Spirituality, global hoax or personal truth?

[Danoff]

Which of course depends on the situation. Sometimes questioning your boss gets you fired. Sometimes asking "why" at the end of every conversation with your boss will get you fired. Sometimes we have to do it first so that we can learn from it and answer the "whys" for ourselves.

Well if the answer is obvious it can make you look incompetent or belligerant. If you're a garbage man and your boss says that you should make your run and you say "why" - you SHOULD get fired. I wasn't talking about something that simple, rude, or dumb.

I ask why every day and it helps me do my job.

You have to apply a 4% loss on approach. Why? To account for pointing errors.
You have to reapply the data filter after you fit the solution. Why? Hmm... I should ask that.

 

[Pako]

But that is, in fact, completely tangential to my original post:

Pissing your boss off can get you fired, true. But the odds are that the boss has a rational explanation for why he wants you to do something, or he won't be boss too long. Whether he feels like explaining it is immaterial.

But God had no rational explanation, of course; he didn't need one. He simply defined something arbitrarily as lethal, he made it so, and then he punished Adam and Eve for questioning that lethality. It was a circular, and largely self-fulfilling, prophecy.

Again, what was death to Adam and Eve? They had never seen anything die before. The concept would have been foreign and any explanation other than "I am the Lord, your God. Obey what I command" would have been futile. God gave man freewill, Satan knew this and persuaded Eve that this knowledge was something that she was entitled to, that this knowledge would make her as great as God. She soon found out that this was not the case.

What I didn't understand is why God put the fruit there to begin with. Why would Adam and Eve have to prove their love and obedience to God? The reason was to allow us to experience our freewill. Choosing to eat or not to eat of the fruit was a sole act of experiencing freewill. It wasn't for God's self fulfillment.

 

[Danoff]

Choosing to eat or not to eat of the fruit was a sole act of experiencing freewill. It wasn't for God's self fulfillment.

...and the lesson is that you are not free. That you are not your own master. You are subservient to your one who is your superior - one who lords over you.

The lesson is that you are bad - incapable of policing your own actions. That it is God who lays down the law and that you must try follow this law - even though you will not be able to.

It is a lesson of guilt inherited from a sin we did not commit. It is the lesson that man was Gods first - most pure creation and the woman was second, and less pure.

 

[a6m5]

...and the lesson is that you are not free. That you are not your own master. You are subservient to your one who is your superior - one who lords over you.

The lesson is that you are bad - incapable of policing your own actions. That it is God who lays down the law and that you must try follow this law - even though you will not be able to.

It is a lesson of guilt inherited from a sin we did not commit. It is the lesson that man was Gods first - most pure creation and the woman was second, and less pure.

You might be 100% right, but I don't think it's that simple, myself. Sometimes, I wish everything was black & white, so average people(like myself) can comprehend them.

 

[Pako]

...and the lesson is that you are not free. That you are not your own master. You are subservient to your one who is your superior - one who lords over you.

The lesson is that you are bad - incapable of policing your own actions. That it is God who lays down the law and that you must try follow this law - even though you will not be able to.

It is a lesson of guilt inherited from a sin we did not commit. It is the lesson that man was Gods first - most pure creation and the woman was second, and less pure.

We all have freewill to choose who we will be subservient to; whether it's God, your job, your car, sex, drugs, money.......you get to pick your god. The second part to that lesson that you described is that you can be saved from your actions through His son Jesus. You can read all about salvation through Christ in the New Testament.

 

[Grand Prix]

So, Adam and Eve mated and had children, and those children mated with each other for more children. So technically we're all inbred. You might say that Adam and Eve didn't know any better, but didn't they have children after they ate the Apple of Knowledge? And did black people pop out of nowhere, or - dare I say it - did their skin colour evolve over thousands and thousands of years of sun exposure, long before the first white man and white woman existed?

 

[a6m5]

So, Adam and Eve mated and had children, and those children mated with each other for more children. So technically we're all inbred. You might say that Adam and Eve didn't know any better, but didn't they have children after they ate the Apple of Knowledge? And did black people pop out of nowhere, or - dare I say it - did their skin colour evolve over thousands and thousands of years of sun exposure, long before the first white man and white woman existed?

Good question. I was wondering about that myself. I don't know about you guys, but I think the Bible left some parts out on purpose. We'd be able to understand/comprehend lot of things today, but people from thousands of years ago? Probably not.

