Tesla Model 3 General Discussion

[ProjectWHaT]

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Things are looking pretty serious for Elon...I'm not sure he is going to get through this and remain at Tesla. I think the short sellers really got to him and he's kinda losing it. I think their IPO was premature and they should have waited until the Model 3 production was really cruising.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/28/tes...panics-over-the-sec-lawsuit-against-musk.html

On the other hand, Tesla is as much about Elon Musk's personality/cult following as it is about the tangible tech. Is Tesla even viable without him? Technically, I imagine it is...but there's a lot of competition inbound.

 

[EngieDiesel]

I think the real question is who would want to take over the company, presuming Musk didn't torpedo it on his way out. Whoever would take over is facing a tremendous amount of yearly debt and a stack of promises that won't be kept easily even if Tesla were turning a profit.

Not too many people would be lining up to take a poisoned chalice, unless they intended to just let it die out and keep the name as portfolio fodder like that Russian guy did with TVR.

 

[CodeRedR51]

He settled. Will step down from his position as chairman of the board and pay $20 million.

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/09/e...ll-resign-tesla-chairman-pay-40-million-fine/

Again, he needs to sell Tesla to the highest bidder and just concentrate on stuff he's really good at, like building rockets.

 

[kikie]

Is this going to be the end of Tesla?

 

[TenEightyOne]

He settled. Will step down from his position as chairman of the board and pay $20 million.

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/09/e...ll-resign-tesla-chairman-pay-40-million-fine/

Again, he needs to sell Tesla to the highest bidder and just concentrate on stuff he's really good at, like building rockets.

He remains as CEO, but obviously that's a somewhat neutered position.

 

[Firehuntah]

Is this going to be the end of Tesla?

I doubt it, most people buying a Tesla aren't doing it for Elon Musk, there's much more to it. You could compare it to Apple and Steve Jobs, did people stop buying Apple products when Tim Cook took over? And as said already, Elon Musk is still CEO, it's just that he can't make all the decisions by himself anymore. So I don't think anything will change really. I think even if he would step down from being CEO as well, people will still continue to buy Tesla's. I do hope he stays and can get his position back in 3 years as it's quite amazing what he has achieved so far.

 

[EngieDiesel]

He remains as CEO, but obviously that's a somewhat neutered position.

Yes, but I doubt the rest of the board of directors is going to suddenly decide to go against his wishes, since they were more than likely handpicked by Musk to support the direction he wants to take the company in.

If the SEC had any real weight behind it, then he would have been removed from the company entirely. Instead, they basically just smacked Elon with a rolled-up newspaper and told him to go sit on the naughty step for a bit.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Yes, but I doubt the rest of the board of directors is going to suddenly decide to go against his wishes, since they were more than likely handpicked by Musk to support the direction he wants to take the company in.

If the SEC had any real weight behind it, then he would have been removed from the company entirely. Instead, they basically just smacked Elon with a rolled-up newspaper and told him to go sit on the naughty step for a bit.

Idk if I could call a $20M fine a slap on the wrist for an ill-advised tweet. It's not like he's running a Ponzi scheme here.

 

[CodeRedR51]

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/10/r...model-3-performance-looks-ready-track-action/

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

That looks nice. From what I've seen, Tesla owners don't generally seem to be the type who care about performance...which is ironic considering their car's massive reserves of it. I've very, very rarely seen a Tesla being driven even moderately quickly. (Compared to folks such as M3 drivers who don't seem to realize the throttle pedal is a precise/adjustable control, rather than an on/off switch).

 

[Dan]

All that work and they still haven’t fixed the front fascia. The Model S and X look proper with their faux grilles. The Model 3 looks completely barren and uninspired between the headlights.

 

[EngieDiesel]

All that work and they still haven’t fixed the front fascia. The Model S and X look proper with their faux grilles. The Model 3 looks completely barren and uninspired between the headlights.

Yeah, the fact that there's that flat spot that looks like a grille should be there always looked kinda unsettling to me. Kinda like those pictures of people's faces where their nose is Photoshopped out.

 

[Dan]

Yeah, the fact that there's that flat spot that looks like a grille should be there always looked kinda unsettling to me. Kinda like those pictures of people's faces where their nose is Photoshopped out.

I’ve seen some lazy 5-minute photoshops of the current Model S mini-grille on the Model 3, and it improves the front so much.

 

[Danoff]

I gotta say, the Model 3 performance version is just... it's making everything else look silly, outdated, and backward. It's absurdly fast, and the model 3's handling is proving to be quite impressive for setting lap times. And the maintenance... no engine oil, no spark plugs, no radiator, no transmission fluid, no fuel filter. I'm guessing there's no engine air filter, no MAF to clean, no intake hoses to crack. Does it even have belts? Tensioners? Even brake pads seem to be few and far between.

