Superchargers VS. Turbochargers

  • Thread starter Mopar 68
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And another gimp come and gone making stupid claims that he can't back up. What's the score now, something like GTP -500 - Idiot new members -NIL.

Well I personally think this threads topic has potential, it might be worth the mods deleting all the crap so people can disscuss the pros and cons of superchargers and turbos, I know it's a discussion I'd be interested in.
 
That's alot of effort taken to troll, I mean all it takes to ban someone is maximum 3 clicks.

Oh what the hell?

OH! I thought I double posted.
 
We've had to softdelete his sweary message, I'm afraid. I've noted in the Banned User Log the reason for his banning, but we can't allow his message to remain in open forums. Which is a pity really, as it's a classic...
 
Famine
We've had to softdelete his sweary message, I'm afraid. I've noted in the Banned User Log the reason for his banning, but we can't allow his message to remain in open forums. Which is a pity really, as it's a classic...

Never, NEVER, take on Famine (and co.)
 
Mopar 68 - 20th July 2006 - Severe allergic response to rationality and reality, manifesting as sweary temper tantrum.
:lol::lol:

Oh well... Reality hit him, saw he had no place to go after we questioned him hard and did that for escape. This'll be one to remember for some time that's for sure!
 
Ahh man he's banned, he was my student I was just educating him on some new Turbo Technologies. Which he thought was Hybrid Tech, a country Ausie term I guess.:dopey: lol

Oh well I will try and start back to the main topic. This is a brief description of my understanding of a TC & a SC. This should help those who are not in depth familiar of it's Pro's and Con's. Since a crank driven SC is what people are normally talking about when they use the term supercharger, I will no longer say "crank driven" to make the distinction between it and a turbo. Now using a supercharger makes a ton of sense simply because it only has a direct effect in pressurizing the engine on the side we want it to, the induction side. Since pressures will always be higher here than in any other part of the system except of course during the engine's power stroke, but that's always sealed off from the rest of the system so we can forget about that complexity. It's very easy to make this combination a powerful one. NA engines often use large amounts of valve overlap to get the whole system to work properly at higher RPM, which has obvious drawbacks in that it's possible for the intake system and exhaust systems to interact in a negative way since they operate at similar pressures. It's sometimes just as easy to get air flowing backwards through the system as it is to go forwards in an NA setup, which is one reason camshaft choice is so important to where in the RPM band best power will be produced. And here is where the beauty of supercharging is, neither valve overlap amounts nor perfect exhaust system designs are completely essential to keep everything flowing in the right direction. No matter how long the exhaust is exposed to the intake system through valve overlap, air should NEVER pass backwards through the system unless the supercharger stops working.

The cons of supercharging is that some of the power we finally get from combusting the air/fuel mixture must go back into powering the supercharger. So here we have designed this whole system that works so well, yet we have to power it with some of our hard earned torque. This is not a good thing, but then again nothing so simple is ever going to come for free. Do superchargers work? Of course they do, which is why many racing engine uses the technology unless the rules prohibit it. The net result is more total power from the system, but a portion of this power must be sapped from our output to make it all work.


Now Turbocharging have all of the same advantages, except for one major benefit. That benefit is that turbocharging runs off what is largely wasted energy, so that damn drawback of needing to power the system with some of our hard earned torque is removed. In this way, a turbocharger addresses the one main drawback to using a supercharger, but as you will see in a second the supercharger addresses the one main drawback of turbocharging.


Cons: Hopefully you now understand why it makes so much sense to forgo designing engines for NA use and just supercharge the sucker instead, at least when we are talking about how to best make power. A turbo is an ingenious little design that harnesses the wasted kinetic energy we dump out through the exhaust system to actually force more air into the engine. This is good for the same reasons that supercharging is good, but it has one major drawback: it of course increases the pressure within a portion of the exhaust system. While turbocharging a motor increases the amount of air that can be flowed into it, it has a negative effect on how easily we can flow it back out again. This weakens our positive pressure difference between these two fundamental sides of the engine, and causes both cam timing & exhaust system design to again become extremely important to making good power. This is most certainly not a good thing, but can a turbo overcome this drawback with the other inherent good it possesses? It certainly seems so, because in most current forms of racing where the rules don’t probihit the use of turbos or slap restrictions on their use, the turbo reigns supreme in terms of engine power output.

Now I want to also provide insight on some new technologies that provide gasoline cars with the benefits of having a turbocharger without the dreaded boost lag (instant Tq). BorgWarner's new variable turbo geometry (VTG),(Now found in the New 997 produces zero lag when equipped with the Tiptronic S transmission.) which uses guide vanes located in front of the turbine wheel that modulates inflow angle and speed.
Another design is electronic "Steady-State Torque-Speed Curve" Electronically assisted turbocharger systems, electrically driven compressors, significantly improve the boosting effect. This allows the torque to be increased while at the same time permitting further engine downsizing.
This is something the New GTR is rumored to be in for the new upcoming BNC36 GTR. Zero lag turbos are now being used and invested for new sports car companies as a new benchmark in performance engineering.

