Teachers with guns ?
- Thread starter Nicksfix
- 648 comments
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Jubby
Premium
- 1,528
- Maine
- jubbyboi617
Wait, your anti guns, but promote rubber bullets and stun-guns.
Is it just a gun, or do you want to eliminate knives, batons, or bunsen burners (just to name 3 objects)? They can all be lethal. I remember a great trick from chem class that any good science student/teacher can use against an assailant. Not very helpful in the non-lab classes, though.
- 4,543
- Bay Area, CA
- Zenith113
@Alternative defense options.
Keep in mind that the goal is to stop whatever threat will be encountered. The life of the attacker is worth less than the lives and safety of the victims since the attacker has temporarily forfeited their right to life by attempting to violate the rights of others.
The drawback to Tasers has already been mentioned. You'd best hope you don't miss and that your target is alone, in close range, and doesn't react like this (LANGUAGE WARNING). Tasers require a circuit running through the person's body to work. Something like a jacket can render a Taser completely ineffective. Struggling and convulsing when being tased can remove or break the probes. Humans do not make good circuit boards thus the Taser does not do a reliable job of shocking humans.
Rubber bullets are usually tuned to a specific distance. Something like 40 yards. Get much farther away and they become useless. Much closer and you might as well have used regular bullets. This is why they are used by riot police who have a decent level of control as to what range they will be using the rubber bullets. It wouldn't be a smart move to load rubber bullets with the intent of responding to a threat like one would use a concealed gun with regular ammunition for since the distance will not be under the control of the responder.
If you can invent some miracle device that can incapacitate without lethal force with 100% effectiveness at the ranges required, I'd be all over it. That device does not exist, so it's best to err on the side of lethality instead of ineffectiveness. Even as things stand, handguns (The most common concealed weapon option) are lacking in effectiveness especially against the prepared types of people who shoot up schools.
Keep in mind that the goal is to stop whatever threat will be encountered. The life of the attacker is worth less than the lives and safety of the victims since the attacker has temporarily forfeited their right to life by attempting to violate the rights of others.
The drawback to Tasers has already been mentioned. You'd best hope you don't miss and that your target is alone, in close range, and doesn't react like this (LANGUAGE WARNING). Tasers require a circuit running through the person's body to work. Something like a jacket can render a Taser completely ineffective. Struggling and convulsing when being tased can remove or break the probes. Humans do not make good circuit boards thus the Taser does not do a reliable job of shocking humans.
Rubber bullets are usually tuned to a specific distance. Something like 40 yards. Get much farther away and they become useless. Much closer and you might as well have used regular bullets. This is why they are used by riot police who have a decent level of control as to what range they will be using the rubber bullets. It wouldn't be a smart move to load rubber bullets with the intent of responding to a threat like one would use a concealed gun with regular ammunition for since the distance will not be under the control of the responder.
If you can invent some miracle device that can incapacitate without lethal force with 100% effectiveness at the ranges required, I'd be all over it. That device does not exist, so it's best to err on the side of lethality instead of ineffectiveness. Even as things stand, handguns (The most common concealed weapon option) are lacking in effectiveness especially against the prepared types of people who shoot up schools.
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- 95
- United States
- x3n0-asx
Well, another school shooting happened. I didn't know whether to put this here or in the America thread.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...led-as-fallen-hero-after-school-shooting?lite
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...led-as-fallen-hero-after-school-shooting?lite
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- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
No mention of where the gun came from, and last I checked most places don't allow children that young to own a handgun.
Unfortunately, this appears to be a case where the teacher being armed may not have made a difference. He was shot trying to talk the student down. I can't imagine the teacher would have opened fire first if he had been armed.
If reports are accurate, this sounds like a case where a troubled youth did not have the support necessary to deal with the issues of being bullied or harassed. I have a feeling that as the information about this kid comes out we'll find out he was picked on a lot.
- 5,230
- Buckeye Nation
The gun used belonged to his parents. It was taken from the home, illegally, I'm sure. Why did I say illegally ? Common sense would dictate that the parents just did not hand the firearm over to their child and send him off to school with it.
(Article)
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
The gun used belonged to his parents. It was taken from the home, illegally, I'm sure. Why did I say illegally ? Common sense would dictate that the parents just did not hand the firearm over to their child and send him off to school with it.
(Article)
Never fear the anti-gun crowd will still use this, and ignore that not even the strictest of current proposals would have prevented this.
- 5,230
- Buckeye Nation
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Do parents not understand a simple trigger lock or lock box? No one says you have to go out and buy a Liberty gun safe but some preventive measure would be nice.
- 2,858
- Australia
As a non-gun person I can say that those of you getting on the front foot and condemning irresponsible gun owners resounds quite well with me. Much more than the same old "Oh, here we go again with the media circus, and anti-gun imbeciles in the government".
The "traitor" within your own ranks is much more dangerous to your cause than anyone within the enemy's ranks.
