Sportsmanship...

[Sander 001]

Please don't get me wrong people... I think the system works as well (overall) but there are some instances where it can be frustrating.

Cheers

For sure. I've been frustrated too but I knew by driving as clean as I possibly can, I'd sooner or later leave the clowns behind and join my people of sporting racers. And it was much sooner than I thought.

 

[Cfft555]

For sure. I've been frustrated too but I knew by driving as clean as I possibly can, I'd sooner or later leave the clowns behind and join my people of sporting racers. And it was much sooner than I thought.

Its a tough one to know. Im not C & C, I haven't been dropping back to race clean and get through, so it is slowly moving in the right direction.

 

[jagenigma]

The current system really needs work. There was a guy in the one make evo race who kept bumping me from the back and the sides, to avoid him I had to go really close to the inside of the first and final u turns in miyabi. He cost me 18 seconds in penalties because of his dirty tactics and sank me to an e and d rating.

 

[deviln3]

I think the great thing about this system is that it forces you to think during races. If you're back of the pack and know you're faster, then you need to think about setting up your pass up ahead. You have to know that the person in front of you will break early and will take a very loose racing line. Versus when racing up front, you know you can brake late, hold your inside or outside line and the other person will do their best not to hit you.

I love this part about online races.

 

[ZnA1209]

Exceeding track limits penalties are annoying. I wish the system could see if there was time gained from the excursion and would then appropriately penalize me, if I lose time because I missed a breaking point and gain no advantage, I shouldn't then also receive a 3 second time penalty.

 

[deviln3]

Exceeding track limits penalties are annoying. I wish the system could see if there was time gained from the excursion and would then appropriately penalize me, if I lose time because I missed a breaking point and gain no advantage, I shouldn't then also receive a 3 second time penalty.

As the GT Sport guy would say, "That makes you look bad."
I understand that you get no advantage, but SR also depends on keeping the car on the track.

 

[toddstar77]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Been playing both Forza6/7 online racing and GTS now and guys and girls I've got to say the online racing on GTS is way better, even with the ****** DR/SR ranking issues when you aren't necessarily the one at fault - in Forza7 it's just a demolition derby, smacking and banging, with no repercussions at all - personally take the GTS model and learn to manage your races.

Personally I learnt my lesson, don't play the GR4 race on the oval circuit lol - you smack the walls, other cars (you and them) and that DR/SR rank plummets quick smart.

 

[soundtiger95]

iRacing, which is the only sim title that has provided a very effective "race when you want" scheduled, structured online racing race series system, uses a no-fault system. I'm an iRacing veteran. It works great. And you know what? Even at higher levels of safety rating, there are still dumb collisions. This is motorsport.

You have to remember how subjective collisions are in real and online racing. It is not feasible (scalable) to have any kind of race stewardship going on in massively multiplayer online matchmaking.

Now, you can come back at me and say, "But Mike, getting rammed with late braking is easy to detect." That may be true and I think you have a point there.

Remember: The fact is that drivers who consistently drive with bad manners will drop down a no-fault system, and drivers who consistantly drive with good manners will rise towards the top. If you drive cleanly in aggregate, over the course of weeks, and you learn not to put your car in dangerous situations, your SR will rise. If I want an SR gain from Suzuka, I don't try to pass in the first sector unless the lead car messes up and goes into the runoff area outside T1.

iRacing is also an extremely niche game which caters to people who want proper and realistic racing, so you’re naturally going to have more proper race craft there. I don’t think the comparison is fair just because GTS and iRacing use no fault systems. There’s going to be much more incidents in GTS than iRacing. I understand motor sports involve dumb collisions, but you can’t use the “this is motorsports” line when talking about things like divebombing and ramming people from behind since in real motorsports, those things are penalized. Like you said, we can’t have stewards watching every race and giving out penalties, but improvements can still be made to the system to make it better.

I’m not worried about my rating dropping. I’m a clean racer who’s raced with other likeminded racers in leagues in the past so I know I’ll eventually work my way up. Ratings really mean little to me. What bothers me is when something like this costs me a chance at a good finishing position, I’m not someone who expects to win every race, but it’s annoying when you’re running a good race only to have someone slam into the side of you and run you off the track AND receive a penalty for that collision even though you never left your racing line.

