Spirituality, global hoax or personal truth?

[Pako]

I think you think you know what I'm trying to say, but what I think I'm trying to say isn't what you think I really meant, you think?

Sorry, just had to through some humor in there. I was talking about not KNOWING when Christ was going to return, as it states in the Bible that no one knows the day or the hour that Christ will return but I will still plan accordingly. Just as I will plan to wear shorts tomorrow, I will be ready for Christ's return. Now IF I had spent the last few years in my basement with no natural light and Air Conditioned going full blast with no outside knowledge of what it might be like tomorrow, I probably wouldn't plan on wearing shorts if I were to go outside. It is because I am aware of my surroundings that I can plan accordingly.

 

[Danoff]

I was talking about not KNOWING when Christ was going to return, as it states in the Bible that no one knows the day or the hour that Christ will return but I will still plan accordingly. Just as I will plan to wear shorts tomorrow, I will be ready for Christ's return. Now IF I had spent the last few years in my basement with no natural light and Air Conditioned going full blast with no outside knowledge of what it might be like tomorrow, I probably wouldn't plan on wearing shorts if I were to go outside. It is because I am aware of my surroundings that I can plan accordingly.

There is nothing wrong with what you're saying. It's fairly parallel and I'm not arguing that.

What I'm arguing is a different fundamental difference. Neither of us thinks we have true knowledge of tomorrow's weather (or Christ's ETA). This is not in dispute. But one of us thinks that we do have true knowledge of Christ's existance. That is a belief.

The first part is acceptance since you have no reason to believe otherwise (given you assumptions about your surroundings). The second part is belief - wholly different from acceptance.

You believe it is true that God exists. You don't just figure it's probably true and plan accordingly (like wearing shorts), you think it is definite. That's different.

 

[Pako]

There is nothing wrong with what you're saying. It's fairly parallel and I'm not arguing that.

What I'm arguing is a different fundamental difference. Neither of us thinks we have true knowledge of tomorrow's weather (or Christ's ETA). This is not in dispute. But one of us thinks that we do have true knowledge of Christ's existence. That is a belief.

The first part is acceptance since you have no reason to believe otherwise (given you assumptions about your surroundings). The second part is belief - wholly different from acceptance.

You believe it is true that God exists. You don't just figure it's probably true and plan accordingly (like wearing shorts), you think it is definite. That's different.

I would say definitely! I plan on wearing shorts tomorrow, but if it starts to snow I'm going to change cloths because it's snowing. I used to live my life without boundary, trying to fill a void I had in me, I lived it accordingly until I met my Lord and Savior and through Him I have been saved and no longer need to search for that something to fill that void I had in me. It is Christ that filled that void and now I have a peace that overflows.

That's how I know Christ exists because he lives in me and fellow Christ followers around me.

Can I prove my life experience to you? No, but if you knew me before and after, you would know that I am a different person and I would tell you that it was Christ that changed me, just as I would tell you that I had to put on pants because it started to snow.

 

[Danoff]

I would say definitely!

Ok, it sounds like you agree with my statement earlier:

But it isn't similar in that you think you KNOW that he is coming back at some point.

 

[Swift]

Can I prove my life experience to you? No, but if you knew me before and after, you would know that I am a different person and I would tell you that it was Christ that changed me, just as I would tell you that I had to put on pants because it started to snow.

That's the challenge right there. Being a believer in Christ is like trying to tell someone what it feels like to win the super bowl. You can't possibly explain it unless you're there. We can tell you until we're blue in the face about Christ. But if you don't at least try it, it will never register.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you can find God with unrefutable scientific evidence. But you except things everyday without "proof". Just the way things are.

Bottom line... to accept things everyday without "proof" is not the same thing as believing something is true without "proof". So this argument doesn't hold water.

 

[Swift]

Bottom line... to accept things everyday without "proof" is not the same thing as believing something is true without "proof". So this argument doesn't hold water.

Do you believe that man has been to the moon?

 

[Pako]

Ok, it sounds like you agree with my statement earlier:

I agree that knowing God exists is not the same as thinking that it's possible that God exists. It's is through my life experience that I KNOW Christ exists in my life. It is through my experience that YOU could think it is possible that God exists.

That is the difference.

 

[Danoff]

Do you believe that man has been to the moon?

I don't believe in anything other than that I exist.

I agree that knowing God exists is not the same as thinking that it's possible that God exists. It's is through my life experience that I KNOW Christ exists in my life. It is through my experience that YOU could think it is possible that God exists.

That is the difference.

...and you agree that the way you think that it is likely the weather will be a certain way or the way you think that it is likely that reality exists as you percieve it is not the same thing as thinking you KNOW in an absolute sense that God exists.

