The Bill Cosby Situation

  • Thread starter Liquid
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Liquid
Is the "Spanish Fly" a very well known routine in the States then? In that, most people have heard it and know what it is?
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That depends how you mean. Even 40 years ago the joke was just a single set on an album where Cosby mostly joked about his work on I, Spy. In 1969 alone he released 3 albums, and he averaged at least one album a year for an entire decade. It's obviously nowhere near as well known as any of the material he recorded for Himself. On the other hand, anyone who is old enough to have fought in Vietnam probably heard the concept behind the joke (get a woman near Spanish Fly and they get all hot and bothered) firsthand as kids just like Cosby was joking about (hence the Larry King interview), which played well for the audience on the album since the people at that theater were all at least as old as him.




Either way, the "rediscovering" of a 45 year old Bill Cosby album talking about his search for an urban legend aphrodisiac is beyond a stretch to directly link to the alleged repeated administering of actual sleeping drugs and the subsequent raping of dozens of women. I have to imagine the "outrage" about the album has mostly to do with the fact that, while he was never anything approaching Richard Pryor, Cosby's creative output before Himself and The Cosby Show was not always the same Scooby Doo-filter applied work that dominated everything he did after 1984.
 
Liquid
Is the "Spanish Fly" a very well known routine in the States then? In that, most people have heard it and know what it is?

Another cultural quirk perhaps, but it's not a joke or routine which is or has been commonly used in the UK over the years so it probably stands out as more awkward than it is.
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Yes, I'm not getting this frankly bizarre idea that it's a common comedy skit either - it isn't. And even if it was, there's something different about this - Cosby has spoken and even written about it in an autobiographical sense. There's a massive difference between this and some seemingly random 'joke'.

It strikes me as pretty amazing that Cosby can actually go on network TV and talk about slipping drugs into a woman's drink to make her sexually amenable, and yet it can still be completely dismissed as funny and completely irrelevant to the accusations being made against him. King and Cosby's fans clearly never dreamed of making the association between these anecdotes and non-consensual acts, but unfortunately for Cosby, that association has now been made by almost 20 women. Spiking someone's drink without their knowledge or consent has always been immoral, not to mention illegal. Perhaps the reason why Cosby has not been pulled up on this before is because the assumption always was that these women he refers to when talking about Spanish Fly knew what they were being given and/or had consented to sex, however it would appear that this assumption is now on incredibly shaky ground.
 
Hmmm, I'm still not sure I'd say that joking about actually drugging women is exactly common. The ad you posted alludes to a similar situation, but there's a massive difference between an advert and fictional characters/scenarios played deliberately for laughs, and a personal admission about slipping drugs into women's drinks - the latter is far, far more serious, especially since it now also happens to be precisely what around 20 unconnected women claim Cosby has done to them. What I am saying is that, while it might be considered humorous in a certain context (like the ad you posted), it isn't so funny when you consider the possibility that Cosby isn't joking about spiking women's drinks.
 
Touring Mars
Name one present day comedian who talks about drugging women for sex. You are right to say that times have changed - Cosby did get away with saying this (and even writing about it) in the past, but the laughter sounds a bit hollow when you consider the possibility that he is not actually joking, but talking about his actual behaviour.
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I don't think any comedian other than Cosby has said it and it's on YT, but some have said worse..
NSFW for these for a flying F..
3:50



Something along the lines what Cosby said is either pure coincidence, or pure genius, as no one else I could fine in the last hour has said much similar..
 
There's a difference between "spanish fly" and what these women are saying they experienced. In theory, Spanish Fly is a stimulant, making women "horny" and if you happen to be the guy out on a date with them, obviously you think you'll get a little slap and tickle because of it. Not saying that's ethical, just saying that's what Cosby was joking about in those videos, not about drugging women to the point of unconsciousness and having sex with them which is what he's accused of.
 
For those who aren't familiar with the Spanish Fly concept in pop culture this was a pretty popular song in 1989. It talks about using a drink to get women, right alongside homophobia and fear of commitment.

 
Johnnypenso
There's a difference between "spanish fly" and what these women are saying they experienced. In theory, Spanish Fly is a stimulant, making women "horny" and if you happen to be the guy out on a date with them, obviously you think you'll get a little slap and tickle because of it. Not saying that's ethical, just saying that's what Cosby was joking about in those videos, not about drugging women to the point of unconsciousness and having sex with them which is what he's accused of.
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How do you know? That's merely an assumption on your part.

In any case, it is completely unethical to spike someone's drink (and by spike I mean to drug without consent) - in fact, it's a criminal offense here in the UK and probably is in most places nowadays. Modern day date rape drugs such as rohypnol renders victims unable to physically deter an attack and, crucially, renders them unable to consent to sex - that's the whole point. Spiking someone's drink is an assault in itself. Whether the chemical make-up of the drug is known to the attacker or not is a moot point - if it works it works, and I wouldn't be surprised if people who use(d) hypnotic drugs didn't have the first clue what they actually had.