 

[Danoff]

We all have freewill to choose who we will be subservient to; whether it's God, your job, your car, sex, drugs, money.......you get to pick your god.

Or the lack thereof.

 

[Pako]

So, Adam and Eve mated and had children, and those children mated with each other for more children. So technically we're all inbred. You might say that Adam and Eve didn't know any better, but didn't they have children after they ate the Apple of Knowledge? And did black people pop out of nowhere, or - dare I say it - did their skin colour evolve over thousands and thousands of years of sun exposure, long before the first white man and white woman existed?

If you go back to the origin of man, we are inbreed. The origin of the different races can be traced back to the Tower of Babel. You can read about it in Genesis, Chapter 11.

 

[Pako]

Or the lack thereof.

That's true although God's a little jealous in that He wants us to make Him the 1st priority in our lives. He doesn't want to take the back seat.

 

[Swift]

...and the lesson is that you are not free. That you are not your own master. You are subservient to your one who is your superior - one who lords over you.

The lesson is that you are bad - incapable of policing your own actions. That it is God who lays down the law and that you must try follow this law - even though you will not be able to.

It is a lesson of guilt inherited from a sin we did not commit. It is the lesson that man was Gods first - most pure creation and the woman was second, and less pure.

What law are you talking about? BTW, do you love your parents? If not, I'm sorry. But if you do, then you do your best to follow what they say, even when you don't understand why or how it will benifit you.

God is my eternal father. The "laws" that you talk about are simply rules that one follows when they LOVE God. If you have no love for God, and you obviously don't, you have no desire to follow his rules. So, for you to not be able to comprehend that concept doesn't surprise me.

People are not born good and ARE incapable of policing themselves. Do you have to teach a child to lie? cheat? Steal? be disrespectful, selfish, or to lash out in anger? Nope, you have to teach AGAINST all those things.

We are living in the era of Grace, not Law. We CANNOT be saved by works or by following the law. It is only through Grace.

 

[Danoff]

That's true although God's a little jealous in that He wants us to make Him the 1st priority in our lives. He doesn't want to take the back seat.

...or not even be in the car.

BTW, do you love your parents? If not, I'm sorry. But if you do, then you do your best to follow what they say, even when you don't understand why or how it will benifit you.

I love my parents but I know what's best for me a lot better than they do. That happened when I turned about 16 or 17. I don't do my best to follow what they say, I do my best not to argue with them.

If you have no love for God, and you obviously don't, you have no desire to follow his rules.

I have love for my parents and do not follow their rules. I love my wife but I would not follow any rules she laid out for me. I can love someone and not be willing to be their slave.

People are not born good and ARE incapable of policing themselves. Do you have to teach a child to lie? cheat? Steal? be disrespectful, selfish, or to lash out in anger? Nope, you have to teach AGAINST all those things.

No you don't. If that were true then civilization would never have occurred. A rational man can figure out what is right and wrong on his own.

We are living in the era of Grace, not Law. We CANNOT be saved by works or by following the law. It is only through Grace.

We are living in the era of REASON not Grace. WE CANNOT be saved by anything because we will all eventually cease to exist. Death is inevitable. I'm sorry that you wish you could live forever but it simply doesn't follow from our understanding of our universe.

 

[Swift]

...or not even be in the car.



I love my parents but I know what's best for me a lot better than they do. That happened when I turned about 16 or 17. I don't do my best to follow what they say, I do my best not to argue with them.


I have love for my parents and do not follow their rules. I love my wife but I would not follow any rules she laid out for me. I can love someone and not be willing to be their slave.

Yeah, right.

No you don't. If that were true then civilization would never have occurred. A rational man can figure out what is right and wrong on his own.

But we're not BORN that way. It must be taught to us. If left unchecked, people will grow up to be selfish, lie, etc.

We are living in the era of REASON not Grace. WE CANNOT be saved by anything because we will all eventually cease to exist. Death is inevitable. I'm sorry that you wish you could live forever but it simply doesn't follow from our understanding of our universe.

From your understanding of the universe, which is obviously nothing since you don't believe it exists, why am I concerned about that?

 

[Duke]

So, really, it still boils down to you guys know it because you know it, and you don't want to know anything else.

Well, I tried to get you to explain it.

