Griffith500 is doing a much better at describing the faults than I am!
I've been doing some experimenting during races. I've found that the back end stepping out seems to be the games default reaction to anything it deems is a mistake of the bike being pushed past its limits. Slow down for a hairpin and crawl around the bend slower than normal, instead of the bike washing out from under you, the back end violently steps out. Go over the crest of a hill and get the bike light, back end steps out super violently. Had other riders nudge into the side of me, back end steps out....you get the idea.
Yet, I have cut across grass and the bike is steady as a rock. I have even managed to get just the rear tyre onto the dirt taking a corner, and the bike stays stable, whereas that is one place where the back end should lose grip. It doesn't make any sense at all, and is mind boggling that during playtesting nobody questioned this. Or maybe they did and it was ignored.
Basically it is a case of slowing down much more than needed with any crests, or downhill sections, and if the game decides to spit you off anyway, play catch up during the rest of the lap.
I was just taking photos of the game box etc so i can re sell it and saw it said ps4 pro enhanced on the back, i wonder what is enhanced for the pro, does anyone know.
SIDECAR = {
id = 1,
entitlement_label = "TT0000000SIDECAR", -- Used on PS4
package_name = "DLC1", -- Used on Xbox One
appid = 814060, -- Used on steam
unlock_content =
{
"DATA:/PACLOG/CUSTOMPAC/SIDECARS/ATYPE/ATYPE.PAC.xml",
"DATA:/PACLOG/CUSTOMPAC/SIDECARS/BTYPE/BTYPE.PAC.xml",
"DATA:/PACLOG/CUSTOMPAC/SIDECARS/CTYPE/CTYPE.PAC.xml",
"DATA:/PACLOG/CUSTOMPAC/SIDECARS/ATYPE/ATYPE_RIDER.PAC.xml",
"DATA:/PACLOG/CUSTOMPAC/SIDECARS/BTYPE/BTYPE_RIDER.PAC.xml",
"DATA:/PACLOG/CUSTOMPAC/SIDECARS/CTYPE/CTYPE_RIDER.PAC.xml",
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Well, the DLC comes in a month or so, it'll be interesting to see if they tweak the handling at all. I'm okay with them making it more realistic, but I won't be so happy if all of a sudden it feels as easy to control the bike as playing Level 1 of Outrun Europa on the C64.
Welcome to GTP... generally the discussion here should be less cancerous than Twitter! Anyway..
As a biker do you think that part of the problem could be that when riding a bike, your whole body is part of the equation, for controlling the bike, and for gleaning feedback from the bike --- yet in a computer game, you only get visual cues as to what is going on... and therefore, if the simulation doesn't build in some compensation factor to make it easy, then it makes it seem even harder?
I used to ride bikes, many years ago. Yeah, when you steer a car, you just turn a wheel, but on a bike the weight and position of your body is part of the steering system. It isn't possible to recreate this in a game.
That's why (in bike games) I always use the third person camera - this gives you strong visual clues about the lean-angle, and rider position etc, which you don't really get in first person. This, to a certain extent, compensates for the intuitive sense of balance you get when on a real bike. Instead of feeling the weight and lean angle, you see it.
I think TT is a more intense, palm-sweating game than Ride 2. But Ride 2's physics are better. One irritating feature of TT, which I have mentioned before, is that the rider's movements are jerky. A small input leads to dramatic lurching which doesn't seem to correspond to what the bike does.
The thing about rider position, as important as it is, is that I think it's overstated as an active input. Except maybe at very slow speeds (gymkhana) and off-road where the (movement of the) rider's weight has a larger effect due to reduced inertia or gyroscopic forces, or where less available grip means steering is itself less effective.
Keith Code once demonstrated this by fitting a second set of handlebars to a bike, fixed to the frame instead of the fork, and noted that (a change in) rider position was not effective in getting the bike to do anything especially useful in itself.
