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The 3 Greatest F1 Drivers Of All Time?
- Thread starter TenEightyOne
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- 5,551
- Controls set for heart of sun
- GTP_RogerTheHors
"If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle" is a statement roughly equivalent to "if I put black shoe polish on my face I'd be a black person." If your auntie suddenly grew balls overnight for some unexplained supernatural reason she'd still be your auntie, just with added balls*, if I put black shoe polish on my face I'd still be white, I'd just be a white person in a racist state of dress.
*And if in a parallel universe the child conceived had a Y-chromosome rather than an X-chromosome they'd be a completely different person, who still wouldn't necessarily be your uncle rather than your aunt, although they most likely would be.
*And if in a parallel universe the child conceived had a Y-chromosome rather than an X-chromosome they'd be a completely different person, who still wouldn't necessarily be your uncle rather than your aunt, although they most likely would be.
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- 29,509
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
You've grossly overthought TenEighty's point.
- 1,034
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- noshog
This is a really tough one...So many deserving names, virtually impossible to pick just three.
I ended up voting based on my heart rather than my mind...Hulme, Brabham, Lauda.
If I had voted with my mind instead of heart it could've been more like...Schumacher, Senna...Hmm even Surtees deserves a vote, still the only man to win both cars and bikes championships.
I ended up voting based on my heart rather than my mind...Hulme, Brabham, Lauda.
If I had voted with my mind instead of heart it could've been more like...Schumacher, Senna...Hmm even Surtees deserves a vote, still the only man to win both cars and bikes championships.
- 12,512
- Ireland
- The__Luke
Schumacher- Quite simply the best driver in any discipline in my opinion, leading 2 teams to multiple world championships is impressive.
Prost- One of my favourite drivers, and 4 world championships.
Alonso- In my opinion, by far and away the best driver on the grid for 6 or 7 years now and really could be a 5-time world champion. His 2012 season was simply incredible that he was in with a shot.
Prost- One of my favourite drivers, and 4 world championships.
Alonso- In my opinion, by far and away the best driver on the grid for 6 or 7 years now and really could be a 5-time world champion. His 2012 season was simply incredible that he was in with a shot.
- 9,401
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- mustafur
I think Senna, Prost and Piquet have the ability to all be beaten by each other.
Senna was very much an Emotional driver but easily the most naturally gifted, his biggest weakness though is said emotional state, he also doesn't have the ability to think too much whilst driving which is another huge weekness.
Prost was very calculating but didn't have significant natural Talent(atleast at Senna or Mansell level) but was extremely hardworking and probably the most intelligent driver of the era, no one could match his ability to think in his feet and what it took to win, very overall rounded like a Schumacher style driver.
Piquet on the otherhand was all about phsycology his biggest strength was getting into his opponent's head and pushing them over the top he won't stop at anything to insure his opponent would have a damaged mental state, it worked especially well against Mansell and allowed him to beat who was arguably a more talented driver.
Piquet doesn't get mentioned in the same sentence as Senna and Prost because he was a bit past his prime when they where at the height of their powers but in the early to mid 80's he was easily at the same level imo.
Senna was very much an Emotional driver but easily the most naturally gifted, his biggest weakness though is said emotional state, he also doesn't have the ability to think too much whilst driving which is another huge weekness.
Prost was very calculating but didn't have significant natural Talent(atleast at Senna or Mansell level) but was extremely hardworking and probably the most intelligent driver of the era, no one could match his ability to think in his feet and what it took to win, very overall rounded like a Schumacher style driver.
Piquet on the otherhand was all about phsycology his biggest strength was getting into his opponent's head and pushing them over the top he won't stop at anything to insure his opponent would have a damaged mental state, it worked especially well against Mansell and allowed him to beat who was arguably a more talented driver.
Piquet doesn't get mentioned in the same sentence as Senna and Prost because he was a bit past his prime when they where at the height of their powers but in the early to mid 80's he was easily at the same level imo.
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Building up? Mansell had already had his great duel with Piquet (and arguably his best season in 1986) and was already 37 years old.
Prost outqualified Lauda 28-2 (!) in their time together and outscored him 147.5-86. In 1984, Lauda only finished ahead of Prost when Prost had trouble (a puncture in South Africa, wheel issue in France and a sick engine in Canada). Lauda was outclassed by Prost and had to rely on Prost's misfortune to win the title.
2-1? They were only paired together for two seasons and Prost outscored Senna in both.
You're really pushing it trying to discredit Prost.
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I stand corrected on the 2-1 (Senna-Prost), somehow I always class 1990 as a battle between them, but of course they were no longer in the same team.