I understand the point of the system and what it tries to do, but I don’t agree with it at all. There is fault on one drivers part in many collisions and incidents. Bumping is going to happen and it’s often incidental, but ramming into people because of dangerous driving isn’t common incidental contact.

That's literally what I said in the response you quoted. Glad you agree.

It’s not, and I don’t agree. Now you’re putting words in my mouth. My entire stance is that I don’t think a no fault system is the right one to use in this game, but you seem to be fine with it because it’s what PD intended (which we don’t even know for sure). Just because a no fault system is working right doesn’t mean it should be in the game.

 

[Imari]

And again - no. I am telling you they are not 'using' the system, they are exploiting it.

Big difference.

I understand you believe in moral relativism, but I don't - exploiting is cheating.

It's a competitive game. As long as what they're doing is within the rules, and it is, then it's fair game. We're not talking about your made up "it's only fair" rules. We're talking about actual enforced game rules.

You can not like it, but it's not cheating. The system is working exactly as intended. It's not like they're avoiding punishment, they're getting and serving the penalties. They've simply figured out that it's better to do that than not get any penalties at all. That's called playing well.

Welcome to competitive gaming. If there's a winning strategy within the rules, then people will use it. If you don't like it then you can use it yourself, figure out a counter strategy, or just wait until a patch changes the rules (if it ever does). But for now, these are the rules.

You can’t avoid someone plowing into you from behind at full speed. There’s literally no way to avoid that.

Uh huh. I have something to show you.



Watch into the first corner. The next lap too, if I recall correctly. He manages to dodge dive bombs twice in one race. It's harder off the start because there's so much going on, and sometimes it's impossible to see because they're blocked by other cars. But it is not impossible, it's merely difficult. Add in that a rammer is likely to be traversing a certain part of the racetrack (usually the inside) and try and avoid that, and you can give yourself a very respectable chance of making it through.

Defensive driving is totally a thing.

I don't think this is true. What a no-fault system teaches you is how to drive without really racing like you want to, long enough so you can finally be paired up with the less rambunctious racers.

That's kind of what real life racing is like, though. You don't get to go out and just race however you want with no thought for the cars around you. You have to consider that if there's an incident, even if it's not your fault, you risk damage to your car (that you'll have to pay to have repaired) and damage or death to yourself.

Hence, real life drivers generally pay each other a certain amount of respect.

The only racing system that lets you race however you want is full time ghosting. The whole point of racecraft is to allow you to cleanly deny the opponent the optimal racing line. SR systems introduce consequences for all parties in an incident, not just whoever happens to be unlucky enough to end up in the weeds. It creates a system more like real life, where everyone has incentive to avoid incidents because they don't want to end up with a suspension strut through the eye.

 

[Haitauer]

Just raced some 10 races yesterday and got the sr up - just to end up in a wreck fest and loose all of that progress in one race. And its not like i wasnt cautious. Just people torpedoing inside in a corner to pass with way too much speed to stay on that line. Cant even back down to save the rating as people behind you are not able to make a clean pass..

Its also very annoying when someones ghosting ends when you are one inch behind them and theres 100kmh speed difference.

Was very happy with the first 10 clean races, but it took just one race to ruin that..

 

[RC45]

It's a competitive game. As long as what they're doing is within the rules, and it is, then it's fair game. We're not talking about your made up "it's only fair" rules. We're talking about actual enforced game rules.

You can not like it, but it's not cheating. The system is working exactly as intended. It's not like they're avoiding punishment, they're getting and serving the penalties. They've simply figured out that it's better to do that than not get any penalties at all. That's called playing well.

Welcome to competitive gaming. If there's a winning strategy within the rules, then people will use it. If you don't like it then you can use it yourself, figure out a counter strategy, or just wait until a patch changes the rules (if it ever does). But for now, these are the rules.

There you have it folks.