This robot's only method of control is steering the handlebars:
Yamaha's Motobot stays in a fixed position on the bike:
So particularly in terms of steady-state cornering, rider position can happily be "animated" as part of the physics engine or control scheme (as long as it is taken into account within the physics) and you will get a convincing result - Tourist Trophy in particular animated the head (camera) position to superbly immersive effect, giving lots of useful information of both lean and rider position relative to the bike. Note that both the Ride games and Tourist Trophy have an adjustable "riding style", that changes how the virtual rider positions itself on the bike, and at least in Tourist Trophy it affects the handling too. This is interesting because you can design the riding style that yields the dynamics you want, and potentially learn from it.
I think the real benefit of the third person camera is alleviating the issue of the camera tilt and your inner ear not agreeing, but that's something that can easily be accommodated to in time. Still even then, it's possible you'll be faster with the external camera, but I find it far less immersive. Riding a real bike would be a much easier task if a lot of the physicality were removed from the experience, too.
The change in CoG and hence required lean angle for a given cornering rate due to body position is obvious and second nature / subconscious in experienced / trained riders, making it less of a distinct input per se - just the same as for "countersteering" into, around and out of a corner. This is why games abstract both of those processes out of the control input scheme: because it's one fluid process in reality, it should be in a sim, too. Without the relevant physical feedback channels, the input that is physically mediated in real life is meaningless.
Visual feedback is extremely effective, and it almost makes up for the lack of a butt-o-meter in properly designed (car) driving sims once you learn how to read it, so why not bike sims too? I find it interesting that I can watch on-board footage of cars and read handling issues from the dynamics on display, all because I have had experience in sims where such things are important to grok (and is the primary difficulty people have with sims when inexperienced).
Most road riders don't come close to really making much impact in terms of body position, and I have consciously tested this on track, alternating laps between mild body movement and hanging off as far as my core strength would let me. The bike required slightly less lean for a given speed (such as it was), obviously, but crucially I didn't feel any more or less in control either way. If anything, coordinating my movements with the tasks I was asking of the bike sometimes got in the way of a smooth ride - this clearly is all part of the appeal; it's involving. I'd wager my experience probably applies to the majority of riders, the kind who might want to enjoy a casual bike game, in which the feedback cannot deliver what is being asked of it, so the input scheme has to be tweaked accordingly.
What "leaning" and body position do have a large effect on, for the average rider, is confidence. That's because "hanging off" requires that you decouple yourself from the bike, and so you feel it move around beneath you and become accustomed to this movement to the point that you can push harder on track and let the bike sort itself out, or not unhelpfully tense up when it comes to pucker moments on the road. But that confidence carries over to when you can't be bothered to move around as well. There is also an element of suspending your own weight through transitions so the bike doesn't have to, especially off-road.
People comment on GP Bikes' impressive and above-average ability to convey the "feeling" of being on a bike, without giving any "feel" as feedback in the first place. This is all down to the authenticity of its entirely visual responses originating in a highly detailed physics engine (despite its basic input scheme compared to e.g. Tourist Trophy), nothing more. It actually also has a "direct steer" mode, where you have to consciously countersteer etc. It's somewhat less intuitive and immersive, interestingly - certainly at first. Those that can master it (perhaps with the help of bespoke hardware) may get a better sense of immersion than game-pad players, but it's clear that authentic physics (quite aside from "difficulty") does most of the work.
Very well written piece Griffith500
I ride all year, commuting, holidays away and for pure fun. 99% of my body movement on the bike is subconscious, occasionally I will come across a situation where I need to keep the bike more upright than planned, diesal etc. I don't stick my knee out while going down a country road at 90mph tho, I keep my body inline with the bike and take my weight through the footpegs.
I think that developers should have recorded TT racers movements, seems to me they looked at track based games rather than actual road racing footage and this led to some of the handling issues with this game.
I still haven't completed a hot lap without crashing, still playing tho, PB coming down.
If the devs have plans to patch in improvements in “gameplay” what would you all like to see?
