Teachers with guns ?

[Zenith]

+1


I'm surprised this is coming from someone who lives in the "Bay Area" of California.

I'm not, he's probably getting really tired of these left wingnuts trying to micro manage every aspect of his life. Now they are trying to tell him he doesn't need to protect himself or his children because they will do that for him as well.

On the head.

Snip

Nick humored you. I see you're still yet to humor me and actually post some of this evidence that is apparently everywhere.

 

[FoolKiller]

Hopefully you'll understand me better after this response.

If this was your way of clarifying that the risk you yourself pose to those around you everyday you carry a gun is too large of a risk for school, sure.

 

[Nicksfix]

There is a vast amount of evidence surrounding what I am speaking of, people losing it, developing depression or violence, and acting upon it. You act as if there is no evidence of this? but there is a ton of evidence for violent crimes that are the result of social situations and mental instability.

Once again, where is this vast amount of evidence that you claim will ignite a teacher to go off the deep end and shoot a kid ? There is none. Until or if this should ever happen, all you are pointing out is speculation.

but there is a ton of evidence for violent crimes that are the result of social situations and mental instability.

Such as Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Columbine, your point would be what ? You basically answered this with your own words ..... "social situations and mental instability". These problems are not due to a teacher / student dis-agreement, hence causing the student to go on a shooting spree. These problems should have been caught and addressed at the homefront before it even reaches the school level. Agree ?

And there is a history of violence in schools. Did the teacher cause the fight? No, but it is a place where violence does happen, and my guess is that there have been a number of un-journalized events where teachers stepped in and went to far in the process.

Your right, fights do happen in schools. What happens during such an instance, yeah, the teacher has to jump in and break it up. At what point does the teacher say "to hell with this, I might go to far in breaking something up". "I'll just sit back and watch and see what transpires out of this, so I don't get in trouble". Nooooo, a teacher has to intervene and get it resolved, even if it means calling for help from another member of the staff. Sure, the student may get pissed at the teacher for intervening, but does that mean the in the upcoming future he is going to go into the school and shoot the teacher who broke up the fight ? Unless the student is a basket case, the answer would be no.

Your talking about fights in school though. This is irrelevant to the fact that teachers are carrying guns into school is to protect themselves, your kids, my kids from the next Adam Lanza.

 

[Bye Ya]

These problems are not due to a teacher / student dis-agreement, hence causing the student to go on a shooting spree.

You still don't understand what I'm trying to say. That wasn't it.

These problems should have been caught and addressed at the homefront before it even reaches the school level. Agree ?

Maybe. Should've didn't solve the multitude of shootings that have happened though.

Sure, the student may get pissed at the teacher for intervening, but does that mean the in the upcoming future he is going to go into the school and shoot the teacher who broke up the fight ? Unless the student is a basket case, the answer would be no.

You misunderstood me again.

Your talking about fights in school though. This is irrelevant to the fact that teachers are carrying guns into school is to protect themselves, your kids, my kids from the next Adam Lanza.

It's completely relevant to the point I'm making, but you can't seem to visualize what I'm trying to get across, so you don't see it.

I can't seem to communicate through the text-exclusive environment we're having this discussion in. It's getting tiring, to be honest. I don't really care if you get it or not. I'm free to state my opinion, and that's what I did. Then I entertained accusations for the past several pages, and yet here we are, most of what I post is misinterpreted. It's not really worth the time at this point.

 

[Zenith]

We go off of what you post.

So far what you've said amounts to "Teachers will murder children in a fit of rage." and as proof you've provided "I won't find you evidence because it's everywhere." Which is the equivalent of the classic schoolyard "I know the answer, I just don't want to tell you!"

We also can tell a lot about your argument from what you don't post. Don't think we haven't noticed how you cherry pick your responses.

 

[Bye Ya]

Zenith, you really are a try hard.


