Tactile Info & Buyers Guide / Comparisons / Opinions - Work In Progress

  • Thread starter Mr Latte
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Yeah RReed43,

Simvibe must be limited in ways by windows itself.
I'm assuming a technical issue hence only 4 channels per card?

Ideally in a perfect world Consoles and PC's would have a recognised/adopted World Standard
Like say Dolby or DTS decoding but in tactile.

Produced by developers during the game design itself with game physics encoded into required data, then this data distributed to a compatible multichannel decoder/soundcard for connection to tactile units.
 
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RReed43
On SimVibe I also experience a slight stereo effect but what is pushing me to double the amount of tactile is the feel of the simulation.
Click to expand...

SimVibe doc or support does not explain how to setup Chassis in Stereo mode properly, except vague "Simvibe will honor Windows settings"
After trials and errors I've found a solution that actually works and produces proper channel separation when using two transducers.
http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/8738-is-stereo-simvibe-worth-it/?p=159767
 
In regard to how I handle my SimVibe outputs.
1) I set the audio card controller to Quad.
2) I use the green and black head phone style audio jacks on the audio card. One is for front speakers and the other for rear speakers. I connect to them using a splitter which separates the signal in to a left and right channel standard audio connector.
3) I take the right channels from front and back and direct to the left and right inputs on the SA70. The SA70 is designed to combine stereo audio into mono. I drive the right Aura with this SA70. I do the same thing for the left channel. My front and back right side is combined into one signal.

When my new set of amplifiers and shakers are installed I will use the four leads to drive the four individual amplifiers and have an independent channel for both front and back, left and right.
 
RReed43
In regard to how I handle my SimVibe outputs.
1) I set the audio card controller to Quad.
2) I use the green and black head phone style audio jacks on the audio card. One is for front speakers and the other for rear speakers. I connect to them using a splitter which separates the signal in to a left and right channel standard audio connector.
3) I take the right channels from front and back and direct to the left and right inputs on the SA70. The SA70 is designed to combine stereo audio into mono. I drive the right Aura with this SA70. I do the same thing for the left channel. My front and back right side is combined into one signal.

When my new set of amplifiers and shakers are installed I will use the four leads to drive the four individual amplifiers and have an independent channel for both front and back, left and right.
Click to expand...
With the method in the link, you can just use single card output, no splitters, less cables, and have perfect channel separation.
 
RReed43
An Aura Bass shaker can handle 50 watts. It will get hot if heavily driven. A Dayton SA70 will drive 50 watts, it gets hot, it's not hard to cause a thermal shut down.
Click to expand...

Some people mount PC fans to cool their bass shakers - you can do this cheaply by using the power supply from an unwanted PC. Use one fan per shaker to direct air either across or down onto the unit. I haven't needed to do this myself because I removed the fabric from the underneath of the sofa so there is plenty of air available for cooling. You can also fit a fan or fans into your amp box - I built a box holding three subwoofer plate amps, but haven't fitted a fan because I haven't had a thermal shutdown with those amps.
 
Amp Stress / Heat Issues
That is a factor worthy of more discussion. I believe more of an issue in circumstances of an amplifier continually close to it's maximum output. Also more of a factor with lower quality amplification. Even the best amps, stressed to their max for long periods could be a reliability factor. Having say 30% more power available ensures an amp isn't breaking a sweat or a bad thing.

Interesting to learn if some people have been having heat/thermal related issues and if so what make/model of amplifier is being used? I have set a Skytec SPL on fire in the past :)

Your Rig / Subs & Tactile?
Curious how many of you have Sub-woofers with your rigs.
If so, do you combine them using "Game Audio" with Simvibe or tried experimenting using a Sub-woofer via suitable crossover and with selected Effects/Extensions?

Thoughts/Experiences?
 
