The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

[Danoff]

Why was Floyd so important but literally millions of others relatively not?

I'll pile on a little. There is something well known in legal circles, which is to select the most sympathetic plaintiff for your big litigation. So for example, lawyers might search for just the right constitutional law infringement (such as in an abortion case) in order to take something which is rampant, and affecting many people, to the supreme court. You pick the absolute best case that is the hardest to argue with. The same sort of thing is done for class action lawsuits. You don't take the most benign plaintiff in a class action to make your case, you pick the strongest because it is the clearest presentation of your side.

This is Floyd. He's not important because of who he is. His case is important because it is the hardest to argue with, he's the plaintiff that the movement settled on to bring their case before the nation.

 

[Rage Racer]

We've had this many times...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnicity-us/

View attachment 928992

Of course, as soon as one adjusts for proportionality people switch to the argument "but black people are more criminal".

[EDIT] Tree'd by @Scaff while I was busy trimming my screenshot

Wouldn't it be more relevant to compare rates of fatal police shootings per number of crimes committed (or arrests)?

Because according to the FBI data, African Americans get arrested more often than other ethinicities for certain offenses, such as murder (53.3%) or robbery (54.2%), although this ethnic group represents only 12.7% of the US population.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/table-43
See table 43A

 

[Scaff]

To be fair that’s what is written in the last sentence you quoted.

And yet you still ask the question knowing it's not comparable.

To the group I ask this.
With all the murders and deaths that happen everyday for unjust reasons why is it that Floyd’s death has led to worldwide chaos?
Was his life more valuable than a child getting killed in a drive by?
I think that’s the thing that confuses me most about this whole thing.
Why was Floyd so important but literally millions of others relatively not?
I think it’s an interesting moral question...
Where is the most logical place to direct ones pain and outrage?
My personal answer ISNT police that’s all.

As has been said a tipping point.

Should I post how many blacks kill blacks every day?

That depends on if you are going to cover the socio-economic factors that drive much of that crime, but I suspect you are not interested in that at all.

Or are we going to just say that someone killing someone is just wrong no matter what colour you are.

Who's said that's not the case?

Yeah all lives matter.

Ahh, you're one of those, I should have guessed.

We could sit here all day throwing out graphs charts etc.

You posted it, don't throw your toys around when the issue with it is pointed out.

To be blunt it came across as an attempt to claim that the issue with the disproportionate number of black deaths at the hands of the police wasn't actually real, that you ****ed up and ended up proving it to be the case is no-one else's fault.

You were quite happy to throw it out when you thought it worked in your favour.

The simple thing is people are dying in record numbers. We have blacks killing blacks in gunfights in Toronto. Missing a 3 year old and hitting a woman. Rapper killed. This 🤬 happens every freaking day people. It ain't white folks walking into their hood shooting it up.

See my response to the first part of your post.

Oh and mass-shootings in the US, who carries them out almost exclusively? You want examples of white people shooting up 'the hood' (do you not even understand how that makes you sound) I can give you plenty if you like, both historic and contemporary, across the world.

What you have missed however is that this sin;t about civilians and/or criminals doing this is about illegal deaths at the hands of the very people who are supported to protect us, people who are then almost always then exempt from the repercussions of the crime.

So stop attempting to muddy the waters, and stop being a rather clear and colossal racist.

 

[Scaff]

Wouldn't it be more relevant to compare rates of fatal police shootings per number of crimes committed (or arrests)?

Because according to the FBI data, African Americans get arrested more often than other ethinicities for certain offenses, such as murder (53.3%) or robbery (54.2%), although this ethnic group represents only 12.7% of the US population.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/table-43
See table 43A

Yep @UKMikey, it didn't take long for someone to do exactly what you said.

Of course, as soon as one adjusts for proportionality people switch to the argument "but black people are more criminal".

 

[UKMikey]

Yep @UKMikey, it didn;t take long for someone to do exactly what you said.

 

[killerjimbag]

And yet you still ask the question knowing it's not comparable.

I

As has been said a tipping point.


That depends on if you are going to cover the socio-economic factors that drive much of that crime, but I suspect you are not interested in that at all.