In its current state I am really enjoying every lap and trip around the mountain/other tracks. Unfortunately I have yet to find any online matches, but hopefully as word of mouth travels regarding this gem, the online community grows on the Xbox One.
Impressive lap! There were so many places there where I expected the game to chuck you off for no reason whatsoever. I'm so used to seeing certain types of curves and crests that seem almost impossible to negotiate without being turfed off, that it seemed almost unreal that you stayed on!!!
Picked this up on Steam today... a no-crash lap is still a foolish dream. My best lap I think had 14.
Ran a few laps on the first 600 Honda the game offered me, getting used to everything(jumped straight to simulation because I'm me). More or less got comfortable with how it worked after 5 laps. Then I tried a lap on a Kawasaki(Dunton's maybe?) and I couldn't even keep it upright, was all over the place all lap. Just calmly rolling around a mid-speed corner was an epic adventure. Back to Anstey's Honda and it was nice and manageable again. I see all the teams have slightly different stats so I don't know yet if they all might have different setups that vary that much or if it's just the difference in bikes.
I realize simulation-wise it's a little iffy with less than perfect suspension modelling and the slidey rear wheel, but still a lot of fun nevertheless. At least on the Honda.
Impressive lap! There were so many places there where I expected the game to chuck you off for no reason whatsoever. I'm so used to seeing certain types of curves and crests that seem almost impossible to negotiate without being turfed off, that it seemed almost unreal that you stayed on!!!
Thanks for watching, it's still a noob lap (driving line, auto gears, combined braking on) but about as fast as I can be bothered too attempt with these settings.
I'll be turning it all off and I did do that when I first got the game but decided to learn the track first with easier settings before moving up the difficulty scale.
I found that I really needed a 'user-definable' button option to set the front/ rear brakes and weight transfer buttons to where I wanted them as these are critical, as in TT superbikes (ps2).
I've found that there were certain sections that I had to adjust my line and gas/ brake style to get through without crashing consistently.
Also each bike and each class of bike handles so differently, that you have to re-learn the way you can ride each model/ class around the circuit and this is multiplied by which assists you use as well.
1. Add steering sensitivity and other controller settings adjustments to the console version of this game. They're available in the PC version released this week.
2. Tweak the physics a bit. The rear loses traction too suddenly at times and slides out when cresting hills and through dips, pitching the rider sideways diagonally off the bike. There is no warning and no catching. I also think the front end of certain bikes is a bit too "loose" when correcting while exiting a corner. What should be a simple correction instead pitches you sideways in the other direction. A bit too much of a "weighted pendulum" effect.
Minor quibbles, though. Still loving this game!
I'm curious: What assists are everyone using? I'm running all assists low except for wheelie control. Full race line, manual gearing.
1. Add steering sensitivity and other controller settings adjustments to the console version of this game. They're available in the PC version released this week.
2. Tweak the physics a bit. The rear loses traction too suddenly at times and slides out when cresting hills and through dips, pitching the rider sideways diagonally off the bike. There is no warning and no catching. I also think the front end of certain bikes is a bit too "loose" when correcting while exiting a corner. What should be a simple correction instead pitches you sideways in the other direction. A bit too much of a "weighted pendulum" effect.
Minor quibbles, though. Still loving this game!
I'm curious: What assists are everyone using? I'm running all assists low except for wheelie control. Full race line, manual gearing.
Not sure it really counts as "gameplay" but it would be nice if ghost laps and lap records actually saved between sessions. Being able to manually save/load a specific ghost would be nice too. I'd prefer it if it saved your best time for each bike, but even if it was just your best supersport/superbike laps it would be better than nothing. It shows fastest lap and session fastest but every time I start a new session they are blanked and I have to set a new time and ghost. I haven't found any place to manually save it either.
When you set a good time on a 60km lap you might want to be able to chase it in a future session without having to duplicate it first, more so if it's a bike you struggle with. Oh well, maybe by the year 2050 we won't need to keep using Notepad to track progress in our racing games.