 

[Swift]

So, really, it still boils down to you guys know it because you know it, and you don't want to know anything else.

Well, I tried to get you to explain it.

Nah bud. I was once very much like yourself. Didn't have a firm belief in any god. Just a general concept of what God "should" be. This message was revealed to me. I didn't wake up one day and say, I want to be a christian! I made my pastor prove what he was saying. And he did, through the scripture and through is life. He has 5 children 24-34 and they are all saved and in a church in America. There are few Pastors or leaders of ANY religion that can say that. Anyway, It was a gradual tranformation.

I know it because God spoke to me as clearly as my own conscience.

 

[Grand Prix]

God talks to you? Say hi to Him for me, and tell Him I found those screwdrivers He's been looking for.

 

[Swift]

God talks to you? Say hi to Him for me, and tell Him I found those screwdrivers He's been looking for.

No problem. Will do. anything else?

 

[Grand Prix]

No problem. Will do. anything else?

Nope, but He should also be reminded that they're Craftsman brand, he may not be happy with those, but they should perform the job adequately. Thanks!

 

[a6m5]

Craftsman screwdrivers? What did I miss?

 

[Swift]

Nope, but He should also be reminded that they're Craftsman brand, he may not be happy with those, but they should perform the job adequately. Thanks!

I love how people always try to humanize God.

 

[Blake]

Nah bud. I was once very much like yourself. Didn't have a firm belief in any god. Just a general concept of what God "should" be. This message was revealed to me. I didn't wake up one day and say, I want to be a christian! I made my pastor prove what he was saying. And he did, through the scripture and through is life. He has 5 children 24-34 and they are all saved and in a church in America. There are few Pastors or leaders of ANY religion that can say that. Anyway, It was a gradual tranformation.

I know it because God spoke to me as clearly as my own conscience.

So he proved that god existed by showing you documents that are, arguably, meaningless in a scientific and historical (I'm not saying the scriptures are meaningless to history. I am, however, saying that they do not reveal a whole lot that is true to history) context?

Blake

 

[Duke]

I love how people always try to humanize God.

I'd much rather godify humans.

 

[Danoff]

I was once very much like yourself. Didn't have a firm belief in any god. Just a general concept of what God "should" be.

That's not like Duke.

But we're not BORN that way. It must be taught to us. If left unchecked, people will grow up to be selfish, lie, etc.

No we're not born that way, but it doesn't necessarily have to be taught to us by others. Human beings have the capacity to think.

 

[Pako]

I was on my way to work this morning and started to think about Adam and Eve. What did they have to gain from eating the fruit of Knowledge. They had everything that they could have ever needed or wanted. It was a paradise that God had created for them. Because of a seed of desire, self-fulfillment, and jealousy that Satan planted in the mind and heart of Eve, the end of their paradise was realized. So what good was this knowledge that they attained as a result of their disobedience? They learned of pain, labor, hunger, jealousy, rage, hate, ect... The wise person would have left the fruit alone, the fool would attain knowledge at any cost.

I then start to think of how this pertains to my own life. I can't take what my parents or the media or other sources say about drugs or alcohol abuse. I had to experience it for myself as to why these things aren't good for me. I had to learn the hard way. I now have a knowledge that almost killed me. I lived situations that I regret, that I could have avoided had I obeyed what I was told to do. My quest for knowledge almost killed me where I could have accepted what I was told as truth and avoided all those hardships. In that sense, I'm not that different from Adam and Eve. Just thought I'd share that little thought I had this morning on my way to work.

 

[Zardoz]

I was on my way to work this morning and started to think about Adam and Eve. What did they have to gain from eating the fruit of Knowledge. They had everything that they could have ever needed or wanted. It was a paradise that God had created for them. Because of a seed of desire, self-fulfillment, and jealousy that Satan planted in the mind and heart of Eve, the end of their paradise was realized. So what good was this knowledge that they attained as a result of their disobedience? They learned of pain, labor, hunger, jealousy, rage, hate, ect... The wise person would have left the fruit alone, the fool would attain knowledge at any cost.

I then start to think of how this pertains to my own life. I can't take what my parents or the media or other sources say about drugs or alcohol abuse. I had to experience it for myself as to why these things aren't good for me. I had to learn the hard way. I now have a knowledge that almost killed me. I lived situations that I regret, that I could have avoided had I obeyed what I was told to do. My quest for knowledge almost killed me where I could have accepted what I was told as truth and avoided all those hardships. In that sense, I'm not that different from Adam and Eve. Just thought I'd share that little thought I had this morning on my way to work.