Who's said that's not the case?


Ahh, you're one of those, I should have guessed.


You posted it, don't throw your toys around when the issue with it is pointed out.

To be blunt it came across as an attempt to claim that the issue with the disproportionate number of black deaths at the hands of the police wasn't actually real, that you ****ed up and ended up proving it to be the case is no-one else's fault.

You were quite happy to throw it out when you thought it worked in your favour.


See my response to the first part of your post.

Oh and mass-shootings in the US, who carries them out almost exclusively? You want examples of white people shooting up 'the hood' (do you not even understand how that makes you sound) I can give you plenty if you like, both historic and contemporary, across the world.

What you have missed however is that this sin;t about civilians and/or criminals doing this is about illegal deaths at the hands of the very people who are supported to protect us, people who are then almost always then exempt from the repercussions of the crime.

So stop attempting to muddy the waters, and stop being a rather clear and colossal racist.

And yet you still ask the question knowing it's not comparable.



As has been said a tipping point.


That depends on if you are going to cover the socio-economic factors that drive much of that crime, but I suspect you are not interested in that at all.


Who's said that's not the case?


Ahh, you're one of those, I should have guessed.


You posted it, don't throw your toys around when the issue with it is pointed out.

To be blunt it came across as an attempt to claim that the issue with the disproportionate number of black deaths at the hands of the police wasn't actually real, that you ****ed up and ended up proving it to be the case is no-one else's fault.

You were quite happy to throw it out when you thought it worked in your favour.


See my response to the first part of your post.

Oh and mass-shootings in the US, who carries them out almost exclusively? You want examples of white people shooting up 'the hood' (do you not even understand how that makes you sound) I can give you plenty if you like, both historic and contemporary, across the world.

What you have missed however is that this sin;t about civilians and/or criminals doing this is about illegal deaths at the hands of the very people who are supported to protect us, people who are then almost always then exempt from the repercussions of the crime.

So stop attempting to muddy the waters, and stop being a rather clear and colossal racist.

Clearly you haven't been to any inner city in North America. Yes white people mass murder. Uhm Mugabe ring a bell? Needless to say I'm far from a racist. Realist yes racist absolutely not. Let me ask a question I asked my wife. If you had 3 children and your husband left. You were living in an impoverished area of Chicago what would you do. She said her first cheque she would pack up the kids and get on a bus and get the kids out of there.What would you do?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Uhm Mugabe ring a bell?

No, but I remember his brother. What a turd he was. Anyway...

Wouldn't it be more relevant to compare rates of fatal police shootings per number of crimes committed (or arrests)?

Because according to the FBI data, African Americans get arrested more often than other ethinicities for certain offenses, such as murder (53.3%) or robbery (54.2%), although this ethnic group represents only 12.7% of the US population.

Arrests are a crap metric because they tell you who was suspected of a crime, not who the perpetrators are - the arrest figures are pre habeus corpus. You could say that the police are more likely to suspect black people of crimes due to endemic racism, and that this is the reason for that skewed figure.

Obviously you can argue against that interpretation by looking at the incarceration rates for white/black criminals on like-for-like charges... but you'd be knackered then because a convicted black defendant is far more likely than a convicted white defendant (like for like, crime for crime, record for record) to be incarcerated. Interesting.

 

[Joey D]

Uhm Mugabe ring a bell?

Oh, we're going to talk about mass-murdering dictators? Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, King Leopold II, Josip Tito, Benito Mussolini, and Francisco Franco all killed far more people during their regime than Mugabe.

 

[Scaff]

Clearly you haven't been to any inner city in North America. Yes white people mass murder. Uhm Mugabe ring a bell? Needless to say I'm far from a racist. Realist yes racist absolutely not. Let me ask a question I asked my wife. If you had 3 children and your husband left. You were living in an impoverished area of Chicago what would you do. She said her first cheque she would pack up the kids and get on a bus and get the kids out of there.What would you do?

Absurd question, given that people living in an impoverished area of any place would simply not have the ability to just move in the manner you are suggesting. When you are in that kind of position, the mobility option you thrown out so easily simply does not exist.

