The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

[TenEightyOne]

he should quit his trolling on twitter ... it's something else when someone does it on a gaming forum, but the president of the USA should be more presidential.

Definitely. At the moment I can hardly imagine how he might be less Presidential.

There is no need to invent excuses, that old guy was obviously asking for trouble,

To an extent I agree, he was looking for a confrontation with other members of the public. The problem is that those members of the public work for the police and seemed to think that they were therefore entitled to act much more extremely, but I guess that issue's at the heart of this thread and so many others.

only fools would do it in the USA where the Police is known to be trigger happy (again for obvious reasons).

See above

 

[Scaff]

You don't see the irony?

You are behaving exactly like those that decided to erect those statues in the first place:

"Sure he may have threatened the life of an unborn child and its mother thereby acting in a morally reprehensible and illegal way but he changed his life around and died in horrible circumstances - I see no issue with memorials to his legacy."

"Sure he may have partaken/made money off the backs of the slave trade thereby acting in a morally reprehensible yet legal way but he did great things for his city/country/etc - I see no issue with memorials to his legacy."

You're judging Floyd's crimes based on the lens of 2020 as people did to others in whatever year.

You are, however, also judging countless other men's crimes (and society's views on them) committed over a century ago by that same lens.

Please note that I was referring to the commission that is to review statues in London. Let's look at what Sadiq Khan said about its purview:



Sorry?

So someone whose policies are thought to have contributed to a famine that killed over 2 million people and was an unabashed imperialist is "safe" yet Thomas Guy could be in the firing line? Will we need to re-review all statues all over again in 2040 once we have more "enlightened" views on racists and their roles in government? The fact is people decided to erect those statues to celebrate people with complicated lives and we should use them as a talking point of the person rather than protest for their removal.

So you honestly believe that armed robbery (for which a person served the sentence mandated by law) is a direct equivalent to the selling of at least 90,000 people and the death of at least 19,000 people (and facing no recrimination for it at all)?

It's a false equivalence and if you can't see that then you are quite frankly supporting zero repercussions for those partaking in the slave trade.

Edited to add. Yes, we should judge them through the lens of 2020, and yes we should review them in the future and continue to do so, or are you one of these barking nutters who believe that taking a statue down suddenly re-writes history.

Edited once again to add: I see that you're engaging in quote mining once again. what was the reason you missed out this rather key piece of Khan's talking about Churchill and others?

“There’s a conversation to be had about the national curriculum properly teaches our children about people’s warts and all, and some of the things they’ve done we don’t approve of. But there are some statues that are quite clear cut – slavers, quite clear cut in my view.”

Well apart from the fact that it adds context that was missing and pts it in a quite different light. BTW, that's a rhetorical question, your dislike of Muslim's is well enough known.

 

[novcze]

The problem is that those members of the public work for the police and seemed to think that they were therefore entitled to act much more extremely, but I guess that issue's at the heart of this thread and so many others.

They are not just members of public, they are government officials when they are on the job and other members of public should comply with their orders or face consequences (which might be deadly if you encounter poorly trained policeman).

 

[Scaff]

They are not just members of public, they are government officials when they are on the job and other members of public should comply with their orders or face consequences (which might be deadly if you encounter poorly trained policeman).

Which one of the orders didn't George Flloyd comply with?

Which orders didn't Breonna Taylor follow (while she was asleep)?

Which orders didn't Tamir Rice follow(in the 2 seconds it took to be shot from the moment the police arrived when they had been told he was a child and the 'gun' was most likely a toy)?

 

[novcze]

Which one of the orders didn't George Flloyd comply with?

Which orders didn't Breonna Taylor follow (while she was asleep)?

Which orders didn't Tamir Rice follow(in the 2 seconds it took to be shot from the moment the police arrived when they had been told he was a child and the 'gun' was most likely a toy)?

Why you ask me, I wasn't there.

 

[Groundfish]

Patients lives matter.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

Doctors and nurses need more training.
Why no riots about wrongful death?
Why no looting?
Why no outrage?
Maybe defund the entire medical industry, why do they need all those needles and drugs?

 

[Joey D]

Patients lives matter.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

This is very well known and health systems are acutely aware of it. Most are also working to change it through technology, however, there are some health systems that drag their feet and refuse to get on board with an EMR. EMRs do reduce medical errors if they're used correctly.

