The 2017 F1 driver transfer discussion/speculation threadFormula 1

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Alonso as a replacement for Palmer doesn't seem too farfetch'd methinks?

Well just get rid of Latifi, Sirotkin, Kubica, Ocon, Perez, and others and sure. Also they wont try to get him because they don't think they have the car for him to win, like he wants they've said.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Also what is this "poor Alonso stuff?"

If someone has constantly bad luck / karma = poor guy. What's so confusing about that?

I'd like to see the following:

Verstappen replaced Raikkonen.
Ocon replace Bottas.
Alonso replace Perez.

...hey I can dream can't I?

That would actually be perfect. Too perfect...

Ocon super fast talented driver who's willing to put up a fight unlike sleeping pill Bottas. zzZ

Alonso should do great in any even remotely competitive machinery. 👍


Vettel and Verstappen in the same team, drama all day and night, it would never stop, haha.

 

[marco89IT]

Maybe Alonso should start to think about his ego and his big mouth as one of the reasons why top teams are ignoring him. One of the best drivers of the last decade and yet after his titles with Renault he struggled to find a winning car and/or a winning environment, it cannot be only about bad luck or bad timing.
Is there a real need to always emphasize in public how bad and unreliable the Honda engine is? Everybody knows that at this point.
It has become a sort of a comedy show, everybody waiting for the next joke on a team radio or where Alonso's going to go when his car breaks down. Honda is the only responsible for this situation, but Alonso does nothing to help in terms of brand image. Not only for Honda but for the sponsors as well, paying millions to put their brand on a car that everybody's laughing about, also because their star driver does nothing to "contain" these jokes. Given the importance of public relations nowadays, I guess this is an important aspect to consider for top teams and their sponsors.

 

[TheElbows]

I think Alonso is one of the few genuine superstars in the field (I'd probably put him with Hamilton and Vettel as the top three in sheer talent) but he's also old. He's already talking about life post-F1. While he has plenty of talent left you can see there's a ton more interest in promising 18 year olds than guys who are on their way out of the sport.

He's a good option to plug into a team if a seat comes up, but I don't think any serious teams are looking at him for a competitive drive going forward. Teams like Williams would obviously love to have him because their drivers suck and Massa is likely out at the end of the season (again). I do not see Alonso getting a genuine world-beating drive. Would I love to see him replace Raikkonen at Ferrari? Hell friggin' yeah, but that ship has sailed.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

If someone has constantly bad luck / karma = poor guy. What's so confusing about that?.

Because there shouldn't be a poor Alonso this or that, he went to McLaren and didn't like how 2007 went down even though he nearly won another WDC, and arguably could of won the 2008. He says it was McLaren siding with Hamilton and making him (Alonso) alienated. However, McLaren never really agreed with this, and it's important to note this, because Ferrari said similar things after he left them. And that Alonso was the issue and not them, and now as we watch him as frustrating as it may be, he doesn't make the atmosphere any more healthy.

Alonso has had opportunities and left them all for "better" or new chances and yet instead of people looking at it from both sides and objectively assessing the reality. Alonso is the poor guy, rather than the impatient 2 time WDC that probably would have had more to his name had he worked with his team. Seb does it, Lewis does it, both current RBR drivers do it and it shows, complaining about it isn't enough.

I would say that in the current situation perhaps it is out of his hands due to it being an engine maker that is separate mostly from the actual car constructor. However, I can't feel that sorry for him when considering the history that is Fernando Alonso. What's confusing is the lack of deeper analysis on F1 yet those wanting to discuss F1 as if they do.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Because there shouldn't be a poor Alonso this or that, he went to McLaren and didn't like how 2007 went down even though he nearly one another WDC, and arguably could of won the 2008. He says it was McLaren siding with Hamilton and making him alienated. However, McLaren never really agreed with this, and it's important to note this, because Ferrari said similar things after he left.

I've never seen a direct Dennis/Whitmarsh quote that supports Alonso's "number one" claim either despite it having become motorsport "fact". The "history" that Woolf refers to when ruling out Alonso-to-Mercedes is surely Alonso threatening to go to the FIA with what he knew about McLaren-Gate (before it was McLaren-Gate when Dennis pre-empted him) and possibly one of the things that boosted his stock with Ferrari.

