Tesla Master Plan: Part Deux

[MatskiMonk]

Up to 6 years to deliver a car you failed to achieve key advertised specifications on when you started taking money for it, for a guy that refers to being conscious of social injustice and discrimination is a mind virus, wants to monetize replacing you with a humanoid robot, and who's company is repeatedly sued for discrimination against workers...

Dunno about Cammisa, but... if I worked for Tesla I'd probably be a bit depressed.

 

[Joey D]

Yes, but are GM, Ford and Stellantis really different?

Judging by the numerous people I know that work there, yes. I have friends that have worked for both one of the American Big 3 and Tesla and they all say the same thing about how the pay at Tesla was great but the workplace culture was awful.

 

[Tornado]

Yes, but are GM, Ford and Stellantis really different?

One side of that coin just recently just had its workers win almost everything they wanted (except the stuff that was probably just Ecclestone-esque "suggest stuff they'll never agree to so they approve the stuff we do want") in a massive strike that cost the respective automakers billions of dollars each.

The other side of that coin is people working at the company seeking in part to solve its "the state our main factory headquarters is in keeps suing us for violating COVID restrictions, being too racist, being too union busting and being too unsafe" problem by moving their headquarters to a different state that actively likes most of those things even before the CEO decided his main job was amplifying far right conspiracy theories on Twitter.




Potato Tomato.

 

[inCloud]

You guys just have unhealthy laws that doesn't prevent exploitation.

 

[Joey D]

You guys just have unhealthy laws that doesn't prevent exploitation.

It's probably best for the Russian to not start throwing around comments about exploitation.

Most employers in America are fine. It's just that Musk has a cult-like following among bros who live on hustle culture, so they work for him and don't complain about the terrible work environments. If you work for one of the other automakers in America, you have a pretty good job that isn't unreasonable.

 

[eran0004]

Top Gear also liked it, but I think this review is a bit more honest. At the very end he talks about rippling in the panels, awkward edging at the corners. You can see that, and @Famine's favorite corner in everything they're showing. You kindof have to forgive the panels as being inferior in some ways for... perhaps some benefit.

About the paneling though. I do hate that it was designed from the outside in - with the wedge shape picked first and the engineering followed suit. I don't know whether it's total fabrication that the skin being rigid is an advantage and results in weight savings, but if that is true and not just marketing, it does provide a little justification for the odd shape.

Do I want one? No. Not remotely. I am interested in what happens with this weird exoskeleton going forward though. Does it get dropped as a gimmick, or is it actually useful? Panel durability and rigidity are highlighted for crash, scratch, dent, body flex, and even weight savings. It comes at the cost of a flat, difficult to fabricate body and some ugly seams.

Corner points are usually the weakest point of a surface, since you tend to get stress concentrations in those areas. Also, curved surfaces are generally stronger than flat surfaces, so I don’t really see any structural benefit from the design they’ve chosen.

 

[Danoff]

Corner points are usually the weakest point of a surface, since you tend to get stress concentrations in those areas. Also, curved surfaces are generally stronger than flat surfaces, so I don’t really see any structural benefit from the design they’ve chosen.

The structural benefit is apparently that the skin is a stronger material which can bear some of the stress itself.

 

[inCloud]

It's probably best for the Russian to not start throwing around comments about exploitation.

Well, we have nicely balanced labour laws and healthcare that could save your life without bankrupting. Far from ideal, but okish.

If you work for one of the other automakers in America, you have a pretty good job that isn't unreasonable.

Until you have not.

 

[Tornado]

You guys just have unhealthy laws that doesn't prevent exploitation.

That has little bearing on the question of whether GM, Ford and Chrysler (or Toyota or VW or Honda or Hyundai or Kia or BMW or Mercedes Benz or Lucid or Rivian) are "really different from Tesla" when it comes to treating their employees like garbage. The BMW and Mercedes plants that have operated in South Carolina/Alabama (states at least as hostile to all the things Tesla doesn't like as Texas is) for 25 years don't seem to have had the issues that the old NUMMI plant have in just the past 5 years.