And here's the thing, medical professionals that commit these errors are often punished, or at the very least sued. I'm not sure what it is at my current place, but at my previous employer, I'd get termination requests for physicians, nurses, MAs, etc. that stated the termination reason was due to negligence.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Why you ask me, I wasn't there.

Then why start something you can't finish?

 

[Scaff]

Why you ask me, I wasn't there.

You said " members of public should comply with their orders or face consequences "

All these people complied (or did not have the opportunity to comply) and are still dead, so given you made the claim, what did they do wrong? Or is the statement you made actually inaccurate?

Patients lives matter.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

Doctors and nurses need more training.
Why no riots about wrongful death?
Why no looting?
Why no outrage?
Maybe defund the entire medical industry, why do they need all those needles and drugs?

You seem to be unaware of the difference between deliberate acts and errors, as such, we have yet another false equivalence.

 

[Groundfish]

This is very well known and health systems are acutely aware of it. Most are also working to change it through technology, however, there are some health systems that drag their feet and refuse to get on board with an EMR. EMRs do reduce medical errors if they're used correctly.

And here's the thing, medical professionals that commit these errors are often punished, or at the very least sued. I'm not sure what it is at my current place, but at my previous employer, I'd get termination requests for physicians, nurses, MAs, etc. that stated the termination reason was due to negligence.

Medical negligence is ok? They are working on it so it’s ok? It’s ok?
But yet we burn down cities because of one or 2 murders?
Patients lives matter.
The medical professionals need better training.
The problem is systemic and according to the article third leading cause of death in USA.
It’s clearly systemic patientism.
There’s murder everyday.
I feel bad Floyd got murdered but black people get murdered everyday by other blacks and no one bats an eye.
Facts are whites get killed most by whites and blacks by blacks.
Third leading cause of death few bat an eye.
But, police officer murders criminal who was on meth who assaulted a pregnant woman previously and we burn down cities?
Really?
SMH

 

[DesertPenguin]

Medical negligence is ok? They are working on it so it’s ok? It’s ok?
But yet we burn down cities because of one or 2 murders?
Patients lives matter.
The medical professionals need better training.
The problem is systemic and according to the article third leading cause of death in USA.
It’s clearly systemic patientism.
There’s murder everyday.
I feel bad Floyd got murdered but black people get murdered everyday by other blacks and no one bats an eye.
Facts are whites get killed most by whites and blacks by blacks.
Third leading cause of death few bat an eye.
But, police officer murders criminal who was on meth who assaulted a pregnant woman previously and we burn down cities?
Really?
SMH

Are you serious or just playing with fire for fun? I ask because you've made some sensible comments in the past.

 

[Famine]

Medical negligence is ok?

Literally nobody has said that, and it isn't. But those who kill by mistake while trying to help in the medical field actually face consequences and it's something that the field is perpetually trying to address with better training.

But yet we burn down cities because of one or 2 murders?

Murder by cop is not equivalent to accidental death by doc - and the police unions ensure that the cops don't face consequences, or address the issue with better training.

It is entirely appropriate to be cross about both things, but one is a systemic profiling, prejudice, quota-led, armed, intent to escalate, violent ending of life in which the perpetrators are protected, and the other is exhausted medical professionals making the wrong call while trying to save (or prolong) lives, in which the perpetrators are excoriated.

 

[Groundfish]

Are you serious or just playing with fire for fun?

All I will say is @Scaff is on a very slippery slope if it’s ok for medical negligence to kill thousands because unintentional and burning cities is ok because intentional.
What if Chaivins lawyers say it was unintentional?
If I’m speeding in my car not paying attention and I run over and kill a pedestrian does that make them less dead?
I mean I’m horrified at Floyd’s murder but death is death.

 

[DesertPenguin]

*slowly takes a step back*

 

[novcze]

You said " members of public should comply with their orders or face consequences "

All these people complied (or did not have the opportunity to comply) and are still dead, so given you made the claim, what did they do wrong? Or is the statement you made actually inaccurate?

I think I mentioned possibility of encounter with poorly trained policemen ...

 

[Scaff]

All I will say is @Scaff is on a very slippery slope

The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy.

if it’s ok for medical negligence to kill thousands because unintentional and burning cities is ok because intentional.