As I say time and time again the mark of a great is to manage the sport as much as the driving - the best champions get themselves into the best places the most often. Alonso v1 couldn't do that or, if he got somewhere with potential, would explode out of the side shortly after in a hail of eyebrows. I think Alonso v2 is far more mature and sensible and is now the complete talent that I wish he'd been ten years ago. Sadly he's burnt his bridges and stamped on most of the ashes.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I've never seen a direct Dennis/Whitmarsh quote that supports Alonso's "number one" claim either despite it having become motorsport "fact". The "history" that Woolf refers to when ruling out Alonso-to-Mercedes is surely Alonso threatening to go to the FIA with what he knew about McLaren-Gate (before it was McLaren-Gate when Dennis pre-empted him) and possibly one of the things that boosted his stock with Ferrari.

Exactly, and let's just take a moment to just think about what you've said, it probably did help him gain Ferrari trust and backing to join the team later on, so it's interesting that he was able to easily undo that to the point that Ferrari wouldn't ever want him back.

As I say time and time again the mark of a great is to manage the sport as much as the driving - the best champions get themselves into the best places the most often. Alonso v1 couldn't do that or, if he got somewhere with potential, would explode out of the side shortly after in a hail of eyebrows. I think Alonso v2 is far more mature and sensible and is now the complete talent that I wish he'd been ten years ago. Sadly he's burnt his bridges and stamped on most of the ashes.

Can't really add to that, time and time again it's proven that drivers who stick by their teams and work tirelessly with engineers and testing as well as have massive talent end up continually winning and winning. While other notable drivers simply end up with less at the end of it because of their ego in earlier years.

 

[DesertPenguin09]

I'm gonna start a new phrase.

"When you burn bridges, find better materials and build new ones."

 

[TenEightyOne]

Sainz may be the key to a McLaren-Renault future, Sky claim.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

That's really interesting.

 

[Greycap]

I've never seen a direct Dennis/Whitmarsh quote that supports Alonso's "number one" claim either despite it having become motorsport "fact".

I wouldn't be surprised if Alonso saying "Hamilton was treated as the number one and I didn't like it" really should read "I wasn't treated as the number one and I didn't like it". Alonso is pretty much the stereotype of a driver that got used to having the team built around him in his early years in F1 and nobody has dared to challenge that idea - except Ron Dennis. Even Ferrari changed the car to the pullrod suspension to please Alonso and the results could be seen in a few years.

He's a good driver, absolutely no doubt about that, but definitely not the miracle maker he's often seen as. Getting prefential treatment over team mates explains quite a few things and the years at McLaren just about confirm it as his performance there has never been significantly better than that of the other guy. Vandoorne gets a pass as of now, it's his first year after all.

 

[jake2013guy]

In Alonso related news, he's removed Mclaren from his Twitter profile.

 

[mustafur]

I wonder if that means no Renault engine for next year.

 

[jake2013guy]

I wonder if that means no Renault engine for next year.

Whatever it means, I doubt it means Fernando at Mclaren next year.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Sky now think that Kubica is a no-go for Renault in 2018 and they wonder if he might end up at Williams.

I can answer that one: no, he won't.

I wonder if that means no Renault engine for next year.

We don't know until we know. Renault engines for McLaren seem very likely, with or without Alonso.

EDIT: He's also changed the banner pic from him with the historic McLarens to a pic of his school's karts. Hmmmm.

 

[Liquid]

He's a good driver, absolutely no doubt about that, but definitely not the miracle maker he's often seen as. Getting prefential treatment over team mates explains quite a few things and the years at McLaren just about confirm it as his performance there has never been significantly better than that of the other guy. Vandoorne gets a pass as of now, it's his first year after all.

You can still argue that for almost any top driver; Senna got preferential treatment over Berger, Häkkinen got preferential treatment over Coulthard, Villeneuve got preferential treatment over Frentzen, Vettel got preferential treatment over Webber, Schumacher got preferential treatment over Verstappen, Herbert, Irvine and Barrichello. In fact, the times when teams were playing the 50/50 game (publicly, at least) it has frequently lead to friction and fallout; Pironi and Villeneuve, Senna and Prost, Hamilton and Rosberg, Hamilton and Alonso. Even Tambay and Arnoux having a 50/50 team split arguably cost Ferrari the 1983 title.