 

[8l23ub]

Should I post how many blacks kill blacks every day? Or are we going to just say that someone killing someone is just wrong no matter what colour you are. Yeah all lives matter. We could sit here all day throwing out graphs charts etc. The simple thing is people are dying in record numbers. We have blacks killing blacks in gunfights in Toronto. Missing a 3 year old and hitting a woman. Rapper killed. This 🤬 happens every freaking day people. It ain't white folks walking into their hood shooting it up.

Maybe the blacks killing other blacks realize they are less likely to go to jail for killing Public enemy number 1
White police officers have shown the way..

 

[Groundfish]

This article is a good one.
Police interact millions upon millions of time per year with civilians and criminals in the USA.
Just as doctors heal tons of patients statistical probability pretty much says there’s bound to be cases of negligence or crime where people die. It’s just the nature of probability.
This article pretty much explains how I see this situation.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...h-toll-gun-control-officers-a8777046.html?amp

 

[TexRex]

Perhaps looking at this might put some perspective into the equation. Anybody notice who gets shot and killed more?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Should I post how many blacks kill blacks every day? Or are we going to just say that someone killing someone is just wrong no matter what colour you are. Yeah all lives matter. We could sit here all day throwing out graphs charts etc. The simple thing is people are dying in record numbers. We have blacks killing blacks in gunfights in Toronto. Missing a 3 year old and hitting a woman. Rapper killed. This 🤬 happens every freaking day people. It ain't white folks walking into their hood shooting it up.

Wouldn't it be more relevant to compare rates of fatal police shootings per number of crimes committed (or arrests)?

Because according to the FBI data, African Americans get arrested more often than other ethinicities for certain offenses, such as murder (53.3%) or robbery (54.2%), although this ethnic group represents only 12.7% of the US population.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/table-43
See table 43A

I find it absolutely fascinating how literally everyone who wishes to deflect and obfuscate completely misses the boat on peace officers killing people in a situation in which they can't reasonably be said to have been in imminent danger at the time of the killing. No, not "fascinating". What I meant to say there was "absolutely predictable and unbelievably ****ing stupid".

The absence of imminent danger makes it an abuse of power. Abuse of power is the issue.

The George Floyd situation happened really ****ing fast. George Floyd's unjust killing was filmed by a bystander and got the general public's attention quickly enough that the police officers on the scene were no longer police officers 24 hours after the incident occurred. There was simply no opportunity for a coverup.

The same can't be said for the Tony Timpa situation. The picture we have of that incident in Dallas in 2016 has been the result of years of investigative legwork and legal battles on behalf of the victim's family. Some of the information that has come into view had been hidden even as George Floyd took his last breath. It's likely that George Floyd's killing was a catalyst for the continued release of information as corrupt institutions are under increased scrutiny. The ****suckers simply can't cover **** up so easily now.

Like Floyd, Timpa was no angel. He'd been in and out of rehab for drug and alcohol addiction. He'd been arrested and convicted of DWI after having crashed his vehicle in 2013. He was schizophrenic.

Tony Timpa was the one who called 9-1-1 on the night he was unjustly killed by police.

 

[killerjimbag]

Absurd question, given that people living in an impoverished area of any place would simply not have the ability to just move in the manner you are suggesting. When you are in that kind of position, the mobility option you thrown out so easily simply does not exist.

Really so after being accused of being a racist, which entirely pisses me off as I have 3 black friends who I work with,1 whom I actually quoted about white guys shooting up the hood which doesn't happen.His words not mine because he lived in it and thats how they refer to it
Again his words not mine. But to explain things as he did. He moved from Barbados to Toronto as a child. Moved into low income housing. Crime was terrible. Nobody called the cops because the Black gang members who ran the complex would get revenge on the snitches. Again his words. His brother had his new shoes stolen. His dad called the cops. Guess what,his dad got shot 3 days later. Luckily he survived. No what happened next,they moved 100 kms to Guelph to get the children away from the hood. Again his words. So your point doesn't make sense.So to say that I'm a racist is sad as my best friend growing up was black from South Africa. His father was killed during apartheid. They moved to Canada. I loved his mother dearly. She was the kindest person in the world. I have numerous friends who are Sikh, Philippino,Vietnamese,Native American. I coached numerous children of ethic backgrounds for over 20 years. Like I said,you don't have a clue how the inner city is in North America. There are more gangs and better guns than the cops have. That is a fact. Like my friend Akim said. There ain't no BLM marches going on in the Jane and Finch area of Toronto. Just a ton of crime and gang violence.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