As for Mansell, I do feel his maturity and "completeness" as a driver came late in his career,, that's why I said what I said.
As for Lauda, I don't care for "what ifs" and I'm certainly not impressed by qualifying figures. Also, it is obvious that 1984 Prost was faster then 1984 Lauda. It is obvious now and it was obvious then. However, the fact stands, the 1984 champion was Niki Lauda. ANd I don't recall anyone, not even Prost, saying that outcome was unfair.
About me trying to discredit Prost, you've got it all wrong. I stated in that same post that PROST is for me one of the all time greats in Formula 1. In fact I stated that also in my 7 drivers short list (page 1 post). What I was saying is that numbers and stats are easy to come by but reality is always more complex.
And I'll rest my case with your own way of mentioning the outcome of Lauda vs. Prost. You transformed
1-1
into
28-2,
and
147.5 - 86
Does this tell us really anything about how they compare? Hardly, and to compare them is and will always be easy, but to say who was best is and will always be debatable. Prost won double the GPs Lauda won (51-25), Prost won one more WDC (4-3), entered about 25 more GPs (202-177), achieved few more pole positins in his career (33-24), and considerably more fastest laps (41-24).
Based on numbers alone, Prost should be rated higher than Lauda. And of course Schumacher should be higher than both by ... a lot.
However, my subjective and debatable opinion, looking at these three drivers and their careers as F1 drivers, makes me not pick any of them to my own top three. And if I had to order them according to their greatness as Formula 1 drivers, I'd rate them in the exact opposite way their stats imply: I'd place them like this:
1. Niki Lauda
2. Alain Prost
3. Michael Schumacher
As for Mansell, I do feel his maturity and "completeness" as a driver came late in his career,, that's why I said what I said.
As for Lauda, I don't care for "what ifs" and I'm certainly not impressed by qualifying figures. Also, it is obvious that 1984 Prost was faster then 1984 Lauda. It is obvious now and it was obvious then. However, the fact stands, the 1984 champion was Niki Lauda. ANd I don't recall anyone, not even Prost, saying that outcome was unfair.
About me trying to discredit Prost, you've got it all wrong. I stated in that same post that PROST is for me one of the all time greats in Formula 1. In fact I stated that also in my 7 drivers short list (page 1 post). What I was saying is that numbers and stats are easy to come by but reality is always more complex.
And I'll rest my case with your own way of mentioning the outcome of Lauda vs. Prost. You transformed
1-1
into
28-2,
and
147.5 - 86
Does this tell us really anything about how they compare? Hardly, and to compare them is and will always be easy, but to say who was best is and will always be debatable. Prost won double the GPs Lauda won (51-25), Prost won one more WDC (4-3), entered about 25 more GPs (202-177), achieved few more pole positins in his career (33-24), and considerably more fastest laps (41-24).
Based on numbers alone, Prost should be rated higher than Lauda. And of course Schumacher should be higher than both by ... a lot.
However, my subjective and debatable opinion, looking at these three drivers and their careers as F1 drivers, makes me not pick any of them to my own top three. And if I had to order them according to their greatness as Formula 1 drivers, I'd rate them in the exact opposite way their stats imply: I'd place them like this:
1. Niki Lauda
2. Alain Prost
3. Michael Schumacher
- 3,144
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- Ryk_BRM
Graham Hill -
Cool 'tache - Check
Cool Helmet - check
So good even your kid is World Champion - Check
Win Indy 500 - Check
Win Monaco - Check (Mr Monaco)
Win LeMans - Check
Jack Brabham -
Win a championship in a car you built yourself.
(Ross Brawn - This could be your name too!)
Nelson Piquet
"Hello Mum" - http://www.farzadsf1gallery.com/image_upload/piquet_hello_mum.jpg
Battled back after a terrible crash at Tamburello to take the championship for Williams.
Willie Nelson...
Cool 'tache - Check
Cool Helmet - check
So good even your kid is World Champion - Check
Win Indy 500 - Check
Win Monaco - Check (Mr Monaco)
Win LeMans - Check
Jack Brabham -
Win a championship in a car you built yourself.
(Ross Brawn - This could be your name too!)
Nelson Piquet
"Hello Mum" - http://www.farzadsf1gallery.com/image_upload/piquet_hello_mum.jpg
Battled back after a terrible crash at Tamburello to take the championship for Williams.
Willie Nelson...
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
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- CR80_Shifty
*This post updates post #29 to include the Schumacher era and the current era.