The thing which separates some of those cases (Villeneuve/Frentzen, Häkkinen/Coulthard, Vettel/Webber) from other cases (Hamilton/Alonso, Tambay/Arnoux, Pironi/Villeneuve) is vindication. Did the ends of winning the title justify the means of favouring one driver at the expense of another? In the former cases it did (1997, 1998-99 and 2010-14) and in the latter cases of not favouring drivers, it didn't (Räikkönen winning without being considered for the title in 2007, Piquet winning in 1983 and Rosberg winning in a tumultuous 1982); Piquet himself benefitting from a strong advantage over his teammates Hector Rebaque and Riccardo Patrese.

Furthermore, when Alonso has had a good car he has crushed the likes of Giancarlo Fisichella and Felipe Massa at times and even with a mediocre car put Nelson Piquet Jr in the shade. His 2005 and 2006 titles vindicate his preferential treatment at that time. His and Hamilton's failure to secure the 2007 title does not vindicate McLaren's attempt at not publicly favouring one driver or another. Alonso isn't a 'miracle maker' though, no. That's fair to say. The McLarens are terrible with him at the wheel or someone else. But I don't think you could put many of the recent drivers in some of the McLarens he has driven and gotten much more performance out of them.

He's always going to carry clout and influence being one of the top drivers of his era and a double champion but he is also under a lot of scrutiny exactly because of that past success now that he is in bad machinery, whether through his own fault or not, as evidenced by the interest in his career throughout the F1 world to this day.

Sky now think that Kubica is a no-go for Renault in 2018 and they wonder if he might end up at Williams.

I can answer that one: no, he won't.

Why are Renault no longer interested in Kubica?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Why are Renault no longer interested in Kubica?

I think he's possibly a victim of the Honda money. If Honda leave McLaren (which many observers are saying is a done deal with announcement imminent) then Toro Rosso stand to get a big wodge of cash for taking Honda on.

That means that Renault would like something in return for ending the STR engine contract early... and that something is said to be Carlos Sainz Jr for their works team. I linked the story a few posts up. That's a real shame for Kubica if it's the case, and a real shame for the fans too.

The Kubica story is in the Sky Gossip column (so it's copper-bottomed fact!), I've put the text below the link to save all that scrolling

Sky

Spoiler

Robert Kubica is a possible candidate for a 2018 drive with Williams with Renault set to look elsewhere should they drop Jolyon Palmer at the end of the season.

Kubica stepped up his comeback to F1 following career-changing injuries suffered in a 2011 rally crash by driving 142 laps in the RS17 at August’s Hungary Test.

But Renault boss Cyril Abiteboul revealed in Spa that questions remained about the viability of the Pole making a full-time return, and Carlos Sainz is favourite to replace Palmer at the French team.

However, Motorsport Italia claim Kubica’s hopes of returning to F1 could be kept alive by Williams, who are yet to confirm their 2018 driver line-up.

Felipe Massa has yet to decide whether he will extend his return from a brief retirement into a second season, while Williams’ sponsorship agreement with Martini means they need at least one driver over the age of 25.

With Canadian teenager Lance Stroll expected to be retained by Williams, the report claims Kubica and Force India driver are on the Grove-based team’s list of possible replacements for Massa.

 

[FutureF1]

Adding on to removing McLaren from his twitter, Alonso's picture is now a new racing helmet without any McLaren logos on it... Not sure if it's just his karting helmet(though I think that is a different design to this...)

Twitter and Instagram profile pic.

Not only that, but in recent pictures at his karting facilities, he's been wearing his #29 Indy 500 cap and just yesterday he posted this:

Take from it what you will but I have a feeling an Andretti Autosport deal is coming out soon. Sato is moving to RLL so theres a comfy looking seat ready for Alonso.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Adding on to removing McLaren from his twitter, Alonso's picture is now a new racing helmet without any McLaren logos on it... Not sure if it's just his karting helmet(though I think that is a different design to this...)

Those are "his" colours, his two home flags combined.

Take from it what you will but I have a feeling an Andretti Autosport deal is coming out soon. Sato is moving to RLL so theres a comfy looking seat ready for Alonso.

I think it's more likely he could go to LMP (whatever's left of it) and do guest Indy for now.

 

[IforceV8]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131722/sainz-renault-deal-sets-up-mclaren-changes

 

[DesertPenguin09]

*strokes beard* Hmm.....

 

[Carbon_6]

 

[Milouse]

This RB-TorroRosso-McLaren-Renault-Sainz deal would fit to the cryptic interview that Prost gave to Canal + during the qualification rain interruption at Monza.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Seems to me like a set of deals that will make everyone happy, other than Jolyon Palmer obviously.