One of the unrepentant dive bombers in person.

Here is a person stating that crashing into people on purpose just to gain track space and then serving the penalty is OK and within the spirit of the game because the game allows it and that is the nature of competitive gaming.

Sorry pal, where I originally come from (and that is not the USA BTW) we call people who act this way, jerks.

I suspected the majority of eSport enthusiast where jerks - the anonymity of the Interwebs encourages this type of behaviour.

I would like to see you and your cheating pals demonstrate this kind of unsportsmanlike behaviour in person down at the pub while playing a friendly game of pool or darts.

As long as you serve the penalty its all OK right?

 

[zzz_pt]

As the GT Sport guy would say, "That makes you look bad."
I understand that you get no advantage, but SR also depends on keeping the car on the track.

But Sportsmanship has nothing to do with missing a braking point and losing time because you went off track for a second. It doesn't make sense IMO. If you're gaining an advantage and overtaking some other driver because you went off track, ofc it makes sense to penalize you. Now, you're alone, by yourself, no other drivers involved, you go off for a split second and that's bad sportsmanship? I'm sorry, but if that's the case it's utterly irrealistic and senseless.

I'm not saying the way it's implemented it's bugged. I'm saying on this particular circumstance (going off track for a second, not crashing) without getting an advantage and without being involved with other cars, doesn't make sense.

Penalties for cutting corners bumping others, crashing, sure. But for this, I find it weird. And I'm not that affected by it. Only happened to me once, as I'm usually driving against clean people who don't miss their braking points and racing lines.

 

[rtsbasic]

Honestly, racing in GTS is the cleanest online experience I've ever had on a console outside of organised league racing. And that's a different kettle of fish obviously.

It definitely isn't perfect, but I'm digging the DR/SR system borrowed from iRacing and I think it encourages a different culture to most online experiences. I've had players message me after bumping a little in a race just to apologise. That may not be everyone's experience, but I would dare say it's unheard of outside of organised racing.

The last game I *really* enjoyed for public online clean racing was Live For Speed, and that was in its prime 10 years ago..

 

[RotorHed]

Actually, having raced more today in less congested races, I actually think the system is better than people claim in this thread.

I’ve noticed that
1) if I get hit from behind, I don’t get an SR degrade. I might be pushed off track or spin, but no orange SR or penalty time. So in my experience the game is taking into account the way contact occurs... see below.

2) if one does get a penalty, it doesn’t decrease at every part of the track. For example the period spent off throttle in a slow corner is not decreasing the penalty - the penalty time doesn’t reduce. The game must have speed ranges for various parts of the track.

So given (2), I think the game may be able to determine if someone is unnecessarily slow in a particular spot, or off line or whatever.

Anyway, I’m beginning to think that people who are getting SR degrades or penalties when hit from behind are actually being judged as doing something wrong by the game - Braking too early, outside the appropriate speed range for that part of the track, blocking a passing driver or whatever.

That seems to be my experience anyway.

 

[GTP_Monkey]

Actually, having raced more today in less congested races, I actually think the system is better than people claim in this thread.

I’ve noticed that
1) if I get hit from behind, I don’t get an SR degrade. I might be pushed off track or spin, but no orange SR or penalty time. So in my experience the game is taking into account the way contact occurs... see below.

2) if one does get a penalty, it doesn’t decrease at every part of the track. For example the period spent off throttle in a slow corner is not decreasing the penalty - the penalty time doesn’t reduce. The game must have speed ranges for various parts of the track.

So given (2), I think the game may be able to determine if someone is unnecessarily slow in a particular spot, or off line or whatever.

Anyway, I’m beginning to think that people who are getting SR degrades or penalties when hit from behind are actually being judged as doing something wrong by the game - Braking too early, outside the appropriate speed range for that part of the track, blocking a passing driver or whatever.

That seems to be my experience anyway.

This appears to have been added since saturday or when they changed the circuits, It wasnt like that before and I haven't been able to get into sport mode since just keep getting black screened at matchmaking.

Hope it sounds things are moving in the right direction.