The "traitor" within your own ranks is much more dangerous to your cause than anyone within the enemy's ranks.
- 12,389
- Betelgeuse
- Beeblebrox_237
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
Every time I see an American school shooting on our news I think 'that's shocking, surely this will be the moment American society sees itself for what it is and instigates some changes'.
But as always, no consideration is given to fixing the fundamental cultural problem.
The American Government should issue every citizen in the country with a gun and get it over with - it would either be the perfect deterrent, or a great way to reduce the number of stupid people in your country... which would probably help reduce you deficit too.
But as always, no consideration is given to fixing the fundamental cultural problem.
The American Government should issue every citizen in the country with a gun and get it over with - it would either be the perfect deterrent, or a great way to reduce the number of stupid people in your country... which would probably help reduce you deficit too.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I don't really see why, with anything in life those who use responsibly will condemn those who don't and jeopardize it for all. Clearly you still don't know why we argue for gun rights if you cant understand this simple matter.
Well speaking of stupid, generalized comments like this are overtly ignorant. I mean instead of the daft rhetoric you just spewed why not look up the fact that even with this daunting sensationalized news, something your nation is very famous for you'd find the underlying truth. The reality is that even with what is shown homicide rates among children is significantly down and the likelihood of being killed in such a manner is 2%, if you'd like more info the CDC has nice flow charts and summaries for even the most general of sorts.
Also not sure how getting rid of stupid people brings down the deficit, unless you are telling us cryptically to go attack politicians. *sarcasm obviously on this last portion.
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- 11,947
- Australia
- I_Grayson_Fox_I
This is law in Australia
All Australian states require that firearms must be locked in steel cabinets or safes, with the ammunition (and bolt if readily removed) stored either in a separate safe or in a separate locked section of the safe. It is a legal requirement that the safe is bolted to the wall or floor (with exceptions for some very heavy safes that are not easily moved). In addition, shooters in Western Australia must have double locks on their safes. Police may inspect the storage facility before issuing a licence, and will make random checks to ensure that legislation is being complied with. The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia endorses this policy with its "Secure your gun, Secure your sport" campaign to increase firearm safety and prevent theft.
Requirements vary when transporting firearms in vehicles in different states. Most require that the gun is hidden from view, and locked so that it is not easily reached by an unauthorised person. Firearms must be unloaded and the ammunition transported in another section of the car.
Maybe something similar should be done in the US.
If a kid takes a gun from the parents because the gun was in a draw or another easy to reach spot, the parent/registered owner should be charged with any crimes the kid commits.
A child should never know the combination to the gun safe and should be supervised at all times when they have a gun
- 86,702
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
It is.
It varies state by state (and even county by county and city by city) but it's largely not far off what you say. Remember the Range Rover vs. Biker thing a month back and all the comments saying "I'd have just shot at them"? Well in NYC you can't transport a gun in the vehicle cabin, only in a locked box in the boot...
You can read the states' relevant gun laws here.
This already happens - someone complicit in helping a crime to occur is charged as an accessory to it.
And this is kinda basic parenting, rather than something that needs to be changed by "American society" or, worse, legislation.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Trust me so does the IDPA and IPSC and the NRA and any other gun/sportsman shooting association. There are laws on the book to have guns in safe keeping away from children and so on and so forth, sometimes I wonder if you guys really think America is the old west when really you should question if our people really care about obeying laws in general.
I'll save you the time and say it's the latter.
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
I'm not sure if I understood your rant correctly...
Sounds like you're saying school shootings aren't shocking events? Have Americans become that desensitised to School shootings that they are now just an acceptable statistic?
The statistics below show that these sorts of events are on the increase, which should tell you something given US murder rates have actually fallen over the same time period...
1991 - 1999 34 'school shootings' 70 dead
2000 - 2009 40 'school shootings' 82 dead
2010 - 2013 46 'school shootings' 61 dead
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
Surely society should do everything within its power to protect its children from these sorts of acts?
The reporting of these type of events on British news channels (BBC/SKY/C4) typically adopts a sad, reserved and respectful tone. The 'sensationalized' news is reserved for celebrities and politicians private lives in the news papers - not unlike the US media.
More broadly, although the murder rate per head of population has declined in America over the past 10 years, it still has a one of the highest murder rates per head of population of any developed country - 4 x UK, 5 x Germany and 12 x Japan, for example. To think this has nothing to do with the culture of gun ownership is ignoring reality.
Ultimately, where do you think your society will end up if the answer to people getting killed by guns is we need more guns?
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
If that's the way you want to put it, though I never said that. Just stating reality while you rather sensationalize.
Once again the CDC, has the most current info for you. I've given you a source to look at all you have to do is enter it into google and then click away. And you just echoed what I said, even though the news blows up here with every incident the fact is children dying due to homicide from this or anything is at an all time low (even with your supposed increase) and it is still one of the most unlikely ways for a child to die.