Didn't say that at all, so I would appreciate you not lying.

What if Chaivins lawyers say it was unintentional?

Then the prosecution will not have a hard job showing that to be untrue.

If I’m speeding in my car not paying attention and I run over and kill a pedestrian does that make them less dead?

You are aware of the informed consent that people sign before a medical procedure takes place, I don't think you will find that hit and run victims get that option. So once again, false equivalence.

I mean I’m horrified at Floyd’s murder but death is death.

Not horrified to lie about the circumstances and attempt to blame him for his own fate.

I think I mentioned possibility of encounter with poorly trained policemen ...

You did, in regard to people not following orders, so my question still stands.

 

[DesertPenguin]

*slowly takes a step back*

I'm just grateful there are so many other people here that are able to articulate their thoughts so eloquently. If I tried it would end very poorly.

 

[TenEightyOne]

What if Chaivins lawyers say it was unintentional?

Then he's worth every cent! Until, that is, somebody points out that his client should have realised that kneeling on the neck of a man saying "I can't breathe" was a Bad Thing.

If I’m speeding in my car not paying attention and I run over and kill a pedestrian does that make them less dead?

You knew the parameters in which you should drive and you chose to drive without concentrating - and that is a choice. The pedestrian is no less dead (although I are not doktr) and you are no less guilty of their death by dangerous driving. Even if you couldn't tell your driving was dangerous that still demonstrates that you're dangerous.

I mean I’m horrified at Floyd’s murder but death is death.

Yeah, I remember my grandma dying and realising just how close that brought me to Rodney King's family. Your comparison is utterly absurd for all the reasons that @Famine just explained to you very patiently.

 

[Joey D]

Medical negligence is ok? They are working on it so it’s ok? It’s ok?
But yet we burn down cities because of one or 2 murders?
Patients lives matter.
The medical professionals need better training.
The problem is systemic and according to the article third leading cause of death in USA.
It’s clearly systemic patientism.
There’s murder everyday.
I feel bad Floyd got murdered but black people get murdered everyday by other blacks and no one bats an eye.
Facts are whites get killed most by whites and blacks by blacks.
Third leading cause of death few bat an eye.
But, police officer murders criminal who was on meth who assaulted a pregnant woman previously and we burn down cities?
Really?
SMH

I didn't say it's OK, I said there are consequences when someone is found to have committed a medical error. Even if the person isn't fired from their health system, the system is typically sued. That's why malpractice insurance for a provider is incredibly expensive.

I'm also very skeptical that it's the third leading cause of death in the US. The study that the article references has some issues with it. Here's an excerpt from it:

In their study, the researchers examined four separate studies that analyzed medical death rate data from 2000 to 2008, including one by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services’ Office of the Inspector General and the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. Then, using hospital admission rates from 2013, they extrapolated that based on a total of 35,416,020 hospitalizations, 251,454 deaths stemmed from a medical error, which the researchers say now translates to 9.5 percent of all deaths each year in the U.S.

A couple of things. First ICD-10 wasn't introduced in the US until 2015, which greatly expanded how everything medical is coded. This drastically changed how information is collected and before that when we were using ICD-9, many things fell through the cracks. ICD-10 was published in 1990, but thanks to politicians the US drug its feet on it despite the medical community wanting it.

Second, between 2000-2008, EMRs weren't commonplace in the US. In 2008, only around half of US health systems had an EMR and of that 50% only about 5% had fully functioning ones. Thanks to Meaningful Use, which was apart of the Affordable Care Act, the adoption of EMRs sharply rose after 2009 and we're now somewhere between 90-95% adoption. EMRs greatly reduce errors since there are checks built into the system that warns of medication interactions, allergies, and thousands of other things. They also allow reporting on everything and errors are something that's looked at pretty much daily. When errors are identified, they're almost always immediately addressed in a well-functioning health system.

Third, the three leading causes of death in the US are as follows: 1.) Cardiovascular disease, 2.) Cancer, and 3.) Unintentional Death. Unintentional deaths can include medical errors, but they also include things like traffic accidents, falling off your roof, getting sucked into a jet engine, being squished by an orca, etc.