Though if I were in charge of an F1 team, no matter how much money Honda threw at me, can't say I'd want their engine in the back of my cars. No good watching them fight it out not to be last before they inevitably grenade themselves.

Saying that, Renault hasn't exactly been reliable so I can definitely see why TR would change supplier. I'd still rather go for someone who at least somewhat seems to have their *bleep* together.

 

[EngieDiesel]

Though if I were in charge of an F1 team, no matter how much money Honda threw at me, can't say I'd want their engine in the back of my cars. No good watching them fight it out not to be last before they inevitably grenade themselves.

Saying that, Renault hasn't exactly been reliable so I can definitely see why TR would change supplier. I'd still rather go for someone who at least somewhat seems to have their *bleep* together.

There aren't any other options though. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari is interested in supplying another team, and technically they aren't allowed to anyway because suppliers are only allowed to support three teams at a time unless the FIA gives special permission. And since we're not going to be seeing anyone new coming in until 2021 when the new regulations happen, this is really the only way to change things up at the moment.

That said, i can see the motivation behind this on both sides. McLaren wants engines that have a chance of surviving a full race, which Renault engines at least have the potential to do. Meanwhile Red Bull wants to have an alternate option when their contract with Renault runs out next year, ideally one that would take then closer to being a full works team. By having Honda working with their development team, RBR can closely monitor what's going on with their engines and give more direct input on their development. And Toro Rosso isn't expected to be competing for podiums every round, so putting Honda power in their cars is a low-risk move anyway.

 

[TenEightyOne]

suppliers are only allowed to support three teams at a time unless the FIA gives special permission

No, they have to supply up to three teams as ordered to by the FIA. They can supply more if they wish. In the case that a team has no engine supplier the FIA can force the supplier with the fewest number of customers to supply that team.

 

[EngieDiesel]

No, they have to supply up to three teams as ordered to by the FIA. They can supply more if they wish. In the case that a team has no engine supplier the FIA can force the supplier with the fewest number of customers to supply that team.

I'm 100% certain that BBC has posted articles about this that said something contrary to that, but their sport section is such a mess that it's impossible to find them. Half the F1 articles I pull up with Google have "football" in their URL instead of "formula1".

Maybe I just need to find a better source.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm 100% certain that BBC has posted articles about this that said something contrary to that, but their sport section is such a mess that it's impossible to find them. Half the F1 articles I pull up with Google have "football" in their URL instead of "formula1".

Maybe I just need to find a better source.

You're right in that more than three teams requires FIA permission (not that that would be a difficult call, I think)

A competitor may change the make of engine at any time during the Championship. All points scored with an engine of different make to that which was first entered in the Championship may count (and will be aggregated) for the assessment of a commercial benefit, however such points will not count towards (nor be aggregated for) the FIA Formula One Constructors Championship. A major car manufacturer may not directly or indirectly supply engines for more than three teams of two cars each without the consent of the FIA. For the purposes of this Article 8.3, a major car manufacturer is a company whose shares are quoted on a recognised stock exchange or the subsidiary of such a company.

The extra bits that I referred to are in Appendix 9-b-ii of the 2017 Tech Regs:

if called upon to do so by the FIA before 1 June (or such other date as agreed in writing between all the Power Unit Manufacturers and the FIA) of the season preceding that in which such power units were to be supplied, supply at least a number of teams (“T”) equal to the following equation : T = 111 -A/B-C - A = Total number of teams (including “works/factory” teams) having a supply agreement concluded for the given Championship season with a New Power Unit Manufacturer. - B = Total number of manufacturers of homologated Power Units for the given Championship season. - C = Total number of New Power Unit Manufacturers for the given Championship season. provided that if the result contains a fraction then the fraction shall count as a full team (e.g. 11 teams divided by 4 manufacturers = 2.75, each manufacturer must, if called upon to do so by the FIA, supply at least 3 teams).

 

[-Fred-]

Obvious money related reasons aside, is there another explanation as to why McLaren doesn't simply ask Ricardo to build their F1 engines alongside their roadgoing engines?

 

[mustafur]

Obvious money related reasons aside, is there another explanation as to why McLaren doesn't simply ask Ricardo to build their F1 engines alongside their roadgoing engines?

I Doubt a single manufacturer would be able to catch up to the rest of the engines in development before the end of the cycle, it would be better to just wait till the new engines are coming and start building a few years before they get put in the cars.

These engines are much more complicated then any of the previous N/A regs and they are expected to more reliable as well.