 

[Famine]

Here is a person stating that crashing into people on purpose just to gain track space and then serving the penalty is OK and within the spirit of the game because the game allows it and that is the nature of competitive gaming.

Looks to me like he's not saying it's okay, but saying it's within the rules of the game. And it is - whether you like it or not, the rules for SR allow this behaviour while still rewarding drivers with SR gains. Some drivers are exploiting this normal function, but they're doing so within the rules. They've figured out what works and are using it to their advantage.

I also don't see any suggestion that he's doing it himself or associating with those who do, so your accusations that he's:

One of the unrepentant dive bombers in person.

you and your cheating pals

are unnecessary, over-the-top, inappropriate for this site and not based on any facts.

I get that you don't like it that people are exploiting this normal function, but rein it in.

 

[GTP_Monkey]

Looks to me like he's not saying it's okay, but saying it's within the rules of the game. And it is - whether you like it or not, the rules for SR allow this behaviour while still rewarding drivers with SR gains. Some drivers are exploiting this normal function, but they're doing so within the rules. They've figured out what works and are using it to their advantage.

I also don't see any suggestion that he's doing it himself or associating with those who do, so your accusations that he's:


are unnecessary, over-the-top, inappropriate for this site and not based on any facts.

I get that you don't like it that people are exploiting this normal function, but rein it in.

Yes unfortunately people will use all exploits within the said rules to their advantage, Lets just hope its a minority and soon settles down.

PS is anyone still getting black screened at matchmaking, has it been resolved ?

 

[TCG]

I want to give it time to do it’s thing but it’s kinda sucking the fun out of the game.

Currently I’m DR B and SR B and I’m really questioning the “Fun” of this game. As it stands, I usually qualify within the top 3 every race which should be fine however at least 3 out of 4 races is ruined by some idiot diving into the first few corners of the first lap and ramming me or someone around me which sets off a chain reaction that leads to -SR and the rest of the remaining laps are spent trying to recover my SR because I don’t want to drop down into SR C or worse where it’s just a free-for-all derby. The game is currently less about racing and more about the fear of dropping into the lower ratings where it’s an aweful free-for-all derby.

I really thought once i improved and got into the B’s I’d be done with this crap but nope, the system hasn’t weeded out to many of the idiots as it should have by level B and above. Are we seeing similar in A And S races too?

I agree the system needs time but I’m not terribly impressed or hopful since I’m seeing the same antics by idiots in level B as I am in E&D&C races.

 

[GTP_Monkey]

I want to give it time to do it’s thing but it’s kinda sucking the fun out of the game.

Currently I’m DR B and SR B and I’m really questioning the “Fun” of this game. As it stands, I usually qualify within the top 3 every race which should be fine however at least 3 out of 4 races is ruined by some idiot diving into the first few corners of the first lap and ramming me or someone around me which sets off a chain reaction that leads to -SR and the rest of the remaining laps are spent trying to recover my SR because I don’t want to drop down into SR C or worse where it’s just a free-for-all derby. The game is currently less about racing and more about the fear of dropping into the lower ratings where it’s an aweful free-for-all derby.

I really thought once i improved and got into the B’s I’d be done with this crap but nope, the system hasn’t weeded out to many of the idiots as it should have by level B and above. Are we seeing similar in A And S races too?

I agree the system needs time but I’m not terribly impressed or hopful since I’m seeing the same antics by idiots in level B as I am in E&D&C races.

Im in B sr and its was upto sunday crash bandicoot. I only done one race since the changes so cannot really say if its better ( kept getting black screened ) but may try when next online to see if things have changed hopefully.

 

[TCG]

Im in B sr and its was upto sunday crash bandicoot. I only done one race since the changes so cannot really say if its better ( kept getting black screened ) but may try when next online to see if things have changed hopefully.

I’ll jump on tonight and see, but over the weekend it was bloody painful. But hearing there have been changes gives me hope.

That rare race where there are no rammers is pure enjoyment and racing as it should be it’s just sad that currently in GTS that’s the exception and not the rule

 

[TRGTspecialist]

I really thought once i improved and got into the B’s I’d be done with this crap but nope, the system hasn’t weeded out to many of the idiots as it should have by level B and above.