F1 Wins by Driver's Era of Generally Accepted Dominance
Fangio Era, '50 - '57
Fangio - 24
Ascari - 13
Moss - 5
Moss Era, '58 - '61
Moss - 10
Brabham - 7
Brooks - 5
Clark Era, '62 - '67
Clark - 24
G Hill - 10
Brabham - 6
Stewart Era, '68 - '73
Stewart - 24
Fittipaldi - 9
Ickx - 8
Lauda Era, '74 - '78
Lauda - 17
Andretti - 11
Hunt - 10
Interregnum year, '79
Jones - 4
Villeneuve - 3
Scheckter - 3
Long Era of Prost, Senna, Mansell and Piquet, '80 - '93
Prost - 51
Senna - 41
Mansell - 31
Piquet - 23
Schumacher Era, '94 - '04
Schumacher - 81
Hakkinen - 20
D Hill - 19
Current Era, '05 - '15 (thru Monaco)
Vettel - 40
Hamilton - 36
Alonso - 31
Raikkonen - 18
Button - 14
Massa - 11
Rosberg - 10
F1 Wins by Driver's Era of Generally Accepted Dominance
Fangio Era, '50 - '57
Fangio - 24
Ascari - 13
Moss - 5
Moss Era, '58 - '61
Moss - 10
Brabham - 7
Brooks - 5
Clark Era, '62 - '67
Clark - 24
G Hill - 10
Brabham - 6
Stewart Era, '68 - '73
Stewart - 24
Fittipaldi - 9
Ickx - 8
Lauda Era, '74 - '78
Lauda - 17
Andretti - 11
Hunt - 10
Interregnum year, '79
Jones - 4
Villeneuve - 3
Scheckter - 3
Long Era of Prost, Senna, Mansell and Piquet, '80 - '93
Prost - 51
Senna - 41
Mansell - 31
Piquet - 23
Schumacher Era, '94 - '04
Schumacher - 81
Hakkinen - 20
D Hill - 19
Current Era, '05 - '15 (thru Monaco)
Vettel - 40
Hamilton - 36
Alonso - 31
Raikkonen - 18
Button - 14
Massa - 11
Rosberg - 10
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Dotini
(Banned)
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- CR80_Shifty
It will be seen from a quick examination of the table above that Clark, Stewart and Schumacher were the only drivers to have clearly dominated their direct competition by over a two-to-one ratio. It would be tempting just to pick these three drivers as the greatest F1 drivers and have done with it. But I hold a special place for Jackie Stewart at the top, and I'll tell you why.
Back in about 1982 I made a determined study to find the mortality rate of GP drivers from 1950 to 1982, and discovered that fully one third of all drivers who participated in a GP during that period died behind the wheel of a racing vehicle.
During his lifetime, Stewart made many enemies amongst the establishment press, circuit owners , some of the drivers and others with his ceaseless campaigning - some would say harping - over safety issues.
Stewart put his shoulder and his mouth to the wheel over every aspect of safety improvements to helmets, uniforms, cars, circuits and medical availability.
I remember a famous accident at Spa where Stewart slid off in the rain and was trapped in his BRM with gasoline filling up the inside of the tub. No one was there to help him. His team mate. the redoubtable Graham Hill, stopped his own BRM and rendered assistance, even borrowing tools from a nearby farmer to disassemble the steering wheel so Stewart could be pulled from the stricken wreck.
Thanks mainly to the tireless efforts of Stewart, F1 racing was gradually transformed from a gladiatorial combat where 33% could expect to die before retirement to the relatively safe and sane sport and business we see today.
Due to his intelligence, humanity and vision far in excess of that required merely for driving, Jackie Stewart rose above the others and became the greatest and most significant of F1 drivers.
Back in about 1982 I made a determined study to find the mortality rate of GP drivers from 1950 to 1982, and discovered that fully one third of all drivers who participated in a GP during that period died behind the wheel of a racing vehicle.
During his lifetime, Stewart made many enemies amongst the establishment press, circuit owners , some of the drivers and others with his ceaseless campaigning - some would say harping - over safety issues.
Stewart put his shoulder and his mouth to the wheel over every aspect of safety improvements to helmets, uniforms, cars, circuits and medical availability.
I remember a famous accident at Spa where Stewart slid off in the rain and was trapped in his BRM with gasoline filling up the inside of the tub. No one was there to help him. His team mate. the redoubtable Graham Hill, stopped his own BRM and rendered assistance, even borrowing tools from a nearby farmer to disassemble the steering wheel so Stewart could be pulled from the stricken wreck.
Thanks mainly to the tireless efforts of Stewart, F1 racing was gradually transformed from a gladiatorial combat where 33% could expect to die before retirement to the relatively safe and sane sport and business we see today.