No racing line, everything on low except anti wheelie on medium & auto gears, my fingers aren't fast enough, ha.
I would like to see the handling tweaked a bit, nothing too drastic as it's not too far off, pit times seem too long, especially on the 600's as no need for tyre change, just chain lube & fuel.
Occasionally getting audio problems, almost sounds like the bike is mis-firing.
Would also like the Supertwin class included, they could be a good way to learn the course and be more forgiving of mistakes, and as Morgoth 666 said, the ability to save previous best lap time ghosts.
PS. Sound deteriorated then went off completely during a 4 lap TT race. Anyone else experience this?
There's also a bunch of car parameters - now maybe these are left overs from their rally games, but there's no mention of any other rally cars or rally tracks.
It makes sense for them to make the most out of their killer feature!
Those names in the "shop" list are a bit obscure. I can't reconcile the number from each recognisable manufacturer listed with the number in the game, either, so it's hard to say what it means.
It might hint at further classes and / or licensing issues...
There's also a bunch of car parameters - now maybe these are left overs from their rally games, but there's no mention of any other rally cars or rally tracks.
Keep in mind the same team are developing the next V-Rally title, so this could be shared asset tags from that.
Either way a combo of rally cars on the IoM TT course is something I have wanted for a very long time, and I don't mind which title it could end up in.
I've got to be honest... 12 months ago I'd have been all over being able to drive the TT circuit in a car... now I'm more familiar with it... I'm a lot less bothered. It's iconic, and yes, the onboards from Mark Higgins car are impressive, but it's not that interesting of circuit with the stability of a car, and looking at it, I'm sure we all know better driving roads in real life.
I've got to be honest... 12 months ago I'd have been all over being able to drive the TT circuit in a car... now I'm more familiar with it... I'm a lot less bothered. It's iconic, and yes, the onboards from Mark Higgins car are impressive, but it's not that interesting of circuit with the stability of a car, and looking at it, I'm sure we all know better driving roads in real life.
The course will feel a lot narrower in a car (and sidecar outfit), that means there are many more corners of note. It will feel like a different circuit at times.
There are not many "driving roads" in games, full stop. Even those open world games and arcade-likes fall short of the nuances of real roads. It would be nice to have more real roads in more games. However, the flat reality of roads in real life is that well over 90% of it is uninteresting anyway, even our favourites have boring bits. Even the Nürburgring (Nordschleife) has boring bits.
It'll be interesting to see where photogrammetry and GPS (and whatever else might emerge) could take things; imagine stitching together all your favourite corners! Until then, this 37.73-mile-long course is pretty nifty 👍
For those of you on Twitter, the devs and the games outreach manager can be tweeted @TTIoMtheGame for constructive feedback for a future update to known issues.
It'll be interesting to see where photogrammetry and GPS (and whatever else might emerge) could take things; imagine stitching together all your favourite corners! Until then, this 37.73-mile-long course is pretty nifty 👍
My dream racing game is one where it can grab Google Earth (Street view) data and create tracks from any points you input. I want to race around the streets where I live.
I've got to be honest... 12 months ago I'd have been all over being able to drive the TT circuit in a car... now I'm more familiar with it... I'm a lot less bothered. It's iconic, and yes, the onboards from Mark Higgins car are impressive, but it's not that interesting of circuit with the stability of a car, and looking at it, I'm sure we all know better driving roads in real life.
No, but I'm not really seeing anything there that stands out from being any different to the thousands and thousands of other semi-rural A-roads that I have driven on in the UK (or Europe). I just think this is one of those things were as a piece of tarmac, if you take the label off it, it becomes nothing special. Places like Silverstone and - dare I say it - Le Mans, kind of also fall into this category. But that's just like, my opinion, man...
As Griffith points out, the biggest challenge would be getting used to it's width, in a car at speed - so I'm not saying it would be easy, just that as a challenge it seems to make more sense to me flat out on a bike.
I keep my body inline with the bike and take my weight through the footpegs.