I think many of you are confusing fantasy and reality here. Perhaps if Bill Cosby had just sung 'Funky Cold Medina' or had starred in an Axe body spray commercial there would be less reason to be suspicious, but he didn't. He has, in the past, openly discussed obtaining and using 'Spanish Fly', not as a character, not in a film or an advert, but in reality, hence I don't think it is in any way unfair to say that there is very good reason to be suspicious of Cosby and his motives.
 
Johnnypenso
There's a difference between "spanish fly" and what these women are saying they experienced. In theory, Spanish Fly is a stimulant, making women "horny" and if you happen to be the guy out on a date with them, obviously you think you'll get a little slap and tickle because of it. Not saying that's ethical, just saying that's what Cosby was joking about in those videos, not about drugging women to the point of unconsciousness and having sex with them which is what he's accused of.
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Well explained Johnny. The Brown Hornet makes more sense now.

brown-hornet_L25.jpg
 
Touring Mars
How do you know?
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Because that's not what Spanish Fly does, either in real life or according to the joke. You're the one making the assumption that all those times he was talking about searching for Spanish Fly because of what he heard as a kid to make women horny, he really meant using rohypnol on women so he could rape them when they fell asleep.

Touring Mars
In any case, it is completely unethical to spike someone's drink (and by spike I mean to drug without consent) - in fact, it's a criminal offense here in the UK and probably is in most places nowadays.
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Tornado
Hindsight has made it clear that the "slipping women drugs" implication is pretty bad even ignoring the accusations,
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Johnnypenso
Not saying that's ethical,
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Who said otherwise?

Touring Mars
He has, in the past, openly discussed obtaining and using 'Spanish Fly', not as a character, not in a film or an advert, but in reality,
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That's very impressive on his part since:
  1. It doesn't actually work on women.
  2. It's obscenely poisonous.
 
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Cosby has openly discussed putting stuff into women's drinks, apparently with the intent of making them sexually conducive. Whether it was cantharidin (Spanish Fly) or not is a moot point. Even if it was (and had no effect), it is still completely unethical (and an assault). But, it seems to me that it is very unlikely that Cosby is talking about cantharidin... he wouldn't know or care what it was, provided it had the desired effect.

I had a similar discussion about this with a stoner friend of mine recently. He claimed that LSD was a particularly interesting drug, but I asked him how he knew what he had taken was actually LSD. His dealer told him it was LSD, was the answer. When I said that it was extremely unlikely to be LSD, but was almost certainly another chemical that had similar effects, he eventually agreed and said, 'well, it doesn't really matter, since it did what I expected it to do'. I've had similar discussions with my parents about so-called 'uppers' and 'downers' - my parents didn't do drugs, but some of their friends did - but they had no clue what uppers were chemically, and indeed there are many different drugs that were called uppers and downers.

The point is that the nature of the substance doesn't matter - and you can call them whatever you want. 'Spanish Fly' is an actual substance (cantharidin), but to a 13 year old kid it's anything that makes a girl go crazy e.g. a hypnotic.
 
Touring Mars
The point is that the nature of the substance doesn't matter - and you can call them whatever you want. 'Spanish Fly' is an actual substance (cantharidin), but to a 13 year old kid it's anything that makes a girl go crazy e.g. a hypnotic.
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Society agrees that slipping people Mickey's is the bad part of that joke (though that obviously wasn't as true at the time). Separated from the delivery method, Society pretty blatantly draws a line between what Spanish Fly was supposed to do and what rohypnol or whatever sleeping drug of choice do; and in the routine and in the King interview Cosby was talking about the former. Whether the double standard is fair or not is irrelevant.
 
I largely agree with that, but there is something inconsistent - Cosby talks about a drug called Spanish Fly but appears to describe something else. Spanish Fly (cantharidin) is "supposed to" make women more likely to engage in sexual activity, but, as you correctly point out, it actually doesn't. That is not consistent with Cosby's recollections, however. So, either he's talking crap and has never used it or anything like it (possible, but I find that unlikely), or he did use Spanish Fly and is exaggerating the effects (again possible, but unlikely for a couple of reasons), or he has used something he called Spanish Fly and it did have the desired effect, and therefore it wasn't cantharidin but something else (possible and consistent with Cosby's "joke").
 
Touring Mars
Cosby has openly discussed putting stuff into women's drinks, apparently with the intent of making them sexually conducive. Whether it was cantharidin (Spanish Fly) or not is a moot point. Even if it was (and had no effect), it is still completely unethical (and an assault). But, it seems to me that it is very unlikely that Cosby is talking about cantharidin... he wouldn't know or care what it was, provided it had the desired effect.