Thus another reason why I can't wait till the new GT5 will incorporate this into the characteristics or even have us purchase such a system in the tuner shop.

The purpose here is to educate people on exactly why we would want to supercharge or turbocharge an engine in the first place. Also I wanted people to see, from a basic and theoretical perspective, how each system is different in its function and it's relative pros & cons.
 
Famine
We've had to softdelete his sweary message, I'm afraid. I've noted in the Banned User Log the reason for his banning, but we can't allow his message to remain in open forums. Which is a pity really, as it's a classic...
I will send you a newborn Lamb to do what you please with if you will PM me that message :D
 
for everyday use i would want to use a turbo as you arent always using the turbo and so this saves on fuel and when you whant to use the turbo charger all you have to do is either change down a gear or simply put your foot down and i would also use a turbo for street racing because although the super chargers wine is nice you cant beat the noise that a dumpvalve makes on a turbo but for racing on a track it would have to be the supercharger as u have constent pressure and so u arent waiting for the charger to kick in especially if the track is bendy as it is very unlikely that on a bendy track you will be able to use a turbo to its full potentail

and by the way you already can buy no lag turbos on gt4 in one of the tuning shops such as HKS there are 5 turbo stages and if you read about the last one it offers slightly less boost but it has no lag
 
Sonzilla
Ahh man he's banned, he was my student I was just educating him on some new Turbo Technologies. Which he thought was Hybrid Tech, a country Ausie term I guess.:dopey: lol

Nice post, but trying to educate someone like mopar 68 like this over the internet is just a waste of time, he was clearly too biased to V8's and superchargers and just lied about everything until he was cornered and got nasty like a cornered Chihuahua. (which was funny :lol:)

I didn't even bother trying to 'educate' him on forced induction as he was blowing enough hot air with his car claims.


ExigeExcel
I will send you a newborn Lamb to do what you please with if you will PM me that message :D


I can PM you the two funny sweary posts if Famine hasn't already.
 
speed_demon
for everyday use i would want to use a turbo as you arent always using the turbo and so this saves on fuel and when you whant to use the turbo charger all you have to do is either change down a gear or simply put your foot down and i would also use a turbo for street racing because although the super chargers wine is nice you cant beat the noise that a dumpvalve makes on a turbo but for racing on a track it would have to be the supercharger as u have constent pressure and so u arent waiting for the charger to kick in especially if the track is bendy as it is very unlikely that on a bendy track you will be able to use a turbo to its full potentail

True but a supercharger is the same way. While the supercharger is always working it isn't always making boost. That only happens when you punch it. So you can get good fuel economy by conservatively driving with a supercharger also. I have found that I get about 28mpg with conservative driving and around 23mpg when I am driving more spiritedly.

speed_demon
and by the way you already can buy no lag turbos on gt4 in one of the tuning shops such as HKS there are 5 turbo stages and if you read about the last one it offers slightly less boost but it has no lag


No turbo lag turbos in a video game do not equate to the same in real life. I hope you know this. All turbos have lag. Smaller turbos have very little but there still is lag.

I don't think one is better then the other personally. Technology has evened the playing field and both work well in almost any application. (diesel engines aside)

I wondered how long it would take someone to mention the bypass valve noise on a turbo as an advantage. :rolleyes:
 
IMADreamer
I wondered how long it would take someone to mention the bypass valve noise on a turbo as an advantage. :rolleyes:

With a side-mount blower on a 4 or 6 cylinder, you can also get the same bypass valve noise, as they can are set up with a similar intake track as a turbo.
 
I remember reading somewehre that superchargers get a problem at high revs. They run out of boost for some reason. I also remember they explained why, but I forgot. Anyone care to explain?

Thanks!
the Interceptor
 
It's because mechanical superchargers run off of the engine directly, and as RPM increases the power lost by the supercharger from the engine increases because of the transitive property of energy. The superchager is pushing the same amount of air, but the engine is losing power because of the power lost by the supercharger belt and pulleys.

 
Great post Sonzilla, just... WOW :embarrassed:

There is also that anti-lag turbo system that rally cars use. Backfiring system is it? AFAIK it's some sort of injectors that add a little fuel to the exhaust to speed up the exhaust gases. Can someone educate me more?
 
daggoth
Great post Sonzilla, just... WOW :embarrassed:

There is also that anti-lag turbo system that rally cars use. Backfiring system is it? AFAIK it's some sort of injectors that add a little fuel to the exhaust to speed up the exhaust gases. Can someone educate me more?

The engines ignition timing is greatly retarded causing much of the combustion to occur as is exiting the exhaust valve so most of the expansion happens in the exhaust manifold and turbocharger causing it to keep positive boost even when off throttle. This is obviously not a good system for a road production car.