We have blacks killing blacks in gunfights in Toronto. Missing a 3 year old and hitting a woman. Rapper killed. This 🤬 happens every freaking day people. It ain't white folks walking into their hood shooting it up.

Yeah, the white folks just stick to schools.

I live literal blocks away from where the shooting happened. It was an awful event, but it was a targeted move, and it most certainly doesn't happen every day. We don't need fear mongering.

 

[Joey D]

I have 3 black friends who I work with

This is like the most common thing people like to trot out to prove they aren't racist and it's a pretty tired argument. But here's the thing, you can absolutely be racist and have black friends. It's called a microaggression and it's an actual thing in psychology.

 

[Scaff]

Really so after being accused of being a racist, which entirely pisses me off as I have 3 black friends who I work with,1 whom I actually quoted about white guys shooting up the hood which doesn't happen.His words not mine because he lived in it and thats how they refer to it
Again his words not mine. But to explain things as he did. He moved from Barbados to Toronto as a child. Moved into low income housing. Crime was terrible. Nobody called the cops because the Black gang members who ran the complex would get revenge on the snitches. Again his words. His brother had his new shoes stolen. His dad called the cops. Guess what,his dad got shot 3 days later. Luckily he survived. No what happened next,they moved 100 kms to Guelph to get the children away from the hood. Again his words. So your point doesn't make sense.So to say that I'm a racist is sad as my best friend growing up was black from South Africa. His father was killed during apartheid. They moved to Canada. I loved his mother dearly. She was the kindest person in the world. I have numerous friends who are Sikh, Philippino,Vietnamese,Native American. I coached numerous children of ethic backgrounds for over 20 years. Like I said,you don't have a clue how the inner city is in North America. There are more gangs and better guns than the cops have. That is a fact. Like my friend Akim said. There ain't no BLM marches going on in the Jane and Finch area of Toronto. Just a ton of crime and gang violence.

Ah the ‘I have black friends’ line, comes just after ‘I’m not racist but..’.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it’s not a ****ing horse.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Again his words not mine. But to explain things as he did. He moved from Barbados to Toronto as a child. Moved into low income housing. Crime was terrible. Nobody called the cops because the Black gang members who ran the complex would get revenge on the snitches. Again his words. His brother had his new shoes stolen. His dad called the cops. Guess what,his dad got shot 3 days later.

Pretty much everything you said would equate perfectly well to the back streets of parts of Glasgow or Belfast. You're describing low-income high-crime communities, that's all. That's not a black or white issue.

So to say that I'm a racist is sad as my best friend growing up was black from South Africa.

Oh. Okay. I guess that settles it then. <<< EDIT: Tree'd by @Scaff

 

[NotThePrez]

Really so after being accused of being a racist, which entirely pisses me off as I have 3 black friends who I work with...

As the guy who usually is the "black friend" in these scenarios, I absolutely despise this disclaimer. You having black friends does not mean you can't be a racist.

Like I said,you don't have a clue how the inner city is in North America.

So your/your friends specific experiences in a particular corner of (i'm assuming based on your location) Canada somehow speak for all inner cities across North America?

There are more gangs and better guns than the cops have. That is a fact.

Source to back up your alleged fact, please? Oh, and before you say it...

Like my friend Akim said.

...Secondary sources from "friends" are not good sources of objective information.

Also, have you ever stopped to think about why low-income neighborhood happen to usually be mostly, if not all black/other ethnic minorities?

 

[killerjimbag]

As the guy who usually is the "black friend" in these scenarios, I absolutely despise this disclaimer. You having black friends does not mean you can't be a racist.