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On heat issue. I am currently using SMSL SA-98E (2x160W/4Ohm) feeding two Buttckickers mini LFE, it's maxed out or at 90% all the time and gets just slightly warm to touch, no active cooling, mind you.
On the other hand two of my solid state headamps and DACs get pretty hot regardless of the volume/load as they should :). So I think it's mostly the architecture than the actual load.
 
Handy for a set application but because frequency can not be adjusted not so good for your requirements.

Simvibe is not so much the issue with its low frequency outputs.
The setup guide refers to how some effects it is possible to scale the data into a tone (frequency).
Using their example of engine revs selecting a (start Hz) and rev limit (end Hz).
(Basically High Pass / Low Pass Filtering)

I do not know how accurate it is regards this or if anyone has tested the settings to actual Hz output being monitored externally. That's not to say it isn't spot on neither...


However Music/TV/Console Games all these would be much better with a controllable crossover as the frequencies they produce will vary greatly. Basically you may want more than 70Hz but less than 100Hz with music or other material.

If buying well for me I'd choose 70Hz for the ADX
 
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Andrew_WOT
Interesting alternative to hardware based equalizer
http://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/
Click to expand...

Yes indeed perhaps a potential option Andrew with loads of control for some but is it compatible with using multichannel Simvibe configurations and easy to use?

Their have been "audio specialist forums" such as AVS discussing software "Para EQs" for quite sometime for various uses/applications.

Most people will need to buy amps any-ways and Behringers iNuke DSP are easy to control. Besides all their other features and price-point. These factors not to mention their performance should make them a very tempting amplifier option to consider over what many forum/communities have thus far been embracing for Simvibe.
 
Yes, iNuke DSP has parametric equalizer and while checks many boxes still might not be the holly grail, ideal amp for Simbive:
- 2 channels only, you need two for full chassis mode, and amp is not small
- noisy fan
- 300watt while nice to have is a total overkill for Simbive driven Buttkicker mini LFE that needs just 150w.

Are there other alternative options?
- 5 channel Emotiva UPA500 140w/4ohm was amp of choice before it was discontinued, new version is in work accordingly to Emotiva support
- ART SLA-4 4 channel 140w/4ohm is current the most closest UPA500 alternative

These are options for full 4 channel chassis setup amps.

And there are also compact 2 channel options which are easier to accommodate on your desk/rig when you need more than one.
SMSL SA98-E 160w/4ohm is one that seems to be quite well regarded.

I think it's always nice to have some options/alternatives depending on what is more important for the user. Parametric EQ for instance might not.
 
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I understand and agree with the value of equalizers for console based tactile set ups. It helps tremendously to be able to amplify the tactile related information in the audio feed while blocking the audio information.

The situation changes with SimVibe. The information coming out of the sound card is all tactile and the amplitude of that information can be controlled from SimCommander.

This simplifies the down stream side of the situation and simply requires an amplifier/amplifiers and shaker/shakers which are scaled to each other and sufficient in size to meet the desires of the end user. Location, number and size become the key variables.
 
Andrew, thanks for your input and points noted. Some some good ones which I will address later.
By all means people should indeed use this thread to highlight options/recommendations and I will edit the thread at the start to have them detailed.
 
RReed43
I understand and agree with the value of equalizers for console based tactile set ups. It helps tremendously to be able to amplify the tactile related information in the audio feed while blocking the audio information.

The situation changes with SimVibe. The information coming out of the sound card is all tactile and the amplitude of that information can be controlled from SimCommander.

This simplifies the down stream side of the situation and simply requires an amplifier/amplifiers and shaker/shakers which are scaled to each other and sufficient in size to meet the desires of the end user. Location, number and size become the key variables.
Click to expand...


I'm curious and apologies if incorrect here. Tend to not fully agree but lets try clarify some things or factors. You seem to be eliminating certain benefits of additional hardware and not just improvements they can make over just the software but also to potentially allow Simvibe to be extended beyond what it typically supports/offers.

Simvibe Uniquness
So just for now, regardless how Simvibe generates effects from telemetry data, regardless in it giving control to individual effects, regardless in the many options it may or may not confusingly provide in altering the data, regardless how it allows effects (not all) to be scaled into a Hi Pass / Low Pass Crossover Frequency Output (Lowest Tone & Highest Tone).