 

[homeforsummer]

I gotta say, the Model 3 performance version is just... it's making everything else look silly, outdated, and backward.

It's a shame that Tesla is pretty much the only company making such a thing. Imagine if BMW put more weight behind a fully EV 3-series or Merc a C-class. You have to imagine that at least part of the Model 3's popularity (and Tesla's in general) isn't just the Tesla cult effect but that there is a market out there for EVs of a particular level of ability but so few companies are actually making them.

I know it's aiming at a different market, but it'll be interesting to see how the Hyundai Kona EV and Kia Niro EV do, with 300-ish miles of range but a pricetag a fair way below any Tesla. I think range and price are still as important (possibly more) than headline performance numbers right now, and nobody is really doing that quite right at the moment either.

 

[Danoff]

I think range and price are still as important (possibly more) than headline performance numbers right now, and nobody is really doing that quite right at the moment either.

Not so much for a car that can do 0-60 in 3.x seconds. For that kind of performance, and the everyday livability, it's priced pretty aggressively. Why would you buy a corvette (and never drive it 300 miles) for example?

 

[Keef]

I gotta say, the Model 3 performance version is just... it's making everything else look silly, outdated, and backward. It's absurdly fast, and the model 3's handling is proving to be quite impressive for setting lap times. And the maintenance... no engine oil, no spark plugs, no radiator, no transmission fluid, no fuel filter. I'm guessing there's no engine air filter, no MAF to clean, no intake hoses to crack. Does it even have belts? Tensioners? Even brake pads seem to be few and far between.

The Semi is going to do the same thing to the trucking industry. I can't wait to see it on the roads.

 

[homeforsummer]

Not so much for a car that can do 0-60 in 3.x seconds. For that kind of performance, and the everyday livability, it's priced pretty aggressively. Why would you buy a corvette (and never drive it 300 miles) for example?

True.

That said, I suppose it depends what the venn diagram of people who're likely to buy Teslas and who're likely to buy [fun cars including but not limited to] Corvettes is. There'll be some overlap in the middle with gearheads who don't really care what their vehicle is powered by but just want something that goes and handles great. Otherwise I think it'll be a bunch of people to whom dizzying acceleration alone is enough for a car to be "sporty" (and they'll buy a Tesla) and on the other side are people who don't care how fast a car is unless it has an internal combustion engine and they'll only buy [insert conventional sports car here].

I'm really intrigued to drive a Model 3 because I want to see whether it's really a drivers' car in the conventional sense - agility, and feedback, and connection with the machine, and all those things that make cars fun regardless of how fast it goes in a straight line.

I've spent time in Model Ss before and while they're impressive cars and unbelievably rapid, they'd be a long way down the list of cars I'd want to drive on a fun road, or a track. Yet ask the average owner and they'll say the Model S is the most fun car they've ever driven...

I don't doubt the 3 is better (it's lighter, which is a good start) but I want to know if it's something you could legitimately enjoy as an enthusiast.

 

[Danoff]

I don't doubt the 3 is better (it's lighter, which is a good start) but I want to know if it's something you could legitimately enjoy as an enthusiast.

That's kinda why I picked on the corvette. I was looking for a sizeable vehicle that will be purchased largely for acceleration.

From what I've read thus far, there is no feedback in the steering wheel, just adjustable weight. That kind of thing can be fixed (to some degree anyway), maybe even with software, but for now it's a knock on the 3.

 

[05XR8]

I look at it as having a very quick automatic transmission car. I mean, a GT-R can be left to shift on its own and the enthusiast can just stand on the accelerator all day. What I'm saying is, if I look at past muscle cars. Mainly automatics. The roar of the engine is probably the main deciding factor in having the thrill of driving one. Look at a Regal turbo/T-Type/GN/GNX. It's not a V8, but it is a quick car. Sure, it's got that turbo whine, but is someone less enthusiastic about it, because it doesn't have that V8 rumble?

Mentality has to adjust to the cars out there. I have yet to drive a fast EV. However, I'm excited about them.

And just as I searched for pricing of a Tesla 3, this popped up. I'm really liking this car. Interesting about the mo engine noise issue.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/1...ss-finish-at-buttonwillow-for-being-electric/

 

[homeforsummer]

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about fun electric cars too - though more so about the potential for say, an electric Miata, than a 2-ton sedan that does 60mph in the blink of an eye.

For some, straight-line performance will forever be the be-all and end-all, and that probably goes back to the dawn of the motor car in the first place. But there will always be more to cars than that, and always be more to fun cars than that, regardless of the propulsion.