 

[Pako]

...and you agree that the way you think that it is likely the weather will be a certain way or the way you think that it is likely that reality exists as you percieve it is not the same thing as thinking you KNOW in an absolute sense that God exists.

Yeah.....not quite sure what you're trying to say so not quite sure how to answer that.

Knowing something to be true, is different than planning for something that might happen in the near future. Unfortunately I don't have the gift of clairvoyancey or the gift of prophecy so there is no way in knowing what the future holds. I can only speculate and plan accordingly based on what I know today. This deals with unknowns, like the weather tomorrow or Christs ETA.

Knowing Christs existence is based on specific events that have already happened to me personally. These events are as real as the air I breath. These events also reaffirm Christ's teachings in the Bible. So...we have this book written 2000+ years ago that explains how having Christ in my life will change me. Once I accepted Christ into my life, I was changed forever.

If the weather man says it will snow tomorrow and it does, then I will say that the weather man was right. On that same premise, the Bible said that having Christ in my life would change me and it did, so I say that the Bible is right and speaks a truth as it relates to my life. Then I hear how the same life changing event has happened to every other Christ follower that I have confided in. The evidence for me is too overwhelming to ignore.

 

[Zardoz]

...I used to live my life without boundary, trying to fill a void I had in me, I lived it accordingly until I met my Lord and Savior and through Him I have been saved and no longer need to search for that something to fill that void I had in me. It is Christ that filled that void and now I have a peace that overflows.

That's how I know Christ exists because he lives in me and fellow Christ followers around me...

Please do no take this as some sort of insult, but all I get from this is a statement that you adopted a belief system to fill a personal "void", and you feel a lot better because you adopted that belief system. Fine. I'm glad for you, but my problem with statements like these is that "believers" mistake feelings as absolute evidence.

You've come to the conclusion that the fact that you feel a lot better is some sort of proof. You feel better, so Jesus must really be the son of a God that must certainly exist, and all the things written in the scriptures thousands of years ago must be absolutely true. Otherwise, how could you feel so good?

Feeling good about something is not proof of anything other than the fact that it makes you feel better. An emotional response is not evidence of anything at all.

 

[Famine]

Just going to change TWO words in your post, Pako.

Then I hear how the same life changing event has happened to every other alien abductee that I have confided in. The evidence for me is too overwhelming to ignore.

See my point?

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Just going to change TWO words in your post, Pako.
See my point?

I can

 

[Pako]

Just going to change TWO words in your post, Pako.



See my point?

I see your point, although it's not relevant to the current discussion as there is no pre-written doctrine that is specific in how:

-The grand alien sent it's off-spring to earth to live among the earthlings
-The off-spring would be called the messiah later to be crucified by it's own people
-The off-spring would be seen doing miracles in front of thousands of people
-Offer eternal salvation for all of man kind through the sacrifice of it's own life
-After it died, it was resurrected where it walk among earthlings that it had grown to love

Yeah, I see your point, but it's pointing in the wrong direction.

 

[Pako]

Please do no take this as some sort of insult, but all I get from this is a statement that you adopted a belief system to fill a personal "void", and you feel a lot better because you adopted that belief system. Fine. I'm glad for you, but my problem with statements like these is that "believers" mistake feelings as absolute evidence.

You've come to the conclusion that the fact that you feel a lot better is some sort of proof. You feel better, so Jesus must really be the son of a God that must certainly exist, and all the things written in the scriptures thousands of years ago must be absolutely true. Otherwise, how could you feel so good?

Feeling good about something is not proof of anything other than the fact that it makes you feel better. An emotional response is not evidence of anything at all.

No offence taken. My life style was killing me, if I continued that lifestlye I would be dead today. That is more than a feeling.

 

[Famine]

I see your point, although it's not relevant to the current discussion as there is no pre-written doctrine that is specific in how:

-The grand alien sent it's off-spring to earth to live among the earthlings
-The off-spring would be called the messiah later to be crucified by it's own people
-The off-spring would be seen doing miracles in front of thousands of people
-Offer eternal salvation for all of man kind through the sacrifice of it's own life
-After it died, it was resurrected where it walk among earthlings that it had grown to love

Yeah, I see your point, but it's pointing in the wrong direction.

Not terribly familiar with the Raelians then?

 

[Smoke_U_24/7]

No offence taken. My life style was killing me, if I continued that lifestlye I would be dead today. That is more than a feeling.

Then how about a change of life-style? You don't nessesarily (did I spell that correctly? ) have to become a born again christian, but you can, i.e. get therapy.
Just because you got raped, or a loved-one died doesn't mean that Satan is out to get you.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

No offence taken. My life style was killing me, if I continued that lifestlye I would be dead today. That is more than a feeling.