I had a similar discussion about this with a stoner friend of mine recently. He claimed that LSD was a particularly interesting drug, but I asked him how he knew what he had taken was actually LSD. His dealer told him it was LSD, was the answer. When I said that it was extremely unlikely to be LSD, but was almost certainly another chemical that had similar effects, he eventually agreed and said, 'well, it doesn't really matter, since it did what I expected it to do'. I've had similar discussions with my parents about so-called 'uppers' and 'downers' - my parents didn't do drugs, but some of their friends did - but they had no clue what uppers were chemically, and indeed there are many different drugs that were called uppers and downers.

The point is that the nature of the substance doesn't matter - and you can call them whatever you want. 'Spanish Fly' is an actual substance (cantharidin), but to a 13 year old kid it's anything that makes a girl go crazy e.g. a hypnotic.
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Spanish Fly was thought of as an aphrodisiac back in the day, or at least that's how my mates and I thought of it, increasing a woman's sexual desire, but not putting her into a "hypnotic state" or unconsciousness or anything along those lines. It was extremely common back in the 70's to talk or joke about it. I understand what you're saying and I'm not excusing anything obviously, but to me there's still huge difference between slipping something into her drink and making her horny but still having her faculties and ability to exercise her free will, and drugging someone into unconciousness and having your way with her. Both are crimes, but the former might be assault, while the latter could be on the level of kidnapping, forcible confinement etc.
 
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Johnnypenso
Spanish Fly was thought of as an aphrodisiac back in the day, or at least that's how my mates and I thought of it, increasing a woman's sexual desire, but not putting her into a "hypnotic state" or unconsciousness or anything along those lines. It was extremely common back in the 70's to talk or joke about it. I understand what you're saying and I'm not excusing anything obviously, but to me there's still huge difference between slipping something into her drink and making her horny but still having her faculties and ability to exercise her free will, and drugging someone into unconsciousness and having your way with her. Both are crimes, but the former might be assault, while the latter could be on the level of kidnapping, forcible confinement etc.
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There is a difference between slipping someone a drug to make them 'horny' and drugging someone with the intent of assault/rape - but, it's only a matter of degree. Both acts are wrong, but one is arguably worse than the other (but not necessarily - it entirely depends on what happens to the person who has been drugged against their will). In contrast, however, the difference between drugging someone and not drugging someone is black and white - one is immoral, the other is not.

That said, one would need to be pretty experienced and knowledgeable about the drug and its effects to know exactly to what extent you could impair someone if you merely intended on making someone a bit more uninhibited (as opposed to rendering someone completely incapable) and even that is on very shaky ground morally - if the intention is to change someone's behaviour to the extent that they do something that they would not normally do, then that is barely any different to robbing them of their capacity to consent at all (i.e. by rendering them unconscious).

While I agree with you that drugging someone is not in itself evidence that the person doing the spiking is intent on rape, I would say that it only requires a small leap of the imagination to believe that someone who spikes women's drinks to make them less inhibited (immoral) may also be inclined to take advantage of women who can no longer be reasonably described as capable of giving consent (very immoral).

This is why I believe Cosby's anecdotes of spiking women's drinks puts him squarely in a very uncomfortable light - because, in his own words, he's put himself in the 'immoral behaviour' category, and it doesn't require a completely new line of reasoning to go from that behaviour to the kind of stuff he's being accused of.
 
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Touring Mars
This is why I believe Cosby's anecdotes of spiking women's drinks puts him squarely in a very uncomfortable light - because, in his own words, he's put himself in the 'dodgy behaviour' category, and it doesn't require a completely new line of reasoning to go from that behaviour to the kind of stuff he's being accused of.
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It would put him in a very different light...if he was the only one joking about Spanish Fly in the 70's. Everyone joked about Spanish Fly in the 70's which to me renders it meaningless in light of the recent allegations. Plus, it's a joke:odd:
 
Touring Mars
This is why I believe Cosby's anecdotes of spiking women's drinks puts him squarely in a very uncomfortable light - because, in his own words, he's put himself in the 'immoral behaviour' category, and it doesn't require a completely new line of reasoning to go from that behaviour to the kind of stuff he's being accused of
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big respect the sharp mind and strong english / you would be a formidable prosecutor

this is a great thread / i live under a rock and had no idea this was even in the news

the guy is a paid actor/entertainer, has spent his whole life doing this / that being said, who is to say anything he says in an interview is even truth ? possible that he was just acting ? 'hamming it up' on the camera ?
 
Nah, this has really pissed in their Trilbies.
 
Don't be getting any ideas.

I think we should give Cosby the benefit of the doubt - may she had hayfever and he was just trying to be helpful.
 
Touring Mars
Cosby testified under oath in 2005 that he drugged women with Benadryl and obtained other drugs with the intent of using them on women he wanted to have sex with.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...itted-sedative-women-sex-2005-court-documents
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Two of the women testified that they willingly took the drugs:

That woman and a second woman testified in the same case that they knowingly took quaaludes from him, according to the unsealed documents.
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Beyond this... what? There doesn't seem to be any progress with the pending cases, at the moment... and I'm wondering if Cosby will continue to evade conviction.

Not that his career and legacy aren't completely in tatters, at this point...
 

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