Sure they should who is saying they shouldn't, clearly you misunderstood me which, though in your defense you didn't understand my plain English argument.
Are you Piers Morgan? I mean hell the sensationalist out cry but no actual efficient insight or solution of your own and so on just screams Piers Morgan.
- 86,702
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
It doesn't. It doesn't even correlate to gun ownership - there are a hundred times more guns in the USA than the UK (300m to 3m), but only 4 times the murder rate? Germany has five times the firearm proliferation of the UK (30% to 6%), but a lower murder rate?
It has to do with the culture of a lack of respect for human life. Guns are just an easy tool to express that lack of respect - and an easy scapegoat to blame instead of it.
The thing about schools is that there's no guns there.
In fact the thing about every spree killing (4 or more victims killed in one location) in the USA since 1945 is that there's no guns there - they've all been in locations where members of the public were not permitted firearms. Even the Fort Hood shooting - a military base - occurred where the majority of the population was disarmed by regulation, with only the MPs armed. The shooting in Aurora took place not at the nearest cinema to the gunman's home (nor at any of the four nearest showing The Dark Knight Rises that night), but at the only no-carry one.
It's like killers who want to kill as many people as they can pick people that can't fight back. The solution to that isn't "disarm more people" or "make guns more illegal", because these guys were carrying weapons illegally anyway when they went to kill people (knowing that killing people is illegal too). For that matter it's almost like they want notoriety for their deeds, and that doesn't have a solution which is "Give them nicknames for their crimes and 24hr news coverage for a week".
So what needs changing? It's not the guns, it's the people.
Spree killing nutjobs needs to stop being headline news - they get a report, not a sensationalised rolling, live-at-the-scene, blow-by-blow all-action spectacle with helicopter cams.
They need to stop giving them nicknames for their crimes - James Holmes isn't the Aurora Cinema Shooter or the Dark Knight Killer, he's the Attention Whoring Coward. Or just James Holmes.
But above that, people need to learn that other people aren't disposable obstacles to their own happiness - with rights come responsibilities.
It's not easy. Doing something about guns is easier - but you should never take the wrong course because it's easy and the right one is hard if you actually want to fix the problem.
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
Then kindly enlighten me on what you really meant? Sounds like you're accepting school shootings as a simply a 'reality' of life, which is saddening if representative of the National view.
We're not talking about general homicide rates though, are we? We're talking about school shootings - which statistics show are on the increase.
Heh, not sure what Piers has to do with anything.
Surely the solution, whilst seemingly not palatable, remains obvious?
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
No it doesn't Famine wrote it out for you, not sure if you have him on ignore, or you think the safe bet is to argue it out with me. We could go for weeks if you wish, I can fit you in.
Um when I do talk about the homicide rate I'm only speaking of children, a big portion of the CDC findings was in regards to school mass shooting, and as I've pointed out twice already you can see that on their website. Also they give info on school shooting, and NBC (which is not very gun friendly) also showed these findings and how though it may seem there are more shooting, it doesn't correlate into more children dead. It actually shows that less kids are dying due to gun violence and at 2% likelihood of it happening to any child.
So I've given you the group(s) that gave this info and a place or even places to find it. If you wish to keep ignoring it though, not much I can do for you wanting to be naive.
Also murder is a reality, it is no more sad in a school or toward an innocent child sleeping in a urban neighborhood via gang violence. People are always dying due to another person's ignorance, and that is a reality but I never dictated to allow it because it is reality you came to that conclusion about me, which is yet again you being naive. Sorry if you don't like the reality of people being callous, but at the same time why should everyone give up their right to own a firearm responsibly due to it? Knee jerk reactions or emotion based decisions never lead to smart long term outcomes.
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- 11,947
- Australia
- I_Grayson_Fox_I
Well the fact that there are more and more school shootings or reports of kids getting ahold of guns shows that it is not really working.
Toughen the laws up, make the parents more responsible for the actions of their child who steals the gun.
- 86,702
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Nope. It shows you're becoming more and more informed of them. Nothing else.
How does one do that exactly? If a law isn't working, as you suggest, how does one change it so it does work?
They're already charged as accessory to any crime they commit - which carries the same sentences as an adult committing the same crime. How much more do you want it?
The thing is, there's a baseline to all things and that baseline is stupidity.
You'll never eradicate road deaths, because there are stupid people. You'll never stop kids getting hold of something they shouldn't and using it for malice (even accidentally), because kids are stupid people. You'll never eradicate people being killed by other people, because there are stupid people.
And stupid people can be clever people who just drop concentration for a moment - carelessness from thoughtlessness. Accidental deaths, deaths through carelessness and thinking you are in a position to determine whether someone should live or die - the baseline is stupidity.
The solution to stupidity is education, not legislation - but it'll never go away. Remember, half of all the people you'll ever meet are below average intelligence.
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