As for Superchargers loosing magor efficiency at high RPM, I have only heard of this problem with genuine roots type superchargers (Not the more efficient twin screw type) somewhere above 10,000rpm (supercharger speed not crank),

These roots type superchargers are not pressure superchargers (they don't hold boost but rather just push air towards the intake, much the reason they are referred to as "blowers") like twin screw or centrifugal type, they rather push air at a fairly rate where much of the air rebounds back from the air in the intake manifold then gets pushed again causing inefficiency's and excess heat (all happens within the supercharger housing and intake manifold). The inefficiency at high rpm is probably due in part to looser tolerances, open (internally allowing air to come back) design of the supercharger. This designs great advantage is its great performance right from idle.
 
the Interceptor
I remember reading somewehre that superchargers get a problem at high revs. They run out of boost for some reason. I also remember they explained why, but I forgot. Anyone care to explain?

Thanks!
the Interceptor

That's true of a roots type SC but twin screws and centrifigal because they actually build pressure instead of just throwing air into the engine.

Edit: I see that if I had bothered reading the rest of the page that Viper explained that much better then I did.
 
VIPERGTSR01
The engines ignition timing is greatly retarded causing much of the combustion to occur as is exiting the exhaust valve so most of the expansion happens in the exhaust manifold and turbocharger causing it to keep positive boost even when off throttle. This is obviously not a good system for a road production car.
👍 :cheers:
 
nucesone
well it doesn't even matter people NA IS BEST.....ha

got you all on that one.

I live at 5,300 feet above sea level. Naturally-aspirated vehicles lose 10% of their power for every thousand feet up. Turbocharged vehicles do not. So, I got you on that one.
 
M5Power
I live at 5,300 feet above sea level. Naturally-aspirated vehicles lose 10% of their power for every thousand feet up. Turbocharged vehicles do not. So, I got you on that one.
I don't want to give you too much credit, but how much power do boosted engines lose? Are Turbo and Supercharged engine losses different from altitude? (from each other)
 
LeadSlead#2
but how much power do boosted engines lose? Are Turbo and Supercharged engine losses different from altitude? (from each other)

Supposedly turbocharged engines don't begin to lose power until you're significantly high in elevation - 10,000 feet or north. I've been just about everywhere in Colorado and there are very few roads that high even here. Also supposedly, supercharged and naturally-aspirated engines lose the same amount (I was wrong about 10% - it's actually 3% per thousand feet - I knew 10% seemed high).

Granted this is all from information I've gathered on the Internet - I've done no tests to back it up, nor can I even explain why that's so (though it's common knowledge). I'll quote a post I made on Giles' site a few months ago:

me
consider this: it's generally agreed that naturally-aspirated engines lose three percent of their power per thousand feet above sea level they go. ... my city, denver, is exactly a mile above sea level. so if the driver of that 200 horsepower car is three percent down per thousand feet, he's already looking at a deficit of 15.84% - or more than thirty horsepower. this is why i run close with g35s in denver (260 horsepower down to 220, so i have a prayer), where i'd normally get aced. now consider this up on a mountain hill. let's take poncha pass, which is a few hours from denver on us 285 near lovely salida, colorado in chaffee county ("the xh"). poncha pass is 9000 feet above sea level, so your 200 horsepower car is losing 27% of its power - or 54 horsepower - giving it just 146 horsepower. meanwhile, my turbocharged volvo, which produced 222 horsepower in south carolina, and 222 horsepower in denver, still produces 222 horsepower. it wouldn't even be a fair fight.
 
M5Power
I've done no tests to back it up, nor can I even explain why that's so (though it's common knowledge).
Well, it's pretty obvious if you think about it. The higher you go, the less oxygen is in the air. Engines need oxygen to burn the fuel and make power. If there's less, it doesn't make as much. Still, this doesn't explain why turbocharged engines need to go so much higher for this to take effect. Maybe it's sucking in air and oxygen fast enough not to take effect?
 
G.T
Well, it's pretty obvious if you think about it. The higher you go, the less oxygen is in the air. Engines need oxygen to burn the fuel and make power. If there's less, it doesn't make as much. Still, this doesn't explain why turbocharged engines need to go so much higher for this to take effect. Maybe it's sucking in air and oxygen fast enough not to take effect?
I don't know - I don't know enough about how they work. Wikipedia says that the first turbochargers were used in airplanes because they saw a significant increase in available power and they're still used in airplanes for that reason to this day.
 
It's because the amount of air a turbo-engine sucks in is proportional to the air that goes out. Probably (I'm pulling this out of my butt), as you go higher, and outside pressure gets lower, the velocity of the high pressure exhaust and the vacuum created that pulls it out gets higher. Remember, turbo engines love big, open exhausts, and low outside pressure likely gives the same effect as a 1/2" pipe upgrade. In effect, your turbo becomes more effective, offsetting some of the power loss.

A supercharger boosts based on engine speed and not exhaust pressure, and doesn't change its speed in relation to outside pressure. So it still provides the same boost at altitude as at sea level, but at high altitude, it's pushing less air.
 
From what I've read, a turbo sucks in more air than it pushes into the engine at ground level and wastes the rest or something like that. The air only begins to get thin to an extent where it's sucking in les air that it would otherwise blow into the engine at a certain height.
 

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