Just answer two simple questions:

1. Are teachers human, and likewise susceptible to the fallibility of the human condition, ie. developing depression, hatred, grudges, rage, mental instability?

2. Have humans with these symptoms ever, in the course of history, arrived at a point where they murdered innocent people as a result, whether they be CCP owners, policemen, soldiers, family members, average Joe's, etc?

3. (optional) Whether you are a policeman, soldier, teacher, gang banger, proud father, ceo, or arborist, are you not still a human?

 

[Zenith]

Zenith, you really are a try hard.

I would say that you don't try hard enough, since you are still yet to post a shred of relevant evidence to support your point conjecture.

Just answer two simple questions:

1. Are teachers human, and likewise susceptible to the fallibility of the human condition, ie. developing depression, hatred, grudges, rage, mental instability?

2. Have humans with these symptoms ever, in the course of history, arrived at a point where they murdered innocent people as a result, whether they be CCP owners, policemen, soldiers, family members, average Joe's, etc?

3. (optional) Whether you are a policeman, soldier, teacher, gang banger, proud father, ceo, or arborist, are you not still a human?

Have I ever indicated that I believe otherwise? Why don't you go off of what I post, instead of whatever strawman (yet again) that you wish to argue against. Go read my reply to MarcoM. Then formulate a response. This time make it a response to the post that I actually posted to GTP.

 

[Bye Ya]

Have I ever indicated that I believe otherwise?

Every time you asked for evidence.

 

[arora]

Bye Ya, you are clearly arguing against all gun ownership, whether you realize it or not.

 

[Bye Ya]

Bye Ya, you are clearly arguing against all gun ownership, whether you realize it or not.

No, I'm very aware of my own thoughts and my position on the matter. Look at the causes for school shootings. High school in particular can be a very traumatic experience for certain groups of students. Teachers observing that social scenario can also be affected personally.

The social identity that a person feels as the result of going through high school can, and often does, play a major role in how the rest of their life plays out, from their career choices and onward. It's not the same thing as going to the zoo, as someone previously suggested. I'm against guns being included in the day to day classroom activities contained within that context.

 

[arora]

No, I'm very aware of my own thoughts and my position on the matter.

Well I played your 3 question monte and could only conclude that once 2 questions where answered correctly, the game was over and we lost our right to arms.

Look at the causes for school shootings. High school in particular can be a very traumatic experience for certain groups of students. Teachers observing that social scenario can also be affected personally.

The social identity that a person feels as the result of going through high school can, and often does, play a major role in how the rest of their life plays out, from their career choices and onward. It's not the same thing as going to the zoo, as someone previously suggested. I'm against guns being included in the day to day classroom activities contained within that context.

Finally someone agrees with me just how badly our public schrule system is broken 👍

I have to ask you again however, so how do you propose to protect the students?

 

[Zenith]

Every time you asked for evidence.

I hope, for the sake of your apparent intelligence in the eyes of all who can read that post, that you are joking.

No, I'm very aware of my own thoughts and my position on the matter. Look at the causes for school shootings. High school in particular can be a very traumatic experience for certain groups of students. Teachers observing that social scenario can also be affected personally.

Your thoughts and what you post must be completely different things then...

This would be relevant to the discussion if teachers had a habit of snapping in a classroom and becoming murderous to a student. Do they?

The social identity that a person feels as the result of going through high school can, and often does, play a major role in how the rest of their life plays out, from their career choices and onward. It's not the same thing as going to the zoo, as someone previously suggested. I'm against guns being included in the day to day classroom activities contained within that context.

Concealed Carry. Also soldiers and police officers are often times made into role models for kids. Both carry guns. Maybe instead of pretending that guns are cursed we can teach them to understand what a tool is.

 

[Bye Ya]

I have to ask you again however, so how do you propose to protect the students?

It's a tough call. There's a thin line of paranoia you'd have to balance to cover all the bases, which at some point would likely infringe upon peoples' rights. As it stands I am not required to have an answer to be able to hold an opinion on armed teachers in the classroom.