So your/your friends specific experiences in a particular corner of (i'm assuming based on your location) Canada somehow speak for all inner cities across North America?



Source to back up your alleged fact, please? Oh, and before you say it...



...Secondary sources from "friends" are not good sources of objective information.

Also, have you ever stopped to think about why low-income neighborhood happen to usually be mostly, if not all black/other ethnic minorities?

Why don't you ask the last President and Chicago native why that is?

 

[killerjimbag]

Ah the ‘I have black friends’ line, comes just after ‘I’m not racist but..’.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it’s not a ****ing horse.

Right. I got ya. Jackass perhaps.

Yeah, the white folks just stick to schools.

I live literal blocks away from where the shooting happened. It was an awful event, but it was a targeted move, and it most certainly doesn't happen every day. We don't need fear mongering.

Uhm do you actually live in Toronto.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/t...il-for-slain-toronto-rapper-houdini-1.4977505
The first shooting happened literally a block from my daughters condo.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Uhm do you actually live in Toronto.

What part of "literal blocks away" was hard to understand, especially as you typed nearly the same thing in response?

 

[Scaff]

Right. I got ya. Jackass perhaps.

So just to be clear, you misrepresent facts to smear non-whites and when called out about claim that your not a racist because you have black friends and then throw around insults.

This guys Canadian, he had a black girlfriend, check out how much that stopped him being racist. Strange that people can be so complex and contradictory. Oh wait, no it’s actually not.

Solid debating skills. Have a guess how much value is placed on anecdotal evidence, now consider that secondhand anecdotal evidence is worth even less.

My point still stands and the fact that a black member just pointed out to you how much they hare the ‘black friends’ argument was quite literally ignored by you. That says quite a lot, and certainly doesn’t change my view.

 

[NotThePrez]

Why don't you ask the last President and Chicago native why that is?

I'm asking you. Nice deflection, though.

 

[Groundfish]

...Secondary sources from "friends" are not good sources of objective information

Tbh I believe first hand info from trusted real world friends far more than some random online activists rantings.
It is a very valid point that many have no idea what life’s really like in bad areas period.
My father grew up in such an area. He moved away.
Those bars on the windows are there for a reason.
The culture in these areas is sick. Jim might be angry and confrontational but it’s not like it isn’t like that.
To read many online it’s like they are in a theoretical world where in impoverished areas people are innocent and all good moral folks respecting each other.
Lol
My grandfathers house was a bit above the impoverished area.
Gunfire every single night. Reality.

 

[Scaff]

Tbh I believe first hand info from trusted real world friends far more than some random online activists rantings.
It is a very valid point that many have no idea what life’s really like in bad areas period.
My father grew up in such an area. He moved away.
Those bars on the windows are there for a reason.
The culture in these areas is sick. Jim might be angry and confrontational but it’s not like it isn’t like that.
To read many online it’s like they are in a theoretical world where in impoverished areas people are innocent and all good moral folks respecting each other.
Lol
My grandfathers house was a bit above the impoverished area.
Gunfire every single night. Reality.

So no one you know ever lies, exaggerates or embellishes?

I call foul on that.

Anecdotal evidence is utterly unreliable, particularly on the web, as it’s fundamentally impossible to check.

I could literally claim that a friend of mine says that he’s seen you kick puppies and kittens to death while reciting Mein Kampf with glee. Doesn’t make it true, that’s the value of anecdotal evidence on line.

 

[Famine]

You having black friends does not mean you can't be a racist.

Being black doesn't mean you can't be racist. I mean, Fresh Prince is 30 years old now, but come on:



Also see: everyone calling Terry Crews white right now, for suggesting black and white need to work together.

 

[TexRex]

Man, I forgot just how vapid and dim Hilary was.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Man, I forgot just how vapid and dim Hilary was.

Anybody else have to count the number of Ls in the penultimate word?

 

[TexRex]

Anybody else have to count the number of Ls in the penultimate word?

I had to pop on over to IMDB to be sure I had the correct spelling.

 

[Sage Ages]

Patients lives matter.

Should I post how many blacks kill blacks every day...

Way to be relevant to the problem at hand. Totally not deflecting at all.