 

[Groundfish]

I’m simply pointing out medical negligence is wrong.
Murder is wrong. The vast majority of both doctors and policemen are good.
Some are not. But numbers wise, innocent deaths wise medical negligence causes far more deaths than bad police intentionally killing people.
So by the numbers, if we value human life it seems to make sense there ought to be more outrage, more focus on the biggest problem facing the society as a whole.
I also don’t buy the argument medical professionals are trying to help and police are not.
If a woman calls 911 because she’s being beaten or worse the police respond, to try to help. Sometimes they have to use force, sometimes as the officer pointed out above criminals have weapons.
No, medical negligence is not the same as murder but the result of it is the same.
The result is lives lost.
Also 2 wrongs don’t make a right. There’s no excuse for destroying innocent people’s businesses because ‘mad’.
Also, I think it’s really bad to look at a minority of police which are bad and ascribe those tendencies to all police.
Isn’t that the same concept the Nazis used ie all ‘certain type’ humans are bad?
I doubt medical negligence will ever be eliminated totally just as equally I doubt police doing crime will be eliminated totally. That’s just how life is it’s not a perfect world.
I think it’s great to draw attention to injustice and work on it but injustice for injustice isn’t anything but revenge.
I’d like to have seen more supporters of the blm movement to have condemned the violence and destructive events but I’ve seen several that have been like well if that’s how it’s gotta be or well insurance will pay, I have even heard people involved trying to redefine the term violence to not include property destruction. You can absolutely destroy something in a violent fashion.
Anyways no negligence is not equivalent to murder, it’s just no less deadly.

 

[novcze]

You did, in regard to people not following orders, so my question still stands.

Exactly and when someone encounter agitated extremely poorly trained policemen it can be deadly even if someone allegedly follow orders. So yeah in rare cases my general statement can be inacurate.

 

[killerjimbag]

Perhaps looking at this might put some perspective into the equation. Anybody notice who gets shot and killed more?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

 

[Scaff]

I’m simply pointing out medical negligence is wrong.
Murder is wrong. The vast majority of both doctors and policemen are good.
Some are not. But numbers wise, innocent deaths wise medical negligence causes far more deaths than bad police intentionally killing people.
So by the numbers, if we value human life it seems to make sense there ought to be more outrage, more focus on the biggest problem facing the society as a whole.
I also don’t buy the argument medical professionals are trying to help and police are not.
If a woman calls 911 because she’s being beaten or worse the police respond, to try to help. Sometimes they have to use force, sometimes as the officer pointed out above criminals have weapons.
No, medical negligence is not the same as murder but the result of it is the same.
The result is lives lost.
Also 2 wrongs don’t make a right. There’s no excuse for destroying innocent people’s businesses because ‘mad’.
Also, I think it’s really bad to look at a minority of police which are bad and ascribe those tendencies to all police.
Isn’t that the same concept the Nazis used ie all ‘certain type’ humans are bad?
I doubt medical negligence will ever be eliminated totally just as equally I doubt police doing crime will be eliminated totally. That’s just how life is it’s not a perfect world.
I think it’s great to draw attention to injustice and work on it but injustice for injustice isn’t anything but revenge.
I’d like to have seen more supporters of the blm movement to have condemned the violence and destructive events but I’ve seen several that have been like well if that’s how it’s gotta be or well insurance will pay, I have even heard people involved trying to redefine the term violence to not include property destruction. You can absolutely destroy something in a violent fashion.
Anyways no negligence is not equivalent to murder, it’s just no less deadly.

None of which addresses the problem with your comparison, which is that the two are NOT comparable.

One is deliberate and the other is not.

If you can cite a case in which medical professionals are deliberately targeting a specific group or people and purposely killing them, then you have a valid comparison. Even then you would still need to demonstrate it is a countrywide trend. Until you can do so your comparison doesn't stand up at all.

Perhaps looking at this might put some perspective into the equation. Anybody notice who gets shot and killed more?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Now correct that for population percentage, notice what happens?

73% of the US are white, 12.7% are black. Statistically white people should be the largest group of those shot and killed. On an even distribution for every 100, 73 should be white and 14 should be black a rough 7:1 ratio. The reality is that its a 2:1 ratio.

So congratulations, you've just proven that black Americans are statistically far more likely to die at the hands of the police than white Americans, more than 3 times more likely.