I hope, for the sake of your apparent intelligence in the eyes of all who can read that post, that you are joking.

Straw man what?

This would be relevant to the discussion if teachers had a habit of snapping in a classroom and becoming murderous to a student. Do they?

That is your opinion, and it's an opinion that is not even addressing my position, which is more broadly concerned with human weakness, combined with the currently sensitive social strata that have led to so many school shootings.

Concealed Carry. Also soldiers and police officers are often times made into role models for kids. Both carry guns. Maybe instead of pretending that guns are cursed we can teach them to understand what a tool is.

Not sure who this is directed at, because like I said I am a gun owner and I certainly wouldn't subscribe to such superstition. Students themselves have also been presented as role models numerous times, and at the same time students have also murdered a number of their peers in recent years.

Please don't ask me to provide evidence of this common knowledge.

 

[hogger129]

Almost. Specifically, my position is that a teacher would lose it, because of the social situation and current atmosphere surrounding school shootings, and because they are human. I specifically used the wording "human condition". There is a vast amount of evidence surrounding what I am speaking of, people losing it, developing depression or violence, and acting upon it. You act as if there is no evidence of this? That is my position. I don't care if you disagree with it, but there is a ton of evidence for violent crimes that are the result of social situations and mental instability. I shouldn't have to look it up for you.

If millions of law-abiding Americans who carry firearms every day can handle this so-called "social situation and current atmosphere," what makes you think that law-abiding teachers cannot?

Once again, you have provided no evidence to support your claim.

Let me ask you something. When you write a research paper to support your position, do you write "I should not have to look it up for you" in the Works Cited page? Just wondering.

If we're not going to have armed teachers, then we should at least put armed liaison police officers in the schools. But wait, police officers can and have "lost it" too. So I would like to ask, how do YOU propose we protect our schools without restricting the rights of law-abiding people?

Not sure who this is directed at, because like I said I am a gun owner and I certainly wouldn't subscribe to such superstition. Students themselves have also been presented as role models numerous times, and at the same time students have also murdered a number of their peers in recent years.

Please don't ask me to provide evidence of this common knowledge.

Ok, you are a gun owner. But what does that prove? I've met plenty of gun owners who think the Second Amendment is for hunting, and therefore are against so-called "assault" weapons and handguns, etc. Whether that's you, I don't know.

Once again, here we are with the unsubstantiated "common knowledge" defense.

 

[Nicksfix]

It doesn't require a higher rate of violence by teachers. Remember, I said "eventually", not "often". And there is a history of violence in schools. I personally witnessed more than one student get put into the hospital because of fights in the school, and things can get physical when teachers step in to break it up. Did the teacher cause the fight? No, but it is a place where violence does happen, and my guess is that there have been a number of un-journalized events where teachers stepped in and went to far in the process.

Hopefully you'll understand me better after this response.

I addressed this scenario for you and you said that I did not understand you. I completely understood your post. I even went so far as to highlight your "key words" ... fight. You cannot argue back against what you posted, unless you are having a change of heart. Are you ?

Such as Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Columbine, your point would be what ? You basically answered this with your own words ..... "social situations and mental instability". These problems are not due to a teacher / student dis-agreement, hence causing the student to go on a shooting spree. These problems should have been caught and addressed at the homefront before it even reaches the school level. Agree ?

Your right, fights do happen in schools. What happens during such an instance, yeah, the teacher has to jump in and break it up. At what point does the teacher say "to hell with this, I might go to far in breaking something up". "I'll just sit back and watch and see what transpires out of this, so I don't get in trouble". Nooooo, a teacher has to intervene and get it resolved, even if it means calling for help from another member of the staff. Sure, the student may get pissed at the teacher for intervening, but does that mean the in the upcoming future he is going to go into the school and shoot the teacher who broke up the fight ? Unless the student is a basket case, the answer would be no.