How so? Have you seen your life in parallel...no I didn't think so.
What you are describing is still a hunch or feeling that lacks proof or evidence.

The same kind of feeling that makes people think that they are Napoleon, not just think they are, they KNOW they are...

 

[Pako]

Not terribly familiar with the Raelians then?

Wow...just got done reading how they got started in France. All due respect, but these guys are whacked and am embarrassed that you would compare this with Christianity.

If you think that Christianity and Raelianity are of equal falsehoods, it is no surprise why you have the opinions that you do.

 

[Pako]

Then how about a change of life-style? You don't nessesarily (did I spell that correctly? ) have to become a born again christian, but you can, i.e. get therapy.
Just because you got raped, or a loved-one died doesn't mean that Satan is out to get you.

I wish it were that easy, I wish I could just say, "not going to do that any more" and just stop. It just doesn't work that way for everyone. My change in lifestyle was the outward changes that were visible to other people. Danoff wants proof, I can't let him feel or see how my (for lack of a better term) heart has changed. He didn't know me before, and I can't hardly say he knows me now so there is no way that anything I can say here will convince or prove to him (or anyone else for that matter) that what I have experienced to be true. So people can either accept or reject my experience, but no one can disprove the events to be anything other than what I know them to be. Just as Danoff needs proof that it's God's handy work, I would need proof otherwise to change my views and beliefs. I don't mean to pick on Danoff, as there are a lot of people who are skeptic towards things that they don't understand, can't see or touch, or choose to ignore. That's fine, it's a take or leave it scenario. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me. Revelations 3:20 This means that Christ is waiting, but not forcing Himself on you. I can't force Christ on you either.

 

[Famine]

In essence they believe EVERYTHING you do - in fact they believe in all of the major prophets from all religions - including that man shall live for ever more, immortal, in a post-apocalypse Garden of Eden and the literal Creation myth (though not the Holy Trinity, but that's fundamentally ridiculous anyway), but they believe it's a big alien, rather than God.

But you can see how from your point of view how whacked they sound. Yeah right! A big alien called Elohim and his space vessels! What a bunch of loonies! Yet THEY believe they've had contact with Elohim, that they've experienced him and that their lives have changed through their relationship with him and that its consistent with their religious texts.

Change "Elohim" to "God". Now it's more-or-less precisely what you said earlier...

In fact Rael himself, while obviously barking mad, seems to be quite a genuine, respectful person and doesn't abuse his position as head of a religion for monetary gains.

I quite enjoy watching Christians - especially hardcore Creationists - try to distance themselves from Raelians.


We're basically back to Duke's perenially unanswered question. Raelians believe every bit as strongly as you that they've communed with (their) God, have a personal relationship with (their) God, can look forward to immortality after their deaths in the company of (their) God and it's all 100% consistent with (their) religious texts. So how do YOU know that YOUR choice of religion is right and theirs is wrong? More importantly, how can THEY know that THEIR choice of religion is right and yours is wrong?

How can you choose between belief systems which rely only on feelings?

 

[Pako]

Famine,

The most major difference is that Christianity is the foundation of Christ's teachings. Christ died as a ransomed sacrifice for all of mankind so that everyone, should they believe in him, would not parish, but have everlasting life. You don't see movies, A&E, Discovery Channel, History Channel, and other documentaries done on Elohim, but you sure see a lot on Christ. I'm not saying that these are irrefutable sources, but ask yourself why Christ is still so prominent in our society today, even at 2000 years after his death.

 

[Famine]

I asked myself. Apparently the answer is:

• The Crusades.
• Tithing n the Middle Ages (the church is still the second largest landowner in the UK as a result of this).
• Fanatical Catholicism in the Middle Ages.
• The Spanish Inquisition (anything counter to doctrine was heresy, punsihable by whatever the Inquistor felt like burning off at that particular moment).
• Tradition - one of the strongest forces in humanity.
• The Empire - Christian Britain ruled 1/3rd of the globe. You worshipped God or faced Imperialist's wrath.
• The slave trade - black Africans were picked up and deposited wherever Christian Americans and Christian Brits wanted them.
• Law - your country was founded on Christianity, as was mine to an extent. "God" appears many times in the legal foundations of both countries. Left hand on the Bible now - "I promise to tell the truth..."

We've had nearly 1,200 years of "Be Christian or face the consequences" and even today we have to pray to God in our National Anthem, and swear to God when testifying... It's engrained in our culture. More's the pity.