If you want to draw parallels, a Tesla is kinda like the well-used Camry V6 metaphor. A Camry V6 is a pretty quick vehicle these days, quicker than plenty of much sportier vehicles. If that's all there was to it though, a Camry V6 would be heralded as one of the great sports sedans.

But of course that's not the case. A V6 Camry is quick, and probably even handles tidily these days, but it's also designed to shield you from the driving experience rather than involve you in it. You can go quickly, and there's probably even enough grip to get point-to-point quicker than a lot of cars, but it's fairly one-dimensional.

Now comparing that with a Tesla Model 3 is probably a bit harsh - I've heard enough good things about the 3 that I'm sure it is a bit more engaging than simply being an "electric Camry". But in my experience with electric cars they still have some way to go before they're on par for pure fun with a good internal combustion vehicle, because they do have some inherent drawbacks to involvement - lack of sound, excess weight etc. They do have some things on their side though, which bodes well for the future - linear and responsive performance, potential in torque vectoring and other neat drivetrain tricks etc.

On a much more subjective note, they also have to be visually stimulating. A Tesla is fine, but it's no GT-R, no muscle car, no Miata.

 

[05XR8]

Tesla tried with the Elise looking one. I guess there weren't many takers. Probably for the reasons of range, no engine noise, etc. Looked like a fun car. I guess when their sales numbers go up, a sports car could be on the cards. Just seems like they're selling the "Why do you need a sports car, when you can out accelerate one?".

I Googled electric drift cars and found a Tesla powered BMW and an all electric AE86. I guess if a few show up in SEMA or TAS and add a bit of street cred from a respected tuner, could set these cars off nicely.. Maybe a Mad Mike or V.Gitten Jr version.

 

[mustafur]

It's about time Tesla work on the styling, it's all looking pretty dated now and very bland.

 

[homeforsummer]

Tesla tried with the Elise looking one. I guess there weren't many takers. Probably for the reasons of range, no engine noise, etc. Looked like a fun car. I guess when their sales numbers go up, a sports car could be on the cards. Just seems like they're selling the "Why do you need a sports car, when you can out accelerate one?".

The Roadster was the company's first car and built at a time when Tesla was relatively unknown. By those standards I think it did fairly well, and I'm sure it would if it tried again - though the next Roadster, whenever it appears, seems like it's much closer to "supercar" than "lightweight sports car".

Incidentally, the Tesla Roadster illustrated how difficult it is to do the lightweight sports car thing properly with an electric drivetrain - it was about 1300kg, so a good 500kg more than the Elise it was vaguely based upon. Battery tech improvements mean it'd be less than that these days for the same range, but I can understand why it's easier to just bung a battery in a massive saloon and aim for 0-60 times.

 

[Danoff]

but I can understand why it's easier to just bung a battery in a massive saloon and aim for 0-60 times.

I think that's a little unfair to what Tesla is doing. Even if it was directed at the model S. Tesla is reimagining cars in a big way, interior, exterior, drivetrain, etc.

 

[homeforsummer]

I think that's a little unfair to what Tesla is doing. Even if it was directed at the model S. Tesla is reimagining cars in a big way, interior, exterior, drivetrain, etc.

I'm not sure that's the case. Tesla isn't fundamentally breaking any new ground on what a car actually is.

The interior is probably the biggest step forward (though how much of a step depends on your views on driver distraction). But the drivetrain really is fairly conventional. They aren't using torque vectoring to really maximise the benefits of electric motors (like Rimac, for example), and the long range is pretty much a case of using large batteries (alongside gradually improving cell technology), a benefit of making large cars.

In terms of electrical efficiency, Teslas come fairly far down the list - in EPA testing a Model 3 (Tesla's most efficient car) is behind an e-Golf, BMW i8, Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Ioniq and a few others, an unavoidable symptom of sacrificing efficiency for size and performance.

And they're about the most conservative company out there for exterior styling - reasonably attractive, sure, but there's nothing about large two-box sedans that reimagines cars in a big way... if anything making the Model 3 a conventional sedan with a trunk is a backward step given the practicality benefits a liftback would have had (and which its styling implies it is).

Don't get me wrong, Tesla is making some very good cars, but they're doing that less by defying convention and more by keeping things fairly simple. From a business perspective, that strategy is fairly wise, given how young the company is.

They're certainly doing more with software, and using customers as beta-testers for autonomous tech etc is clever (if morally dubious in some cases), but at a very basic level... they are kinda just making large saloons with headline-grabbing acceleration figures. The best thing Tesla has offered the automotive world so far is to show it's possible to make a desirable EV - and I think it did take a company like Tesla to shake the industry (and customers) out of its complacency on that.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not sure that's the case. Tesla isn't fundamentally breaking any new ground on what a car actually is.