Your talking about fights in school though. This is irrelevant to the fact that teachers are carrying guns into school is to protect themselves, your kids, my kids from the next Adam Lanza.

You still don't understand what I'm trying to say. That wasn't it.
You misunderstood me again.

Only going off of what you posted, and you posted about 2 kids fighting and a teacher intervening.

It's completely relevant to the point I'm making, but you can't seem to visualize what I'm trying to get across, so you don't see it.

No it's not. You stated the words fight amongst two students. There is a world of difference between 2 kids fighting in school and a psychopath shooting up a school full of human beings.

We go off of what you post.

+1 👍

Concealed Carry. Also soldiers and police officers are often times made into role models for kids. Both carry guns. Maybe instead of pretending that guns are cursed we can teach them to understand what a tool is.

Indeeed

If we're not going to have armed teachers, then we should at least put armed liaison police officers in the schools. But wait, police officers can and have "lost it" too. So I would like to ask, how do YOU propose we protect our schools without restricting the rights of law-abiding people?

I'd like to see a valid response myself.

==========

Bye Ya ... got a question for you.

On the last page, you called me out to "humor you". I did so. Now I think it's time to reverse the tide. I want to call you out on something. I want you to humor me. I responded to you as a common courtesy, I feel you should repay the favor ... agreed ?

Here it is, and please respond, as a common courtesy. Thanks 👍

At the time of the Sandy Hook massacre, how many teachers may have had this particular thought running through their mind.

"I wish someone here had a gun"

This thought running through their mind as they were looking down the barrel of that 9. This thought running through their mind as they sat there like sitting ducks, cowherd behind desks, tables, watching the students get shot. This thought running through their mind, knowing that on the next trigger pull, they were going to be the next casualty.

You still think guns in school to protect their life, your kids life, my kids life is a bad thing ?

 

[arora]

Please don't ask me to provide evidence of this common knowledge.

I'm going to ask you to provide evidence of this custom muzzle loader with custom amo.

Pics and specs please.

 

[Tornado]

Straw man what?

Stop throwing that term around until you learn what it actually means and stop doing it yourself.

It does not mean "someone pointing out hypocrisy in a position" as you've used it to mean twice. It does mean "to intentionally misrepresent someone's argument and argue against the misrepresentation without touching on the actual argument," which you yourself have done several times now in the past 3 pages alone.

 

[FoolKiller]

That is your opinion, and it's an opinion that is not even addressing my position, which is more broadly concerned with human weakness, combined with the currently sensitive social strata that have led to so many school shootings.

How is it an opinion that if human weaknesses are intensified when combined with the social strata of schools that there should be evidence of it occurring? Did you just not indicate to me less than 48 hours ago that you were talking about the everyday risk of anyone having a gun being too great in your opinion. Now you are back on schools are special sensitive places kick. If a school setting creates the kind of stress to drive average adults to violence more than other places you should be able to show it.

And saying it should be provable is not an opinion.

 

[Grand Prix]

Hmmm. All we need to do is get teachers to stop using Internet Explorer and we're golden.

 

[terminator363]

Hmmm. All we need to do is get teachers to stop using Internet Explorer and we're golden.

Good luck with that, all my teachers use IE. Ugh...

 

[BobK]

Humor me, just once. Please state what you think my claim is. Don't quote anything. I'd like to hear your own words and interpretation.

Seems to me that your claim is that eventually, with 100% certainty, even if it takes a thousand years for it to happen, that an armed teacher is going to lose it and shoot a student.

And that teachers being unable to stop hundreds of Sandy Hook style shootings is somehow preferable to having this one incident occur.

By the same logic a teacher might someday become so upset with a student that the teacher deliberately runs them over in the school parking lot, and therefore we should ban all teachers from driving automobiles on school parking lots and driveways.

 

[Nicksfix]

Fontana California is beefing up the school security system. They have just purchased 14 AR-15's. These units will be in lock safes, ready to be used if the situation should so arise.