So if I am accurate basically this "Tactile Information" you refer to coming out of the sound-card is potentially a number of "individual effects" like "engine/suspension/surface texture" and potentially more all with varying "Tactile Frequencies" generated by their individual settings all happening in real-time?

Bottom line the selected effects a user chooses to use in say "Simvibe Chassis" can be numerous and are "Per Channel Output" to L / R / LR / RR yes?

Soundcard Output
What has happened to all the individual effects?
On output from a sound-card "The Tactile Information" is this now not "ALL COMBINED" into an audio signal?
Have the effects not lost their independence? Would we class them now any different to a .1 Subwofer output on an AV Receiver? as per single mono/channels?

So correct me please if I am wrong but could we determine that Simvibe is unique in the "USER CONTROL" of "HOW" and "WHAT CAN BE OUTPUT" & "NOT HOW IT OUTPUTS" fundamentally at the end of the line is combined audio signals for amplification?


Standard Amp Does The Job / BUT
The tactile unit according to you just needs plain and simple suitable amplification and indeed to operate you are correct. This is what the vast majority of people have been doing and will continue to do!

What however is being disregarded in benefits iNuke DSP brings is that you are not taking into account some of the below:

  • What effects/frequencies are potentially overloading the tactile unit from the oncoming combined signal?
  • How does the USERS tactile unit perform at different set frequencies?
  • What frequencies does it struggle with, at what gain or wattage is the tactile unit sensitive?
  • Is their a range of frequencies it just doesn't cope so well with?
  • Does Simvibe enable wattage control or do most typical amplifiers to the USERS tactile rating?
  • Does Simvibe give tuning to .1 of a HZ, can it apply +/- dB to individual frequencies?
  • Can Simvibe give control of all effects output on a channel an operating HZ range easily?
  • Can Simvibe enable multiple outputs per channel for Chassis Effects but distribute these over multiple tactile each with different independent settings?

Basically as terrific as the software is which I am not faulting. Still their are limitations to it's control of how each individuals tactile/cockpit can be fine tuned.

iNuke is not without its own issues/limations neither but if people want to ignore it or explore it they can. Question is are folk interested in controlling their tactile so that it reacts/performs better? Willing to consider some advantages that additional hardware like iNuke DSP but not only it may bring to enhance the users end result in performance.

Or additionally those that want to peruse or create a custom tactile configuration not directly supported within the software itself.
I personally am keen on splitting individual tactile into roles for maximum performance possible. All is doable and their are ways around some limitations....
 
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I would never argue that adding more control can't benefit the end result. For those that want to shape the experience beyond what is available from SimCommander do so and please let us know what the results are.

To me SimCommander already gives an incredible degree of control to modify the signal to meet the desires of the user. So much so that I let SimCommander create a profile for a particular car. All you need to do is drive a few laps with the car and then let SimCommander analyze the laps and prepare a profile based on what vibrations and impacts are being produced.

The only control I mess with is the output volume control on the amplifiers to provide an overall level of tactile effects that are pleasing to me and don't over drive the shakers or the amps.

I just got the new ADX shakers and amplifiers added to my rig and I'm beginning to play with it. At this point in time I'm looking to balance the feedback between the front and back by setting the gain on the front amps versus the back amps.
 
RReed43 I am glad to hear you are enjoying the tactile immersion because it can require quite a sum of money to invest into what is often a bit of an unknown expectation. Understandably many people do not want added confusion or more tweaking to do, they just want to enjoy the sensations of tactile easily and quickly.

Simvibe Control & Tune The Effects * iNuke DSP Control & Tune Your Tactile
I want to tread carefully because the object is not to "find fault in Simvibe" nor is it the case to just promote the iNuke DSP range. The object though of the thread is looking at options that can make a users Simvibe or Game Audio tactile experience a better one. More hardware will be covered shortly, their is no agenda in promoting a particular brand/product. iNuke DSP currently just offers so much at a price point that is very competitive to standard amplifiers and much cheaper to Crown XTi series(1)(2) that offers similar features but at 2x and 3x the price.