The issue might not be that players aren't being 'weeded out', but that all new players by default start at B; so even if dirty players are sliding down from that, if you're B rank then you could get matched with people who have just started playing, who's real rank is essentially 'unknown'.

I don't know why PD did this instead of just having everyone start at the lowest safety rating, and allow the clean players to work their way up. If I remember right that's what they did for the closed beta.

 

[GTP_Monkey]

The issue might not be that players aren't being 'weeded out', but that all new players by default start at B; so even if dirty players are sliding down from that, if you're B rank then you could get matched with people who have just started playing, who's real rank is essentially 'unknown'.

I don't know why PD did this instead of just having everyone start at the lowest safety rating, and allow the clean players to work their way up. If I remember right that's what they did for the closed beta.

Would have been better to start lower and work your way like levelling up.

 

[cutmeamango]

I think there's one thing the game is still in heavy fault: Not enforcing and teaching people how to keep track of rear-view mirrors. The radar is just no bueno especially since it shares space with other important displays.
They should have made a driving park-road simulator and taught basic defensive, road driving.

 

[PzR Slim]

I think there's one thing the game is still in heavy fault: Not enforcing and teaching people how to keep track of rear-view mirrors. The radar is just no bueno especially since it shares space with other important displays.
They should have made a driving park-road simulator and taught basic defensive, road driving.

To be honest the whole 'teaching people how to race properly' thing is a complete joke. The game offers nothing that is even close to doing that. I'm really not sure how the FIA are going offer people a digital racing licence. Looks even more like it's just a PR opportunity for both parties.

 

[TCG]

I think there's one thing the game is still in heavy fault: Not enforcing and teaching people how to keep track of rear-view mirrors. The radar is just no bueno especially since it shares space with other important displays.
They should have made a driving park-road simulator and taught basic defensive, road driving.

Explain to me how to tell a racer in my rear vision mirror is about to decide not to break and instead ram into me and what “defensive driving technique” is recommended.

A “racing” game that will penalise me if I’m hit from behind when I’m on the racing line, hit my braking point perfectly, kept my line to not hit cars to my left right and in front and about to make the apex is flawed, surely.

 

[cjr3559]

There you have it folks.

One of the unrepentant dive bombers in person.

Here is a person stating that crashing into people on purpose just to gain track space and then serving the penalty is OK and within the spirit of the game because the game allows it and that is the nature of competitive gaming.

Sorry pal, where I originally come from (and that is not the USA BTW) we call people who act this way, jerks.

I suspected the majority of eSport enthusiast where jerks - the anonymity of the Interwebs encourages this type of behaviour.

I would like to see you and your cheating pals demonstrate this kind of unsportsmanlike behaviour in person down at the pub while playing a friendly game of pool or darts.

As long as you serve the penalty its all OK right?

Agreed. Feels like we’re playing by ice hockey rules.

 

[cutmeamango]

To be honest the whole 'teaching people how to race properly' thing is a complete joke. The game offers nothing that is even close to doing that.

I agree, I can imagine ways to be more thorough in explaining the rules, how they are imputed and how to represent certain necessary aspects in awareness to the player but I feel the "GAME design" influenced their decisions way too much. Those videos made me cry.

Explain to me how to tell a racer in my rear vision mirror is about to decide not to break and instead ram into me and what “defensive driving technique” is recommended.

A “racing” game that will penalise me if I’m hit from behind when I’m on the racing line, hit my braking point perfectly, kept my line to not hit cars to my left right and in front and about to make the apex is flawed, surely.

Since it's always everyone else's fault, it would be to their benefit learning how to drive with other people on the road.

 

[ferreira]

It's a competitive game. As long as what they're doing is within the rules, and it is, then it's fair game. We're not talking about your made up "it's only fair" rules. We're talking about actual enforced game rules.

You can not like it, but it's not cheating. The system is working exactly as intended. It's not like they're avoiding punishment, they're getting and serving the penalties. They've simply figured out that it's better to do that than not get any penalties at all. That's called playing well.