Nevermind that I literally pointed out that Tesla moved so much of their stuff to Texas to skirt the laws California did have that Texas actively abhors.

 

[JacoJa]

The fact that that's the pull quote you put as your lead in for why people should watch an 80 minute video suggests that you are incapable of such embarrassment.

It was the most impactful quote to summarise how far ahead Teslas engineering and manufacturing departments are compared to its competitors, following an hour of more detailed explanations on the Cybertrucks engineering. Nothing embarrassing about posting Jasons own summary, even when it's a very obvious edgy exaggeration.

 

[inCloud]

BMW and Mercedes

There are differences between companies with different origins. Not sure about Koreans in US, but local factory wasn't best place in the world.

Tesla moved so much of their stuff to Texas to skirt the laws California did have that Texas actively abhors.

Guess, it also has something with average salary in Cali vs Texas.

 

[Joey D]

Well, we have nicely balanced labour laws and healthcare that could save your life without bankrupting. Far from ideal, but okish.

Your country commits genocide, has no economy, conscripts people against their will, doesn't pay their military, and is run by a dictator who either poisons or pushes people out of the window. You're not making the point you think you're making here.

Until you have not.

It's painfully clear you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about. The auto industry in America is a good place to work. Nearly every one of my friends and most of my family works in the automotive industry. If you work in manufacturing for the automakers you're also backed by one of the strongest unions in the country.

 

[McLaren]

One side of that coin just recently just had its workers win almost everything they wanted (except the stuff that was probably just Ecclestone-esque "suggest stuff they'll never agree to so they approve the stuff we do want") in a massive strike that cost the respective automakers billions of dollars each.

The other side of that coin is people working at the company seeking in part to solve its "the state our main factory headquarters is in keeps suing us for violating COVID restrictions, being too racist, being too union busting and being too unsafe" problem by moving their headquarters to a different state that actively likes most of those things even before the CEO decided his main job was amplifying far right conspiracy theories on Twitter.




Potato Tomato.

And just for added fun, it's a state that is completely against Tesla's operation of direct-to-consumer, not to mention, run by people also against the very EVs Tesla has made popular.

 

[JacoJa]

Here's my guess

Not more than 45,000 CTs will be delivered to customers in 2024.

Good guess. 👍 The more I learn about the construction of the CT, the more I think the initial first-year ramp will be difficult. It's tricky to guess as there's too many variables to take into account, but I'm going to go for 35,000 for 2024, a bit over 100,000 for 2025, then over 200,000 units in 2026 and beyond.

 

[inCloud]

Your country commits genocide, has no economy, conscripts people against their will, doesn't pay their military, and is run by a dictator who either poisons or pushes people out of the window. You're not making the point you think you're making here.

While you somewhat right, I don't understand how its related to labour laws and healthcare. Nazi Germany was a horrible state, but their laws about animals were awesome even by today standards. Does it mean we shouldn't treat animals same way?

It's painfully clear you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about.

Tesla winning, China rising and old school companies changing too slow. We are not in 70s, but I could see some problems for US automotive industry in the future. Its happen in the past, could happen in future.

 

[JacoJa]

Tesla winning, China rising and old school companies changing too slow.

Yep.

The UAW have been lining the Democrats' pockets for decades, so expect unionised auto makers to receive bailouts when they inevitably won't make the EV transition this decade.
Of course, this will need to be followed-up by a complete company/supplier/tooling restructure if they intend on seeing any form of profitability from BEV sales. Will be far easier and cheaper to plonk some panels and a GM badge on a licensed BYD platform.

 

[Tornado]

R1600 is still here in spirit.

 

[Joey D]

While you somewhat right, I don't understand how its related to labour laws and healthcare. Nazi Germany was a horrible state, but their laws about animals were awesome even by today standards. Does it mean we shouldn't treat animals same way?

You were criticizing US labor laws, something you don't know about. I'm just pointing out that the guy from Russia is one of the last people who should be criticizing other countries because of all the listed reasons.