Due to his intelligence, humanity and vision far in excess of that required merely for driving, Jackie Stewart rose above the others and became the greatest and most significant of F1 drivers.
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- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Further to that story... I remember hearing Jackie Stewart completing that story and explaining that his overalls were sodden with fuel that was slowly burning his skin. Graham Hill laid him on a farmer's cart and began stripping the overalls from him. At that moment two nuns walked past, looked at the rakish Hill struggling with the dazed Stewart's overalls, and hurried on. Jackie Stewart recalls that despite the severity of the moment Hill's raffish grin to the nuns would always stay with him.
The other outcome-of-note is that from that moment Stewart always had a spanner fastened into the cockpit that would enable him to release the wheel if the need ever arose.
- 4,487
- YorkshireLand
- SVTlover
I've gone for Senna, G Villeneuve and Fangio.
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- Philippines
Tempting to pick Senna just for his keen instincts behind the wheel (regardless of whether he was a better all-arounder than Prost... and being a Prost fan back in the day, I'd say not)... still... I voted Senna. C'est la vie.
And Fangio.
And Alonso.
I do believe Alonso is one of those all-around talents who's just been very unlucky in where he went after leaving Renault. He's pulled off some amazing seasons from less-than-perfect machinery (oh hell... let's be honest... the machinery was complete crap) and has always been great to watch.
Still... lot of talent up there not getting votes, but still deserving. Kimi, for one, was once rated in the Top Three by F1 in an F1 Magazine run-down of "best" drivers, but the shine has probably worn off now that he's had a few extra seasons in less-than-impressive machinery and form.
And Fangio.
And Alonso.
I do believe Alonso is one of those all-around talents who's just been very unlucky in where he went after leaving Renault. He's pulled off some amazing seasons from less-than-perfect machinery (oh hell... let's be honest... the machinery was complete crap) and has always been great to watch.
Still... lot of talent up there not getting votes, but still deserving. Kimi, for one, was once rated in the Top Three by F1 in an F1 Magazine run-down of "best" drivers, but the shine has probably worn off now that he's had a few extra seasons in less-than-impressive machinery and form.
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- marco89IT
I was about to post this in the "Classic motorsport photos" thread. Monza 1969, Stewart's Matra.
Instructions also in Italian for marshals.
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In order, Senna, Schumacher, and Pastor Maldonado. Just kidding. Prost is my third.
To me, Fangio is overrated. Jim Clark is amazing. There's a lot of incredible drivers among incredible drivers but Senna, is head and shoulders better than the rest. There's no question about that. Even Schumacher who is a personal favorite of mine, there's just no denying that Senna is the best.
To me, Fangio is overrated. Jim Clark is amazing. There's a lot of incredible drivers among incredible drivers but Senna, is head and shoulders better than the rest. There's no question about that. Even Schumacher who is a personal favorite of mine, there's just no denying that Senna is the best.
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Villeneuve was spectacular but not really any statistics support him being one of the greatest drivers of all time.
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- 3,144
- Lancashire
- Ryk_BRM
Great drivers are much more than statistics.
Tyre-some Example.
Nick O'Rosberg won the Monaco GP in 2015 - therefore Best driver in the world on that day...
But you may argue that Lewis Hamilton was better over the weekend despite only just managing to scrap the final podium place in the same car as the Finno-Germa-Monegasque driver who, on the face of the statistics, dominated the 1st place step on that podium. (Princess Charlene... really...)
When people look back from the future - they will see O'Rosberg wins... and not see the whole picture. e.g.
Button pedals the McHonda to a points finish when his statistically superior team mate Double World Champion and "Best of the era" (Alonso) can only just manage to out distance Crashtor (Maldonado...)
----
Senna da Silva to me will always be the guy who crashed on purpose to win, or force an opponent out of the race. That is never the mark of a great.
Schumacher unfortunately had the same problem - he was a dirty driver when things got tough.
And how can you race with a driver who will shunt you if things get too hard for them and they get desperate?
Hard to judge older drivers due to the lack of footage too observe. Modern drivers make a mistake and it is under a microscope and dissected by a phalanx of former racers.
So what makes up your personal "great driver" cake?
Raw Speed
Mechanical expert - (Not Cole Trickle from Days of Thunder!)
Consistency
Mechanical Sympathy
Sublime Car control (Wet and changeable grip conditions)
Race Craft
Team Player
... Dick Dastardly 'tache
... monosyllabic post race interview style
Tyre-some Example.
Nick O'Rosberg won the Monaco GP in 2015 - therefore Best driver in the world on that day...
