The Bill Cosby Situation
- Thread starter Liquid
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- KCCO
Who gives a rat's ass if he was the most "powerful" black man in the country at the time. The court system doesn't give a damn if it were a homeless man or the secretary of the state. Either way, they should have taken the man to court if they wanted to do something about it. You don't wait a month after a car accident to file a police report, let alone 30-40 years..
You could say that for each and every time the claims were brought up, that he was either in his peak or a plateau or downhill decline. You claim he is a "stock parody" when he probably at his most highest level to be regarded, speaking at colleges with many professorships. A TV show is one thing but being able to debate at some Ivy League schools is another, one far greater.
I'm not ignoring anything. It's ridiculous for some of these women not to do anything about it, but gloat all day to the media about their "suffering".
Resolution can go either way. They could be denied everything or be told "yes he raped you, but it is beyond the limits of what the system can judge on punishment/result." Anything could happen, provided that these are true.
The most effective date would be the day after. Why are you among others not able to grasp that?
The reply to the original quote was on the basis that if all but the two who have taken action were found to be illegitimate/false, then Cosby has every reason to do similar action against them, who claim the situation is about
Cosby and his family has/have lost just as much if not more than these women's emotions...
- 3,033
I'm for punishing real predators I suppose, maybe Cosby is one. No I guess i was thinking of a local guy I've ridden with on bike rides, a former University instructor, who owns several businesses around here. Was caught having "relationships" with his college students. All over 18 all consented. They really feathered and tarred him for nothing. Where I live sex "abuse" is not hated as vehemently as other parts of the country. But the stigma is still very powerful. For some reason we feel guilty about any kind of sex. The Russians complain of all the gays and the gay pride but they stigmatize all forms of sex: porn is all banned the porn is run by the Russian mob and child porn at huge levels goes along with the mafia run industry Great example of the effect of passing conservative sex laws.
Conservatives seem especially "protective" over children and wish to punish child "molesters" along with children themselves who "molest" other children. An example of this is seeing kids as young as 9 put on the public sex offender data base for life. Essentially a life over sentence if you wish to go to college, get a job and live in a home like a typical human being in the US. At this point a child is better off killing another child or even mowing down a group of people in a car than sexually touching another child. The sex offender data base is of such a stigma and it has been pointed out by those within the juvinile system that kids have dissapeared with not trace it is because they were molested by an older KID usually a teenager who then killed and burned the body. Either didn't get caught or realized its a lesser crime in this country to kill then have sexual contact with the "wrong" person whether it be a student or one under age of consent.
Liberals want to go after any man who drugs or rapes woman. Hazing and "rape" have become the new targets for media hype. If you are a teacher now you need to be careful especially with older teenagers and college age not to look or talk in any way that could be conceived as sexual the danger is of course SEXUAL HARASSMENT which has become overwhelmingly scary as there is literally no end to what could be perceived as is vary vague term.
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Joel
Premium
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- Noob616
Yes, because in 2014 if you report that you've been in a car accident your word will be taken at face value. In 1975 if you report that you've been raped by Bill Cosby you would not be taken remotely seriously.
"Among others" reporting in.
Because that's nonsensical. In 2014 women who come forward with sexual assault allegations get called jilted exes, psycho bitches, whores, gold diggers, and they were "asking for it" and probably "wanted it". Do you honestly think this would have been successful 30 years ago?
The reasonable person test isn't really vague. Are you saying or doing something to someone that a reasonable person would consider unwelcome and of a sexual nature? No? Then you didn't sexually harass them.
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- 6,425
- KCCO
That's not the point whether it is credible or not. The point with this situation and a car accident is how rapidly action is taken... 30-40 years is absurd, let alone to bring it up again after failed attempts for some..
Yeah, I do think it would be more successful provided that the allegations are true. What will they have for any evidence to convince a judge/jury that these statements are in fact true, other than that 20+ women have "claimed" they too were raped, or touched inappropriately by him.