Welcome to competitive gaming. If there's a winning strategy within the rules, then people will use it. If you don't like it then you can use it yourself, figure out a counter strategy, or just wait until a patch changes the rules (if it ever does). But for now, these are the rules.

Except it's not within the rules. That's why it's called a penalty - because they broke the rules. When someone breaks a rule in order to gain an advantage, that is literally the definition of cheating. As for "playing well" I'd say that's morally ambiguous at best - maybe the word you're looking for is 'smart'.

As for the people that are happy and willing to exploit the system, perhaps there needs to be an even harsher punishment introduced. For example, if you are penalised an 'X' amount of times in a race, you get disqualified. The number of times you can be penalised before disqualification can vary depending on DR, with very little margin for the top tier and a larger margin for the lowest tier.

 

[JulesDennis]

To be honest the whole 'teaching people how to race properly' thing is a complete joke. The game offers nothing that is even close to doing that. I'm really not sure how the FIA are going offer people a digital racing licence. Looks even more like it's just a PR opportunity for both parties.

Many people were pointing that for a long time.I agree btw.

 

[Imari]

Except it's not within the rules. That's why it's called a penalty - because they broke the rules. When someone breaks a rule in order to gain an advantage, that is literally the definition of cheating. As for "playing well" I'd say that's morally ambiguous at best - maybe the word you're looking for is 'smart'.

Games don't have morals. And they're playing within the rules, the penalty systems are part of the rules. The rules say that if you take this action, you receive this penalty. There's nothing saying that you can't take the action leading to the penalty, it's simply implied that usually the penalties are harsh enough to make people not take the action. That's not the case in this situation, people have figured out that the penalty is light enough that you come out ahead afterwards.

...perhaps there needs to be an even harsher punishment introduced. For example, if you are penalised an 'X' amount of times in a race, you get disqualified. The number of times you can be penalised before disqualification can vary depending on DR, with very little margin for the top tier and a larger margin for the lowest tier.

This is more like it. The problem is with the system. The system creates a situation in which players are encouraged to take penalties for their own advantage. Do you watch basketball? At the end of a tight game, often players will intentionally foul the other team. This is accepted strategy. It's tolerated because it only works in edge cases, and it makes close games exciting (and also take longer with lots of breaks for advertisements).

I totally support changing the system. But I've been playing competitive games for a long time and I've seen a lot of broken BS. If you're serious about competing, sometimes this stuff happens. It'll probably get changed sooner or later, but until then you kind of have to accept that this is the game you're playing.

There's a term that's used in the FGC to describe people that construct arbitrary rules to support their own style of play. There's a good article here by David Sirlin, an ex-professional Street Fighter player and now-professional competitive game designer (followed by a whole series of good articles about competitive play):

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

It's from the fighting game community, but the competitive aspects are just as applicable to racing. Basically, the rules and physics are what they are. Sometimes they'll seem like BS, but ultimately the point of a competitive game is to win. If that means using the physics in ways that seem unrealistic or using penalty systems unintuitively, then so be it.

Note that he also discusses the line between using the rules creatively and outright breaking the rules. You may find it interesting.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating

Seriously, fighting games have seen all sorts of broken bollocks. Basically, you use it to your best advantage until the rules get changed. That's the same here. I do understand that a game where everyone is competing to punt each other and then exhaust their penalties in the most efficient manner isn't exactly what anyone came for nor is it very deep or engaging gameplay. But that seems to be kind of what Polyphony has made.

I'm not sorry I haven't bought the game yet. It sounds frustrating, and it's got to suck after dropping money on a long awaited game to find the main game mode like this. It's unfortunate that they don't have a single player campaign that people could sink themselves into while we weather this and wait for Sportsmanship 2.0.

P.S. If anyone is serious about competitive gaming, I highly recommend reading all of Sirlin's Play to Win articles. You may disagree with some of them, but they'll make you think about how you approach competitive gaming and what you're really trying to achieve. He's a smart guy, and you'll come out the other side a stronger competitor.