But you may argue that Lewis Hamilton was better over the weekend despite only just managing to scrap the final podium place in the same car as the Finno-Germa-Monegasque driver who, on the face of the statistics, dominated the 1st place step on that podium. (Princess Charlene... really...)
When people look back from the future - they will see O'Rosberg wins... and not see the whole picture. e.g.
Button pedals the McHonda to a points finish when his statistically superior team mate Double World Champion and "Best of the era" (Alonso) can only just manage to out distance Crashtor (Maldonado...)
----
Senna da Silva to me will always be the guy who crashed on purpose to win, or force an opponent out of the race. That is never the mark of a great.
Schumacher unfortunately had the same problem - he was a dirty driver when things got tough.
And how can you race with a driver who will shunt you if things get too hard for them and they get desperate?
Hard to judge older drivers due to the lack of footage too observe. Modern drivers make a mistake and it is under a microscope and dissected by a phalanx of former racers.
So what makes up your personal "great driver" cake?
Raw Speed
Mechanical expert - (Not Cole Trickle from Days of Thunder!)
Consistency
Mechanical Sympathy
Sublime Car control (Wet and changeable grip conditions)
Race Craft
Team Player
... Dick Dastardly 'tache
... monosyllabic post race interview style
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Tired Tyres
Premium
- 12,508
- West Yorkshire
- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
Gilles Villeneuve, Keke Rosberg and Senna. Why? Because I saw them all race so I know they were a lot better than anyone around them.
I can't vote for anyone before my time. I didn't see them race. I wouldn't vote for anyone competing now as I stopped going to F1 races a number of years ago, so again I haven't seen them race with my own eyes. TV doesn't even tell you half the story when it comes to drivers.
I can't vote for anyone before my time. I didn't see them race. I wouldn't vote for anyone competing now as I stopped going to F1 races a number of years ago, so again I haven't seen them race with my own eyes. TV doesn't even tell you half the story when it comes to drivers.
- 804
- GTP_ZippyCat
Voted Clark, Lauda and Schumacher.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Interesting to see Fangio getting so many votes in the poll so far... I'd actually expected that many people wouldn't think further back than Senna. Good to be wrong 
- 8,015
- GTP_Royalton
Jim Clark is #1 to me. He achieved the Grand Slam (pole, fast lap, lead every lap, win) 8 times. By comparison Lewis Hamilton has only done that just once in his career. Michael Schumacher, as dominate as he was, only accomplished that feat 5 times. He also turned down Monaco to run the Indianapolis 500, a race in which he lapped the entire field on his way to victory. And even somehow managed to run a NASCAR race.
He even had a higher pole winning percentage then Ayrton Senna
I have alot of respect for the guy
He even had a higher pole winning percentage then Ayrton Senna
I have alot of respect for the guy
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Jimmy Clark was on my list too although I'm not old enough to have seen him race. Hard to argue with 33 poles and 25 wins in 72 races, winning Indy (by 2+ laps no less) and the F1 title in the same year along with winning the BTCC and Tasman series while competing in F1, 2nd overall at LeMans, rallying, even a stint in Nascar.
You can't imagine how mad Canadians were for Gilles back in the day. Stuff like this is how legends are born
:
Stats don't tell the whole story though. He had a difficult 1978 rookie campaign as many drivers do and had many retirements after issues with the Michelin tires among other things. No one was beating Lotus that year as Andretti and Peterson went 1-2 and won half the races. The 312T4 (1979)was the best car he had and Ferrari finished 1-2 in the series with Gilles and Scheckter each getting 3 wins and many podiums between them, but as the second driver at the time, it was in the cards for Scheckter to win. Gilles had downright awful cars for the next two years. The 312T5 (1980) was such a disaster that reigning World Champion Scheckter scored only 2 points and retired at the end of the year, probably partly because in every race they managed to finish together, Gilles was ahead of Scheckter. The 126C (1981) was also dramatically outclassed and in spite of atrocious handling, Gilles brought it home to victory twice while team mate Pironi only managed 9 points all season, never finishing higher than 4th. With 2 cars entered every race, they averaged 1 DNF per race!
You can't imagine how mad Canadians were for Gilles back in the day. Stuff like this is how legends are born
:
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- 4,464
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- GTP_Grand_Prix
He also got lapped due to a puncture at the 1967 Italian Grand Prix, and drove at such a pace that he first unlapped himself, then reclaimed the lead 48 laps later. Unfortunately he "only" finished 3rd due to a faulty fuel pump on the last lap, but this was one of, if not the greatest comeback drive(s) in motorsports history. Don't forget this was at Monza of all places, a circuit composed mainly of straights.
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Senna , G Villeneuve and Schumacher
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