Tesla patents go open source

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"Stealing" research does not deprive the original owner of the research. It is not theft in the sense of property theft, and shouldn't be treated as such.

It's theft of labor - which is exactly the same reason stealing anything is illegal. There is no fundamental difference.

Your labor can produce a value - car or product. Stealing the car deprives you of its value, the value of your labor that you converted into the car. That's fundamentally why stealing the car is theft. Stealing your research deprives you of its value, labor that you've converted into a valued product. It is exactly the same.
 
It's theft of labor - which is exactly the same reason stealing anything is illegal. There is no fundamental difference.

Your labor can produce a value - car or product. Stealing the car deprives you of its value, the value of your labor that you converted into the car. That's fundamentally why stealing the car is theft. Stealing your research deprives you of its value, labor that you've converted into a valued product. It is exactly the same.

Not really.

If someone steals your car, it's gone. Value gone, all gone. You get nothing.
If someone steals your research, then...it depends what they do with it. If they convert your research into an identical product and totally swamp yours, then you've lost everything. If they do nothing, you've lost nothing. In reality, it's probably somewhere in between, you'll get some value from your research but not as much as you might otherwise have done.

The difference being that there is an additional step. Simply taking the information isn't enough. Someone has to convert that into a product and compete with you directly, and depending on the research that's probably a non-trivial process.

That's why stealing an object and "stealing" an idea are not the same. The object is gone, simply by definition of someone else possessing it. The idea is not removed just because someone else possesses it.

For ideas/research, I consider that the thief *gained* value at a lower cost than the original researcher. The original researcher still possesses the same things that he always has.

Until the thief puts himself in direct competition with the original researcher, there's no real reason to feel that the original researcher has been hard done by. If the researcher is denied product sales, or job opportunities because the thief has got there first, then sure. But those are separate actions in addition to the theft.
 
Not really.

If someone steals your car, it's gone. Value gone, all gone. You get nothing.
If someone steals your research, then...it depends what they do with it. If they convert your research into an identical product and totally swamp yours, then you've lost everything. If they do nothing, you've lost nothing. In reality, it's probably somewhere in between, you'll get some value from your research but not as much as you might otherwise have done.

Definitely not true, and it's easier to see with copyright (also IP, same concepts) than patent law. Obviously there was demand for your research or it wouldn't have been stolen, and stealing it reduces that demand - not by a competing product, but through something you created.

The difference being that there is an additional step. Simply taking the information isn't enough. Someone has to convert that into a product and compete with you directly, and depending on the research that's probably a non-trivial process.

Our IP law considers damages when it comes to awards. In your hypothetical the damages would probably at or near 0.

That's why stealing an object and "stealing" an idea are not the same. The object is gone, simply by definition of someone else possessing it. The idea is not removed just because someone else possesses it.

Neither is the point. Labor is the point - which is gone or devalued either way.

For ideas/research, I consider that the thief *gained* value at a lower cost than the original researcher. The original researcher still possesses the same things that he always has.

Not the ability to sell to the thief.

Until the thief puts himself in direct competition with the original researcher, there's no real reason to feel that the original researcher has been hard done by. If the researcher is denied product sales, or job opportunities because the thief has got there first, then sure.

Well I'm glad you agree. The thief denies at least one product sale by stealing. Obviously the thief wanted it, and since he has it, the demand is gone through theft. If the theft was accidental, there may be no damage done.
 
It's theft of labor - which is exactly the same reason stealing anything is illegal. There is no fundamental difference.

Your labor can produce a value - car or product. Stealing the car deprives you of its value, the value of your labor that you converted into the car. That's fundamentally why stealing the car is theft. Stealing your research deprives you of its value, labor that you've converted into a valued product. It is exactly the same.

You can't have a property right in the value of some property, but only in its physical integrity. Splitting hairs here, but that's not fundamentally why theft is theft. Someone stealing my car deprives me of my property, not of its value.

Obviously, intellectual property cannot be consumed. The productive power of an idea is inexhaustible-- you don't need to re-discover the recipe each time you make a cake. Ideas cannot then be considered an economic good.

Creation does not establish ownership. Ownership is wholly dependent on the property input. Can you imagine how many claims there'd be on your property if you actually purported to own an idea? All the input to your output, formulated from a sea of information, none of which belongs to you. It'd be absurd. Labor does not factor into ownership (rights). Marx cranked that idea up to 11.

Property rights are derived from scarcity. There can't be a conflict over the use of IP as there would be over a tangible object. The only conflict arises due to the violence of the state when it chooses to grant and enforce monopoly power. (Look how easy it is for the Chinese to make bootleg goods. .. Another failure of the state, and demonstrative of how IP is only an arbitrary distinction.)

The system of IP deprives people of their right to use their own property as they see fit. It necessitates a new homesteading rule stating that by creating a pattern or idea, one acquires the right of control over all others’ scarce resources. That is impossible in principle and impractical in its administration.
 
You can't have a property right in the value of some property, but only in its physical integrity. Splitting hairs here, but that's not fundamentally why theft is theft. Someone stealing my car deprives me of my property, not of its value.

No, stealing your car deprives you of the value of your labor. That's why it's theft. That's why ownership exists in this first place. This is not the correct thread to hash this out.

Property rights are derived from scarcity.

Why?

The system of IP deprives people of their right to use their own property as they see fit. It necessitates a new homesteading rule stating that by creating a pattern or idea, one acquires the right of control over all others’ scarce resources.

Only if you misunderstand IP.
 
Why? See Hoppe. We can dig up that other thread if you want.
 
Meanwhile at Tesla HQ

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Labor is the point - which is gone or devalued either way.

But it's not.

An idea can't be taken away, so it can't ever be gone. The closest I can come to actually removing an idea from a person who created it is putting a pickaxe through their skull, and that's a whole different crime.

And you admitted above that there are examples where the damages are at or near zero, so the devaluation is at or near zero also.
 
But it's not.

An idea can't be taken away, so it can't ever be gone. The closest I can come to actually removing an idea from a person who created it is putting a pickaxe through their skull, and that's a whole different crime.

And you admitted above that there are examples where the damages are at or near zero, so the devaluation is at or near zero also.

Yes, but there are examples where the damage is much more than zero as well - this would be similar to all property law. Let's go to the other thread, I'll dig.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/intellectual-property-rights.239476/#post-6497417
 
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"All Our Patent Are Belong To You"? I could construct a sentence properly in third grade. Why can't Elon Musk? I would care a lot more about this story of the title made any sense.
 
"All Our Patent Are Belong To You"? I could construct a sentence properly in third grade. Why can't Elon Musk? I would care a lot more about this story of the title made any sense.

Someone set us up the troll. You have no chance to survive, make your time.
 
Someone set us up the troll. You have no chance to survive, make your time.

Really? I would think that the CEO of a car manufacturer would be expected to use proper grammer.
 
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