Tesla winning, China rising and old school companies changing too slow. We are not in 70s, but I could see some problems for US automotive industry in the future. Its happen in the past, could happen in future.

Tesla isn't winning anything. China isn't really rising either. And old school companies are old school companies for a reason, you don't stay in business for over 100 years by making rash decisions.

But whether or not the US auto industry has problems is a moot point, given what you were saying. You're suggesting that all automakers don't treat their employees well or that people who work for them don't have good jobs. I'm telling you that you don't know what you're talking about.

Yep.

The UAW have been lining the Democrats' pockets for decades, so expect unionised auto makers to receive bailouts when they inevitably won't make the EV transition this decade.
Of course, this will need to be followed-up by a complete company/supplier/tooling restructure if they intend on seeing any form of profitability from BEV sales. Will be far easier and cheaper to plonk some panels and a GM badge on a licensed BYD platform.

The UAW isn't lining the pockets of Democrats. They're lining their own pockets, but all unions do that to some degree. As for the bailouts, that happened 15 years ago. It's safe to say the industry has moved on from that. It didn't make sense for any of the American automakers to build EVs during their bailout either because no one would've bought one.

But there is a reason why the US automakers aren't shifting to EVs all that quickly. EVs don't sell in the same numbers that ICE vehicles do because to the average consumer, EVs aren't worth it. There's little support infrastructure or them and there's still a big unknown about long-term costs regarding an EV. Will the batteries die and need to be replaced to the tune of several thousand dollars? What happens when the technology becomes outdated? Will the vehicle cease to work?

There's also the ever-present range anxiety factor with EVs too. Many buyers don't like the idea that they can't just pull into a fuel station and be on their way again in less than five minutes. Charging times that take 30+ minutes is not what the average person wants to deal with and while the likelihood that most people would never be in that situation, there's still a "what if".

EVs are still expensive when compared to ICEs as well. I mean, all new cars are expensive, but if you're going to pony up $60,000 for a vehicle, are you going to buy the ICE with good fuel economy and plenty of features or the EV with iffy features and unknown maintenance expenses? You also have to take into account who's buying new vehicles. It's not young people but rather older people who have the money to do so. There's still a big technology lag among older people and many won't trust the tech. I'm sure if Gen Z kids had the money, they'd probably be buy EVS, same with Gen Alpha, but they're still young and haven't made enough money yet to be considering $60,000 cars.

There's also the question of whether EVs really are the end goal too. I don't believe that they are, but rather just a stopgap until we figure out something better. Fuel cells and eFuels are getting better all the time and they both make more sense from a consumer perspective.

 

[Tornado]

To be fair, the prediction that domestic automakers are going to inevitably fall so far behind Tesla and the Chinese automakers (that US politicians will also apparently turn a blind eye to their products being dumped on the US market) that the US is going to bail them out instead of a much easier solution of altering the regulations they supposedly have no chance of meeting is pretty amusing.



Particularly in the context of the thread's most recent news being that the entry level Cybertruck is barely at par with an existing truck Ford strapped a bunch of batteries to when it is actually available to purchase in two years.

There are differences between companies with different origins. Not sure about Koreans in US, but local factory wasn't best place in the world.

Guess, it also has something with average salary in Cali vs Texas.

"Not sure" and "guess" are some strong words for someone repeatedly insisting any auto factory is interchangeable with that of any other manufacturer in the US.

 

[inCloud]

You were criticizing US labor laws, something you don't know about. I'm just pointing out that the guy from Russia is one of the last people who should be criticizing other countries because of all the listed reasons

1) You don't know what I know.
2) blatant whatabouttism

Tesla isn't winning anything.

Model Y is bestselling world wide

China isn't really rising either.

Top selling EVs in first half of 2023 are two Teslas and 8 Chinese

You're suggesting that all automakers don't treat their employees well or that people who work for them don't have good jobs.

I am not. I saying Tesla and big 3 workers weren't happy with conditions. If something needs strike to be changed - it doesn't work well.