 

[Pako]

I asked myself. Apparently the answer is:

• The Crusades.
• Tithing n the Middle Ages (the church is still the second largest landowner in the UK as a result of this).
• Fanatical Catholicism in the Middle Ages.
• The Spanish Inquisition (anything counter to doctrine was heresy, punsihable by whatever the Inquistor felt like burning off at that particular moment).
• Tradition - one of the strongest forces in humanity.
• The Empire - Christian Britain ruled 1/3rd of the globe. You worshipped God or faced Imperialist's wrath.
• The slave trade - black Africans were picked up and deposited wherever Christian Americans and Christian Brits wanted them.
• Law - your country was founded on Christianity, as was mine to an extent. "God" appears many times in the legal foundations of both countries. Left hand on the Bible now - "I promise to tell the truth..."

We've had nearly 1,200 years of "Be Christian or face the consequences" and even today we have to pray to God in our National Anthem, and swear to God when testifying... It's engrained in our culture. More's the pity.

Some of the things you listed were clear exploits and power moves made by greedy people that should have known better. Catholicism, although Christian based is a works doctrine, where as Christianity is a faith doctrine. According to Christ, it isn't good works that gets you into heaven, it's simply believing in Him. So you have a church power (and when I say church in this instance, I mean a political, financial, and armored force) that forces a works doctrine on their people as a means of control, they are clearly not following Christ's teachings. Sounds like your gripe is with the Catholic Church, not Christ.

 

[Swift]

Some of the things you listed were clear exploits and power moves made by greedy people that should have known better. Catholicism, although Christian based is a works doctrine, where as Christianity is a faith doctrine. According to Christ, it isn't good works that gets you into heaven, it's simply believing in Him. So you have a church power (and when I say church in this instance, I mean a political, financial, and armored force) that forces a works doctrine on their people as a means of control, they are clearly not following Christ's teachings. Sounds like your gripe is with the Catholic Church, not Christ.

Exactly, that's what almost everyone says. "Look at all the bad things 'christians' have done." Well look at all the bad things non-christians have done. Look at all the corrupt politicians, lawyers, law enforcement officers and others. So, if they're bad. Then all of the people and the system in which they worked and believed must also be bad. Well, that's obviously not the case.

Also, Famine, in a lot of the things you mentioned, most people weren't able to read. So they didn't know the words and teachings of Christ. They had to rely on the priests and unfortunately, many of them got power hungry and used religion as a means of control.

Hitler was not a christian, neither was stalin. But they were rather "bad" people by the world's standards. Why didn't you put them in your list?

 

[Famine]

Some of the things you listed were clear exploits and power moves made by greedy people that should have known better. Catholicism, although Christian based is a works doctrine, where as Christianity is a faith doctrine. According to Christ, it isn't good works that gets you into heaven, it's simply believing in Him. So you have a church power (and when I say church in this instance, I mean a political, financial, and armored force) that forces a works doctrine on their people as a means of control, they are clearly not following Christ's teachings. Sounds like your gripe is with the Catholic Church, not Christ.

Conveniently forgetting that everything after tithing took place after Catholicism stopped being the major religion in the UK, thanks to a fat bastard known as King Henry VIII. That said, tithing also took place by the Church of England (that's Protestants), which is why the Church of England is still the second largest landowner in the UK.

Your country was founded on religion. "God" appears in your Constitution and National Anthem. My country also has "God" in its national anthem, invoking Him to protect the postholder of an inherited position He apparently created. Both our countries, outside the Catholic era, took part in the Slave Trade. My country, outside the Catholic era, took Protestantism to a third of the globe.

As I said, we've had 1,200 years of "Believe what we believe or else". Our countries are both "Christian" countries - just take a look at your currency.

You asked why God is ingrained in our consciousness. That is why. Like it or not, Catholics or not, that is the reason.


As for "gripe", I have none. I was merely answering your in-part-rhetorical question.

Also, Famine, in a lot of the things you mentioned, most people weren't able to read. So they didn't know the words and teachings of Christ. They had to rely on the priests and unfortunately, many of them got power hungry and used religion as a means of control.

Hitler was not a christian, neither was stalin. But they were rather "bad" people by the world's standards. Why didn't you put them in your list?

Because they're not part of the reason why God is ingrained in our culture.

Religion as a means of control, eh? Who'd have thunk it?

 

[Swift]

Because they're not part of the reason why God is ingrained in our culture.

Religion as a means of control, eh? Who'd have thunk it?

We've already established that religion IS NOT spirituality. So, that point doesn't make much sense in this context.

 

[Duke]

We've already established that religion IS NOT spirituality. So, that point doesn't make much sense in this context.

Then I ask again - how do you choose which spirit to believe in?

 

[Swift]

Then I ask again - how do you choose which spirit to believe in?

Ok, so you acknowledge spirts then?

 

[Duke]

No, not in any way do I acknowledge spirits. But you apparently do, and you've made a selection of one in which to place your faith and your life.

How did you make that choice?

And, if "spirituality is not religion", why have you chosen on of the world's largest and most over-organized religions?