 

[UKMikey]

Perhaps looking at this might put some perspective into the equation. Anybody notice who gets shot and killed more?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

We've had this many times...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnicity-us/

Of course, as soon as one adjusts for proportionality people switch to the argument "but black people are more criminal".

[EDIT] Tree'd by @Scaff while I was busy trimming my screenshot

 

[killerjimbag]

We've had this many times...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnicity-us/

View attachment 928992

Of course, as soon as one adjusts for proportionality people switch to the argument "but black people are more criminal".

[EDIT] Tree'd by @Scaff while I was busy trimming my screenshot

Should I post how many blacks kill blacks every day? Or are we going to just say that someone killing someone is just wrong no matter what colour you are. Yeah all lives matter. We could sit here all day throwing out graphs charts etc. The simple thing is people are dying in record numbers. We have blacks killing blacks in gunfights in Toronto. Missing a 3 year old and hitting a woman. Rapper killed. This 🤬 happens every freaking day people. It ain't white folks walking into their hood shooting it up.

 

[Groundfish]

None of which addresses the problem with your comparison, which is that the two are NOT comparable

To be fair that’s what is written in the last sentence you quoted.

To the group I ask this.
With all the murders and deaths that happen everyday for unjust reasons why is it that Floyd’s death has led to worldwide chaos?
Was his life more valuable than a child getting killed in a drive by?
I think that’s the thing that confuses me most about this whole thing.
Why was Floyd so important but literally millions of others relatively not?
I think it’s an interesting moral question...
Where is the most logical place to direct ones pain and outrage?
My personal answer ISNT police that’s all.

Carry on.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Should I post how many blacks kill blacks every day? Or are we going to just say that someone killing someone is just wrong no matter what colour you are. Yeah all lives matter. We could sit here all day throwing out graphs charts etc. The simple thing is people are dying in record numbers. We have blacks killing blacks in gunfights in Toronto. Missing a 3 year old and hitting a woman. Rapper killed. This 🤬 happens every freaking day people. It ain't white folks walking into their hood shooting it up.

Why are you always so angry? Do you ever take it down from 11?

I think that’s the thing that confuses me most about this whole thing.

It's called The Tipping Point.

 

[DesertPenguin]

delete

 

[Joey D]

It ain't white folks walking into their hood shooting it up.

This literally happened in Canada:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/nova-scotia-shooting-rcmp?video_autoplay=true

To be fair that’s what is written in the last sentence you quoted.

To the group I ask this.
With all the murders and deaths that happen everyday for unjust reasons why is it that Floyd’s death has led to worldwide chaos?
Was his life more valuable than a child getting killed in a drive by?
I think that’s the thing that confuses me most about this whole thing.
Why was Floyd so important but literally millions of others relatively not?
I think it’s an interesting moral question...
Where is the most logical place to direct ones pain and outrage?
My personal answer ISNT police that’s all.

Carry on.

Because people are sick of the police abusing their power and hiding behind their badge, fellow officers, and unions when they do something wrong and/or illegal. Floyd's murder was just the springboard behind it because it was so blatant.

 

[Famine]

I also don’t buy the argument medical professionals are trying to help and police are not.
If a woman calls 911 because she’s being beaten or worse the police respond, to try to help. Sometimes they have to use force, sometimes as the officer pointed out above criminals have weapons.

Medical professionals only go to a scene (or a patient) in order to help them with their medical issues. Police go to a scene when someone is violating the law, in order to enforce the law by stopping someone from violating the law, with force.

Surprisingly few surgeons go to an OR armed and ready to neutralise threats with firepower.

Why was Floyd so important but literally millions of others relatively not?

He was recorded being hanged to death on the floor while in handcuffs begging for his life for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, with multiple onlookers imploring the cop who killed him to stop killing him.

And literally nothing happened until the videos were widely circulated in public. 24 hours after the killing, the four cops were fired, and the cop who actually killed him wasn't arrested for another three days after that.

Floyd himself, as an individual, wasn't important. He's merely the proverbial straw: one roadside execution and apparent invulnerability for his executioner too many.

Also 2 wrongs don’t make a right. There’s no excuse for destroying innocent people’s businesses because ‘mad’.

That has precious little to do with the actual protests, and a lot to do with idiots who will latch onto anything as an excuse for violence and shoplifting.