 

[Joey D]

1) You don't know what I know.
2) blatant whatabouttism

I know you don't know about the US because you've consistently shown you don't know about the US.

Model Y is bestselling world wide

Maybe, but Tesla groups the Model 3 and Model Y sales together.

Is Tesla Model Y the World’s Best-Selling Car? Nope, Not Even Close

But Tesla’s revenues and profits are up, and the Cybertruck and Robotaxi are still on for debuts this year.

www.autoweek.com

Tesla Just Passed 4 Million Cumulative Sales (Charts) - CleanTechnica

Below are 9 charts showing Tesla's rapid quarterly sales charts and graphs as well as its cumulative sales growth from quarter to quarter. Tesla's sales growth continues to be phenomenal.

cleantechnica.com

The Toyota Corolla is still likely the best-selling single model in the world. If you combined the Corolla and Corolla Cross though, it would probably jump ahead.

Top selling EVs in first half of 2023 are two Teslas and 8 Chinese

That still doesn't mean China is rising. There are several markets Chinese cars haven't broken into and they'll likely never break into the US market. Chinese cars sell well, in well, China. China also has 1 out of every 7 people on the planet living there, it's a pretty big market.

I am not. I saying Tesla and big 3 workers weren't happy with conditions. If something needs strike to be changed - it doesn't work well.

The Big 2-2.5 workers are happy enough and it's pretty well known they treat their employees pretty well, whereas Tesla treats its employees like garbage. But you responded to this:

Probably because if you work for another automaker, you're going to be treated better

With this:

Debatable.

It's not debatable. The Big 2-2.5 treat their employees better full stop, but it's not hard to treat your employees better than Tesla. So yes, what you say you're not saying is precisely what you're saying.

 

[Tornado]

Unions in countries other than the US also go on strike. It's kind of the point.

 

[inCloud]

Unions in countries other than the US also go on strike. It's kind of the point.

Point is to negotiate and if negotiations failed you strike. But if after few weeks of strike opponent is ready to deal - someone is doing his job not good enough.

Probably because if you work for another automaker, you're going to be treated better, with better benefits

But you responded to this:

Probably because if you work for another automaker, you're going to be treated better

Cherrypicking.jpg

 

[Tornado]

Striking is a negotiating tactic; but that's irrelevant regardless to your original implication that it makes little difference what automaker you work for in the US.

 

[Joey D]

Unions in countries other than the US also go on strike. It's kind of the point.

Case in point:

Danish dockworkers join Swedish strike action against Tesla

Denmark's 3F labour union said on Tuesday it will support Swedish mechanics in their strike action against Tesla , and will refuse to unload or transport cars made by the U.S. auto company for customers in Sweden.

www.reuters.com

 

[Joey D]

Whomp Whomp

Tesla recalls nearly all vehicles sold in US to fix system that monitors drivers using Autopilot

The recall comes after a two-year investigation into a series of crashes that happened while the Autopilot partially automated driving system was in use.

apnews.com

 

[Liquid]

The update happens automatically, and does not require a visit to a dealership or garage, but is still referred to by the US regulator as a recall.

Weasel words. It's a recall.

 

[Tornado]

Um actually Tesla specifically needs their own word separate from the universally understood one.

 

[Moglet]

Um actually Tesla specifically needs their own word separate from the universally understood one.

They're using the term "recall" just like everyone else: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autosteer-misuse. Unfortunately nobody seems to have told the Tesla fanatics on social media because they are comparing it to updating your phone. I'm assuming their phones can also become 2 ton projectiles or something.

Interesting to see that it's only being rolled out to the US and Canada, it makes me wonder if other countries already had regulations in place around this. I only really use it when in traffic so can't say I've noticed any oddities besides the odd bit of phantom slowdown (which they really should fix at some point).

 

[Omnis]

Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche and Scout Motors brands to implement the North American Charging Standard in future electric vehicles

Future Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche and Scout electric vehicles to use the North American Charging Standard (NACS) charging port, starting in 2025

newsroom.porsche.com

Well here's a win. VAG/Porsche adopting NACS.