The interior is probably the biggest step forward (though how much of a step depends on your views on driver distraction). But the drivetrain really is fairly conventional. They aren't using torque vectoring to really maximise the benefits of electric motors (like Rimac, for example), and the long range is pretty much a case of using large batteries (alongside gradually improving cell technology), a benefit of making large cars.

In terms of electrical efficiency, Teslas come fairly far down the list - in EPA testing a Model 3 (Tesla's most efficient car) is behind an e-Golf, BMW i8, Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Ioniq and a few others, an unavoidable symptom of sacrificing efficiency for size and performance.

And they're about the most conservative company out there for exterior styling - reasonably attractive, sure, but there's nothing about large two-box sedans that reimagines cars in a big way... if anything making the Model 3 a conventional sedan with a trunk is a backward step given the practicality benefits a liftback would have had (and which its styling implies it is).

Don't get me wrong, Tesla is making some very good cars, but they're doing that less by defying convention and more by keeping things fairly simple. From a business perspective, that strategy is fairly wise, given how young the company is.

They're certainly doing more with software, and using customers as beta-testers for autonomous tech etc is clever (if morally dubious in some cases), but at a very basic level... they are kinda just making large saloons with headline-grabbing acceleration figures. The best thing Tesla has offered the automotive world so far is to show it's possible to make a desirable EV - and I think it did take a company like Tesla to shake the industry (and customers) out of its complacency on that.

The minimalist interior, the software controls for everything including the glove box release, the door handles, the cell phone entry, autonomous driving, crash detection, the weird air conditioning vents, major OTA software changes, their weird glass roofs, easter eggs, bioweapon defense mode, the EV-that-looks-like-a-regular-car-without-an-open-grille-look, ludicrous mode, OTA extended range for disaster areas. And their electric motors are not designed to be efficient or conservative, it's designed to provide real performance, which is exactly what is great about the company.

So you're criticizing them for not being as efficient as the others, but that's exactly what makes Tesla special. They were the company that stopped seeing EVs as a one-trick pony and envisioned a car that could truly eclipse the ICE.

What's great about Tesla was that they took the stupid-looking slow EVs of the time and the nice looking faster german cars of the time and blended them and added powerful software. That's a real contribution.

 

[Moglet]

A V6 Camry is quick

But not as quick as the 2.2

 

[homeforsummer]

The minimalist interior, the software controls for everything including the glove box release, the door handles, the cell phone entry, autonomous driving, crash detection, the weird air conditioning vents, major OTA software changes, their weird glass roofs, easter eggs, bioweapon defense mode, the EV-that-looks-like-a-regular-car-without-an-open-grille-look, ludicrous mode, OTA extended range for disaster areas. And their electric motors are not designed to be efficient or conservative, it's designed to provide real performance, which is exactly what is great about the company.

I suppose it depends whether you interpret "reimagining" as meaning "positive progress". Minimalism could be construed as "featureless". Requiring touchscreen inputs for everything is certainly unique but possibly technology for technology's sake (it's bad enough using touchscreens with relatively minimal features, let alone using them to change your wipers). Retracting door handles are only (relatively) new to production cars; they've been on concepts for decades. The "weird glass roof" is just a... glass roof with a UV coating. "Bioweapon defense mode" is a clever name for a particle filter, which cars have had for decades. Easter eggs are a perfect example of Musk being wonderful at smoke and mirrors - making your car flap its doors and play a tune for Christmas makes good Youtube videos but moves the automobile industry on precisely nought.

If Tesla's goal is to scattergun ideas regardless of whether they're any good or not then they're undoubtedly succeeding, but it's scraping the barrel somewhat to suggest that "cars without grilles" and "weird air conditioning vents" are "reimagining cars".

As before: Tesla's greatest contribution to the industry is to make electric cars cool by making good products. Something we agree on!:

They were the company that stopped seeing EVs as a one-trick pony and envisioned a car that could truly eclipse the ICE.

What's great about Tesla was that they took the stupid-looking slow EVs of the time and the nice looking faster german cars of the time and blended them and added powerful software. That's a real contribution.

Making EVs fast has undoubtedly done huge things for the image of EVs.

And they have done that by [drumroll]... bunging a big battery and powerful motors in a fairly conventional-looking car.

There's plenty of tinsel involved also (autonomy, giant touchscreens) but my point in the post you quoted earlier (to get back to that) was that it's much easier making a fast electric sedan (and hang the weight) than it is to make something light, nimble and engaging like a Roadster and having to work around an unavoidably heavy battery. That bit's not up for dispute, even if I perhaps over-simplified it in my response to @05XR8.