CHOICE - To Do Or Do Not
So having an amplifier with "more control" that benefits low frequency devices like tactile/sub-woofers at least gives the user the option. The user can opt to disable any such controls but it typically is not a hard process because the user can adjust and feel the differences being applied in real time.

For example if a user wants to make adjustments to their Simvibe settings being output. Making some changes within iNuke DSP save them to a Profile. They can then load this or different profiles and then easily compare the Simvibe output with and without changes applied on the amplifier. Peoples experiences or success may vary but their is no harm in trying.
 
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Andrew_WOT
Yes, iNuke DSP has parametric equalizer and while checks many boxes still might not be the holly grail, ideal amp for Simbive:
- 2 channels only, you need two for full chassis mode, and amp is not small
- noisy fan
- 300watt while nice to have is a total overkill for Simbive driven Buttkicker mini LFE that needs just 150w.
Click to expand...


Hi Andrew, just getting back to valid points you raise.
I think it is good and please do by all means question and tackle like you have points made...


Most amps are two channels, fan noise can be an issue with Power Amps not just Behringer.
The DSP 1000 & 3000 are actually very shallow amplifier units.
Is 2 boxes an issue for many people? Not sure though it betters needing 4x Buttkicker amplifiers.
Most amplifiers in home/consumer markets are now 6ohm or 8ohm moving away from 4ohm.
The subwoofer, PA or commercial marketplace is where most 4ohm but with high sustainable wattage are found.
Having 300 watt to drive a device between 100-150 watt running @ 50% capacity is better than an amplifier running constantly at 80-90% capacity to do so, particularly with the strains of low frequency tactile.
Is extra wattage for a device a con if the device is in the same price-point as many others with less?

Andrew_WOT
Are there other alternative options?
- 5 channel Emotiva UPA500 140w/4ohm was amp of choice before it was discontinued, new version is in work accordingly to Emotiva support
- ART SLA-4 4 channel 140w/4ohm is current the most closest UPA500 alternative

These are options for full 4 channel chassis setup amps.

And there are also compact 2 channel options which are easier to accommodate on your desk/rig when you need more than one.
SMSL SA98-E 160w/4ohm is one that seems to be quite well regarded.

I think it's always nice to have some options/alternatives depending on what is more important for the user. Parametric EQ for instance might not.
Click to expand...

Indeed lots more options are to be added but also users opinions/experiences with them are very much welcomed.
It is obvious some people do not see a need for Parametric EQ, or confused in the additional options/control it can bring.


Multichannel Amps
Their generally isn't a huge market for multichannel amplifiers. Often multiple 2 channel units can be purchased cheaper and with additional performance gains. These factors often outweigh those of a single boxed unit.

A disadvantage with Multichannel amplifiers could be if it goes faulty under warranty. If so then your losing not just 1 or 2 channels are you. A person could weigh this up against the benefits of a one box solution. Each to their own...


Also looking at your points/comments of wasted amplification and one box solution. Well lets compare to the one you listed:

ART SLA-4 Power Amplifier 140 Watts @ $349

Lovely compact design aside not sure if people would consider the ART over say the NU4-6000 over 2x NU1000. Price differences and specs Vs one box solution?

Personally I would still spend the extra money more on 2x NU1000 DSP models or SAVE $50 going with 2x NU1000 without the DSP features. Although to some the slim space saving compactness is an important requirement.

Behringer iNUKE NU4-6000 4 Channel (NON DSP) @ 680 watts RMS $349 / £272 (April 2015)

Behringer iNUKE NU1000 2 Channel (NON DSP) @ 300 watts RMS $149 / £134 (April 2015) TWIN SET $298


More Than Wattage
Compact amps generally I believe are not designed or intended for the continued strain of a sub-woofer/tactile. Basically a low frequency device or the strain it has on an amplifier. This should be taken into account when purchasing any budget amplifiers. Their is more to the equation to consider than matching wattage.