And we wonder how dictators come to power, how mad gurus develop followings, and how war criminals claim they were "just following orders"...

 

[Pako]

And we wonder how dictators come to power, how mad gurus develop followings, and how war criminals claim they were "just following orders"...

Please, do explain what you mean.

 

[Danoff]

I then start to think of how this pertains to my own life. I can't take what my parents or the media or other sources say about drugs or alcohol abuse. I had to experience it for myself as to why these things aren't good for me. I had to learn the hard way. I now have a knowledge that almost killed me. I lived situations that I regret, that I could have avoided had I obeyed what I was told to do. My quest for knowledge almost killed me where I could have accepted what I was told as truth and avoided all those hardships. In that sense, I'm not that different from Adam and Eve. Just thought I'd share that little thought I had this morning on my way to work.

Knowledge is power. Only a fool accepts what he is told assuming that others know best. You were right to seek out the truth and experience it for yourself. That being said, only a fool refuses to accept anything until he has proven it to himself.

You cannot lead a productive life without standing on the shoulders of those who came before you - but you'll get nowhere if you let others run your life. You have to pick and choose what you're going to test and what you'll accept based on the information you have. This is why Adam and Eve were right to eat from the tree of knowledge in the story of the garden of eden. Given the information they had - it was the right choice and I might have done the same.

 

[Pako]

Knowledge is power. Only a fool accepts what he is told assuming that others know best. You were right to seek out the truth and experience it for yourself. That being said, only a fool refuses to accept anything until he has proven it to himself.

You cannot lead a productive life without standing on the shoulders of those who came before you - but you'll get nowhere if you let others run your life. You have to pick and choose what you're going to test and what you'll accept based on the information you have. This is why Adam and Eve were right to eat from the tree of knowledge in the story of the garden of eden. Given the information they had - it was the right choice and I might have done the same.

And look at the cost of that knowledge. I gained nothing from my experience other than being able to tell other people what NOT to experience. If they're anything like me, they will ignore my warnings and learn things the hard way, much in the same way I did, or they will die. A wise person would be able to make the right decision without having to personally experience for themselves. I don't know where you find this kind of wisdom unless you make choices based on others wisdom. This is why I try to look towards God for direction and wisdom in my life. I've learned my lesson and will continue to ask for guidance from God, and so far He's been pretty good at offering His advise. I don't need to jump off a cliff to know it's going to kill me, I don't need to know that the quest for self gratification is empty and shallow, I don't need to know that murder is wrong, I don't need to know that cheating on my wife is wrong, I don't need to know any of these things from personal experience. I can look to God for those answers without having to experience it for myself. I can make my life a whole lot easier if I let God guide my life instead of trying to guide myself, but that's just me.

 

[Danoff]

And look at the cost of that knowledge. I gained nothing from my experience other than being able to tell other people what NOT to experience.

That's not true. You learned a lot from that experience - about yourself and about what kinds of experiences you should seek.

I don't need to jump off a cliff to know it's going to kill me, ... I can look to God for those answers without having to experience it for myself.

I don't need God to tell me that jumping off a cliff is going to kill me. I can draw on my own experiences and use my brain - make an extrapolation - and realize that the outcome would be bad.

Human beings have minds - we can use them. I don't need a God to think for me.

 

[Zardoz]

...What did they have to gain from eating the fruit of Knowledge?...So what good was this knowledge that they attained as a result of their disobedience?...The wise person would have left the fruit alone, the fool would attain knowledge at any cost...I could have accepted what I was told as truth and avoided all those hardships...

Is this a put-on? Are you testing us? This is a joke, right?

"Explain yourself", you ask? Huh? What? You actually think I'm the one who has some explaining to do?

This is precisely the mentality that Jim Jones exploited when he got his sheep to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid! This is exactly what the president of the Mormon church is relying on when he says that he tolerates no dissenting opinion from members of his vastly wealthy supercult. This is how Khomeini came to power in Iran, and how the Madrassas schools manage to pump out so many fanatical graduates!

Your way of thinking is pre-medieval! How can you expect anyone to have any respect for anything you say when you make a statement like this?