- 29,936
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
I accept that you're trying to draw comparisons but there's a huge difference between a car accident and sexual assault. For a start, if both are proven to be true, a car accident isn't always a crime but sexual assault is.
- 13,907
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Sure.
A woman would report to the police that she'd been raped.
"That's a serious crime!" says the police officer. "Sit down here and tell me all the details you can remember. Who was the rapist?"
"Bill Cosby," the lady replies through tears.
"Bill Cosby?!" shouts the police officer. "Get the 🤬 out of here, we don't need bitches like you in here blackening Bill Cosby's good name."
Policemen have a job to do. No matter who the accused rapist is, they have to make at least some effort. Maybe they wouldn't look into an accusation against Bill Cosby as thoroughly as they would against homeless Bill McRapist, but I don't think there's a chance in hell that they simply blow it off without at least taking a quick look at the facts.
- 6,425
- KCCO
Car accident (vehicular homicide), robbery, assault, hit and run, domestic violence, false imprisonment..... whatever you want to call it. What it is, does not matter, what you do after, does, which is my point. You don't wait forty years to argue something that may/may not have happened, you do it the day of/next day (depending on time circumstances).
There is nothing to make me feel as if Cosby has done anything wrong. 26 people who "claim" something does not sway me because there is no evidence supporting those claims. Paying $100,000 and other amounts to various women to stop harassment/job endangerment is not a legitimate beam of support, and proves nothing was actually done between Cosby and those women. They may trash his name, and take no legal action and Cosby and his family will suffer more than they will.
Find evidence to prove to me that Cosby did all of the accusations and I will change my mind. He isn't walking away scot-free either because nothing is being done against him to prove their cases, other than a war of words.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I think you're underestimating the power of a Bill Cosby back in the day, and the lack of support for women in general 20+ years ago who might have come forward. It was very different back then. If one had come forward I think it most likely would have been just swept under the rug because they went there willingly and couldn't prove they were drugged. They'd probably just be treated as if they had too much to drink. There was no computer database back then either, so linking women together from different parts of the country, when there was no active case file would have been highly unlikely.
I have no idea what Cosby did or didn't do, but I do understand why these women would not have come forward decades ago if indeed they were raped as they claim to be. Many women at that time chose to live with the shame and indignity of being sexually assaulted rather than face public scrutiny at a time when mixed relationships were still somewhat taboo and there were far more questions about a woman's intent and state of mind than there are today.
- 40,855
Talking about police officers from 2014 using 2014 standards of law, you'd be right. Talking about police officers from 1975 investigating crimes committed in 1975, you'd be wrong (and I daresay that's why Cosby said some of what he allegedly did happened "decades ago").
As an example, how long ago in the US do you think it was when you could still use "Woman I raped has a prior history of having a lot of sex" as a way you could have rape charges brought against you dismissed entirely?
The answer is that it was a damn sight more recent than 1975.
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- 6,425
- KCCO
I understand where you are coming from. I have only been on this Earth for just under 19 years, so my knowledge of events prior to 1996 on a first hand basis are non-existent. But from what I can recall from history, advanced classes, ap, the Internet, whatever, can help me formulate what I think happened.
I'm not a woman, so I can't understand why they would want to live like that for that many years and not take action. From my pov, forget telling people what happened, do something about it. It's sickening that they use the excuse for what you and others say "many chose to live with shame and indignity..etc" when they had the option to do something about it. That is what I don't understand.
Forget what era you lived in or public opinion. If it didn't matter enough to them at the time then why should it now? Why should anyone hear their cries when they should have done something about it then...
It's none of my business to know what may/may not have happened between Cosby and these women, and I surely won't have anything to do with the result of all of this. I'm just expressing my opinion as to why people shouldn't be believing their stories about something which, imo, never happened. If you find my way of looking at this and other situations wrong, so be it. It won't change me what you have to say, unless the actual situation of what is going on changes my mind. I accept what everyone has to say, but I don't agree with all of it...
- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
I think the thing is that at the time and without much in the way of forensic evidence to make your case the onus was often on the women to prove they were raped and didn't ask for it and couldn't get away etc. etc. etc. They didn't think they had an option. It was a very different era back then and when you combine the fact that most of these women are white and Cosby is black, that adds a twist to it that you cannot understand from reading books and looking up stuff on the internet. Heck, not long before many of these incidents blacks were drinking from separate fountains and eating in separate restaurants and for a white woman to be with a black man was shameful in much of society, even among the so-called enlightened.
It was a very different time with a way of thinking that would be foreign to many young people today and thank God for that. Again, I don't know what happened either, and we likely will never have irrefutable proof, but it's not hard for me to understand that if it actually did happen, why the women didn't come forward.
EDIT: Breitbart is reporting a potential claim of drugging and toe licking (and potentially more) from 2008:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollyw...Claims-Bill-Cosby-Drugged-Her-Licked-Her-Toes
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- 29,362
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- GTP_Mars
... and this has already been addressed. Whether you'd recommend reporting a crime to the police immediately is irrelevant - the fact remains that this is often not the case, particularly in incidences of sexual assault, abuse and rape. Whether you accept that or not is not relevant either - it happens. Jimmy Savile abused hundreds of people, many of them children, and yet he was never even arrested let alone convicted of any offenses. But, it has been established beyond all reasonable doubt that the man was a serial sexual abuser and a paedophile. Why is Savile relevant? Because it shows that it is perfectly possible for crimes/attacks to go unreported for many, many years (even with a very large number of victims) and we've already discussed some of the factors that might explain why this happens. The fact that it does happen, however, is the important point here.
As for Cosby, you are quite right not to assume that any of the allegations against him are true, but you are quite wrong if you believe that all of the allegations against him must be false simply because they weren't reported nearer the time of the incidents themselves. As has already been pointed out, it is partly due to the nature of the alleged offenses themselves that makes coming forward or attempting to prosecute particularly difficult, and potentially damaging to the victim. The identity of the alleged attacker is also highly relevant - their status/standing, their influence and their financial clout are all factors that play a part in how likely it is for a victim to speak out - this is almost certainly the major reason why Jimmy Savile was never convicted of any sexual offense.
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- FoolKiller1979
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And yet, they all came out with allegations 20-30 years later, as if they were all a bunch of schoolkids who didn't know any better in a 1980s-1990s America. If this was 50-60 years ago, maybe. What do a bunch of Hollywood Nobodies have to lose by lying? Almost nothing.
While I'm cautious and world-weary enough not to mix up The Actor/Comic with The Real-Life Person, something about this whole thing stinks. Maybe he's guilty as sin, but it's still kind of weird that the skeletons are all falling out of closet at once.
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But are they? Allegations against Cosby have been around for many years - there's some interesting reading here. Also, "Hollywood Nobodies"? I don't know if you meant to sound so disparaging, but that's pretty unfair to say the least. I would also say this - if they are making false accusations of rape/sexual assault, then they've got a hell of a lot to lose. To suggest otherwise would mean you have a level of personal insight into these people that the rest of us clearly don't.
Incidentally, some of the accusers who have 'just appeared out of the woodwork now' were infact involved in the original lawsuit against Cosby in 2005 as unnamed witnesses. In other words, they have spoken out about this before. And yet, to those who don't scratch beneath the surface of this story, it might appear as if they are 'brand new' accusers, when in fact that is not the case. (link - link)
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Dotini
(Banned)
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For several generations Bill Cosby built up an image as a good, kind, funny, strong father/doctor figure who was also a black man, an African-American. He became an archetype for positive race relations. He was entertaining us and doing social good at the same time. He seemed to be a real artist in that sense. But Jung said archetypes were real beings, and Cosby may turn out to be merely a real human being with all the shortcomings that implies. So when and if his illusion is shattered, it will in a sense damage the hopes and dreams of the American people for positive images of race relations. So his destruction is in some sense a destruction for the rest of us. There will be a cost for knowing the cold, ugly truth. A beautiful, useful or necessary lie is sometimes preferable to an ugly truth.