Wattage is also not a factor to quality of amplification. Perhaps some users are having good enough results with these budget amps and the 50 watt tactile type units but I would question any amplifiers quality with having poor THD 10% ratings found in the ones you linked.


Bottom line features of iNuke DSP regardless if they are desired or not the price-points performance and value are fantastic. Hence my recommendation but so far I do not see better all-round options...

I personally recommend spending approx $50 more for ALL the DSP not just Parametrec EQ benefits and features. Particularly with people wanting to enjoy not just "Simvibe" which seems to be taking centre stage even though this thread takes into account console gaming and even music tactile enjoyment as well.

Many people I believe will be interested in Console & PC gaming and yes including Simvibe so this is the view I base my recommendation on.
 
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Bottom line, rephrasing Henry Ford.

"You can have any amp as long as it's Behringer iNuke NU1000 DSP". (Mr. Latte) :lol:

Moving on, nothing to see here.
 
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Andrew_WOT
Bottom line, rephrasing Henry Ford.

"You can have any amp as long as it's Behringer iNuke NU1000 DSP". (Mr. Latte) :lol:

Moving on, nothing to see here.
Click to expand...

Thats being silly, as you can also have the 3000 & 6000 models Andrew. :lol:

As stated the thread will be updated, including the Art 4 Channel that you mentioned and thanks for highlighting it.

Actually the bottom line HARD FACTS...
Well the next competing amplifer with anything like iNuke DSP feature set is....

Crown XTi 1002 Power Amplifier 2 x 500W at 4 Ohms $499

Now Discontinued & Replaced with:

Crown XTi 2002 Power Amplifier 2 x 500W at 4 Ohms $699

Bias is nothing to do with the recommendation.
It is based on user experience/performance benefits & price...

 
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I'd just bought a inexpensive aftermarket sports seat for my rig (still waiting for my ADX Maximus), bottom seat doesn't have much metal to mount on so I think I might have to get some thing custom made so that I can mount the ADX transducer. Any tips on the best material to use (metal or wood), surface size to feel the most impact, should the transducer face upwards or downwards towards the ground and best way to mount at the bottom of the seat. (Still Googling for measurements for seat bracket mounting points...)

Appreciate to have such basic tips even on simple things like mounting transducers to get the best results.
 
I just started a thread describing adding two ADX Maximus's to my rig. In that I suggest you consider mounting a one shaker setup under the pedals not under the seat as I think you would get more bang for your buck.
 
For mounting location you may want to look at this post

As far as material for the mounting board goes. If you can do MDF, it's the best for controlling resonance.
If going fancy with metal plate you either need super thick one but that kills vibration as mounting surface needs some play for transducer to transmit vibration properly (some basics here) or dampened aluminum plate.
 
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RReed43
I just started a thread describing adding two ADX Maximus's to my rig. In that I suggest you consider mounting a one shaker setup under the pedals not under the seat as I think you would get more bang for your buck.
Click to expand...

Wher's our thread? (How's the ADX?)
 
Hi! Is it possible to use gpu's hdmi audio for av-receiver and mobo's soundcard for tactiles with other receiver/amplifier?
I can't seem to get them both working at the same time..
Now my system is set up so that gpu's hdmi transfers the sound and picture to my onkyo receiver.
 
Thanks! I'll try this when I get home from work.
Will there be a device (mobo sound card?) on the "playback" section of the settings that I can send the signal to the tactile amplifier simultaniously with the gpu hdmi after this?
 
Strainer79
Thanks! I'll try this when I get home from work.
Will there be a device (mobo sound card?) on the "playback" section of the settings that I can send the signal to the tactile amplifier simultaniously with the gpu hdmi after this?
Click to expand...
That article is to enable simultaneous audio playback.
 

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