"It's unfortunate that we have to have that, but its the best message we can send to anybody that thinks to harm our children," Police Chief Rodney Jones told CBS. "The message we're sending is... not here, not now, we're prepared for you, we will neutralize that threat, and you will most likely be killed."

Full story

 

[Nicksfix]

Tennessee Senator Frank Nicely has proposed an all out call ... to put in place an armed guard at every public school. If the school can not afford it, then measures would be taken to put in place a qualified teacher to be able to carry a gun.

Video

As a side note, 2 more Texas schools now have teachers who are packing.
Article

It would appear that this is the road that the States / districts are choosing to go on. Until suitable measures are taken to protect the lives of children and the teachers within the school, this is what we will see more of.

 

[Danoff]

Phenomenal article on gun control - part of which discusses the pros and cons of arming teachers and posting armed guards in schools.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArtic...nd_Amendment_advocate&slreturn=20130112104315

 

[Zenith]

I'm going to post a reply which focuses on drugs in this thread, a reply that focuses on teachers in the Guns thread, and a reply that focuses on guns in the Drugs thread.

 

[Danoff]

 

[Zenith]

You're right, that's a great article. I'd like to see a mental health expert comment on the feasibility of his proposals regarding crazy people buying guns.

 

[Nicksfix]

From Danoffs article :

About two-thirds of public schools are elementary schools, thus educators and parents would have to assess if young children could be psychologically stressed by the presence of armed guards. Assuming that problem can be addressed, the idea has considerable merit—and its implementation would have an immediate impact. Gun-free school zones have been a magnet for the mentally deranged. We have armed guards in banks, airports, power plants, courts, stadiums, government buildings, and on planes. There is no reason why armed guards at all public schools—not just 28 percent of them—should not be considered.

Children see armed people (cops - guards - military personnel) all the time. Seeing a person with a weapon should pose no problem to a child's acceptance of such a person being in a school and safeguarding them.

In fact, it might even be desirable to extend the program—on a strictly volunteer basis—to teachers and principals. They would require extensive background screening and psychological testing, as well as classroom and practical training—roughly equivalent to what sky marshals now get. The teachers and principals wouldn't necessarily carry firearms, but the weapons would be accessible—subject, of course, to proper safe-storage regulations.

This is fine and dandy. I personally think that if an assailant is aware that the schools are armed, it will (should) act as a deterrent.

With this scenario, there is just 1 thing that may raise a question. What if ... there were another shooting at a school where there was a firearm held up in a locksafe. Where is the locksafe located ? Principals office more than likely. Where is the Principals office located within the school building ? Is it centrally located ? Is it at one end of the building ? How much time will it take to get the firearm unlocked, then will it have to be loaded ? Here we are at the time scenario thing again. It will only take seconds for a perp to wreak havoc. How much time will it take to get the gun out, load it, then get to the location within the building where the shooting is taking place ? More than a few seconds.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against putting a gun within a school in a locksafe. In fact, I'm for it. One just has to keep in mind the timing factor to address a situation, should it so arise. Hence why arming a teacher who is in the appropriate vicinity of the situation, could possibly cut down on this factor.

Meh, six of one, half dozen of another, who knows.

Oh, (a btw here), 2 more school districts here in Ohio have givin the green light for teachers to carry guns into the classroom.

 

[Keef]

I think the only real potential side effect of armed guards at schools would be kids growing up expecting to be protected by somebody else. They'd be even more likely to give up their guns to the police because they've always been told that guy outside the door is there to protect you. Call him when something goes wrong. And I think that's just terrible.

 

[Pupik]

I think the only real potential side effect of armed guards at schools would be kids growing up expecting to be protected by somebody else. They'd be even more likely to give up their guns to the police because they've always been told that guy outside the door is there to protect you.

That's a stretch, unless people want an armed guard everywhere (post office, restaurants, bus stops, et al). The point was for places where you couldn't/can't arm yourself.