f has just driven off and left a huge smile on my face That was quite something.

I've got Mauro Picotto playing, but in the context of this thread, and the hour, I should be listening to Insomnia by Faithless

Back to topic

Martyr yourself for The Cause, and you get 72 sweeties all to yourself, for eternity. The suicide bombers believe this fantastic nonsense because they so very desperately want to believe it.

Exactly...how do we tackle this kind of blind faith, fences, metal detectors and armed guards can only do so much. The suicide bomber is a frightening highly motivated threat. reminiscent of the Japanese Zero pilots, crude not very effective, but terrifying.
The 72 virgins thing always reminds me of a monkey dust sketch ( I recommend the animated series to everyone )
There are these young kids from Birmingham (hmmm strange coincidence) and Achmed is trying to convince them to carry out a bombing.
One young guy says, "tell me again what these virgins look like, because Mavis down the street is a virgin and she couldn't give it away"
I know I've quoted it before, it's still funny, and we need humour to get through tough times.

It is the common thread that unites all humanity, and proves how much alike we all are, despite differences in culture, society, and race. At the core of our beings, at the most basic emotional level, we all want to exist forever, and never really "die". We'll buy into almost any belief system that makes us feel that we'll somehow do just that.

Ahhh...the human condition
As a software engineer I have studied many aspects of metaphysics and psychology in a (vain) attempt to understand how to model it, how to simulate what it is to be, how to understand myself, what it is that makes these cells think they are...I gave up
Here's my view on AI and why it is so hard to model consciousness....blah blah

We humans are lucky...call it spirit, or empathy or compassion or whatever you want. I've said before I can recognise a strong spirit, a weak spirit, a damaged spirit etc
I'm not religious in any way, call me agnostic if you like, but you don't need a God to appreciate the human condition.
Can you feel the love

 

[VIPFREAK]

I hope this isn't taken as some kind of racism or something but when you hear things like "If you don't believe in god then you will go to hell". Or see how some of the people of Iraq were pursaded to be suicide bombers by using their faith as a hook line and sinker, then I have a problem with religion. I'd much rather believe in my own stuff than what others say.

 

[Slippery]

If you believe that then you believe in indivduality, but not a spirit. The very essence of spirit is something that is not inherently bound to your body forever.

Religion is something created by humans. It has no direct connection with god. It is more like an indirect connection.

I believe in spirituality but I feel humans have not developed it yet. We are still on the primitive stages when concerning spirituality.

I also think life is just another of the spiritual stages. Your body doesn't really belong to you at all. It is more like something borrowed until you step into the next stage.

 

[Danoff]

Could you ellaborate please?

I can accept that something is likely true and proceed as though it were without actually believing that I KNOW it is true.

For example, you don't KNOW for CERTAIN that it won't snow tomorrow - but you've accepted in your mind that it will not and have proceeded as though it were fact.

 

[Duke]

I also think life is just another of the spiritual stages. Your body doesn't really belong to you at all. It is more like something borrowed until you step into the next stage.

What makes you think this?

Of course, there is no evidence it's not true (negative evidence is a logical fallacy), but there's no real evidence it is true other than scripture of various flavors.

 

[Pako]

I can accept that something is likely true and proceed as though it were without actually believing that I KNOW it is true.

For example, you don't KNOW for CERTAIN that it won't snow tomorrow - but you've accepted in your mind that it will not and have proceeded as though it were fact.

It was 91 degrees here yesterday. Pretty sure that I can wear shorts tomorrow. In fact I'm planning on it and am making life judgements based on that. So this is a good thing right? I don't need to KNOW for CERTAIN that it won't snow tomorrow in order to start planning for tomorrow today. Faith in Christ (IMO) is very similar in you don't know when He's coming back but you live your life as though He's coming back today.

 

[Danoff]

Faith in Christ (IMO) is very similar in you don't know when He's coming back but you live your life as though He's coming back today.

But it isn't similar in that you think you KNOW that he is coming back at some point.

 

[Pako]

But it isn't similar in that you think you KNOW that he is coming back at some point.

I think I KNOW it will be warm enough to wear shorts tomorrow. See, it is similar.

 

[Danoff]

I think I KNOW it will be warm enough to wear shorts tomorrow. See, it is similar.

Not quite.


You don't think you KNOW it will be warm tomorrow. You don't think that you have certain knowledge that it will not snow... as evidenced by your following statement:

I don't need to KNOW for CERTAIN that it won't snow tomorrow

Here, you admit that you do not KNOW for CERTAIN, nor do you think that you do KNOW for CERTAIN (or you wouldn't have admitted that you do not).


No, you do not think you KNOW it will be warm enough to wear shorts. You think it will be warm enough to wear shorts and you plan accordingly.

But you don't just think that god exists. You think you KNOW God exists.

(see, I can't just say you KNOW god exists because, honestly, you don't. So I have to say you think you KNOW - implying that you could be wrong but you aren't aware of it)