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You know what they say... many a true word spoken in jest...
- 6,425
- KCCO
If you're saying this after reading "because a man said Cosby was a rapist" in this link already mentioned, yeah, probably so.
I don't take much notice to that YT video, mainly because it's no different type of comedy than what could be said today. No one would think something like that about him, Jimmy Carr, Michael Mcintyre or any other comedian for that matter. The joke could be about driving buzzed and some people may get offended, some would laugh at it. Showcasing a video, and especially pointing out "It's True! It's True!" has nothing to deal with it.
And especially after hearing the laughter, I find it hard to differentiate that era from now. The way something is dressed up does not differentiate from how it really was, and that is most of the defending arguments that people have against Cosby, that "it was a different era, you wouldn't get it."
- 40,855
No, I'm saying it because of my own observations about the claims before and after.
You had a valid point about the video not meaning anything. Spanish Fly was an old joke that Cosby was just retelling to deliver the punchline at the end, as is his comedy style. It really doesn't mean anything specific in relation to Cosby or the allegations.
Don't confuse the fact that the video has little meaning as a pretext to dismiss the rest of the discussion; because at its core it is still a joke that was much more culturally acceptable at the time since it is still joking about slipping women drugs, even if the reasoning isn't the same.
You had a valid point about the video not meaning anything. Spanish Fly was an old joke that Cosby was just retelling to deliver the punchline at the end, as is his comedy style. It really doesn't mean anything specific in relation to Cosby or the allegations.
Don't confuse the fact that the video has little meaning as a pretext to dismiss the rest of the discussion; because at its core it is still a joke that was much more culturally acceptable at the time since it is still joking about slipping women drugs, even if the reasoning isn't the same.
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- 6,425
- KCCO
True. I've never heard of the comedian just until last week when I read another article similar to the link, which said he called Cosby a rapist but I never read the whole script of it..
I see in my eyes a bit of a double standard from the women who said "because a man said it", where they seem to focus whole heatedly on Cosby and not the actual issue at hand, equality for women and rape..
The fact that these stories (not in a fictional manner but the stories/claims themselves) about Cosby are one thing. The issue at hand in which women fear to reach out for help and actually get things done is another. One I think is a more pressing issue which is proven and needs to be addressed.
I see in my eyes a bit of a double standard from the women who said "because a man said it", where they seem to focus whole heatedly on Cosby and not the actual issue at hand, equality for women and rape..
The fact that these stories (not in a fictional manner but the stories/claims themselves) about Cosby are one thing. The issue at hand in which women fear to reach out for help and actually get things done is another. One I think is a more pressing issue which is proven and needs to be addressed.
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- JMoney-689
- Woodside689
Usually I'm pretty skeptical when rape/sexual assault allegations come out, especially if the target is a political figure, such as the case for Herman Cain. But Bill Cosby? Why would a dozen women accuse him of doing anything? Sure, they could get some money out of him but there's a LOT of women accusing him of such. And even they know there's practically no evidence or a way to convict him unless they can get him to admit to it. That's why you make your accusations after the crime occurred, not decades later. Some are saying Cosby's wife convinced them not to go to the police.
I think some things did happen. I love Bill Cosby's humor and hate to see this happen, but I really don't think all of these women are making this up. The bottom line is that there's no way he can be convicted unless he admits. There's no evidence for rape, sexual assault, or drugging 40 years after it happens.
I think some things did happen. I love Bill Cosby's humor and hate to see this happen, but I really don't think all of these women are making this up. The bottom line is that there's no way he can be convicted unless he admits. There's no evidence for rape, sexual assault, or drugging 40 years after it happens.
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On the contrary, I think it is extremely relevant.
It is not merely some old joke that Cosby used to tell - he's talking about himself. He also mentions it in a book (pretty dumb in hindsight), and, when talking about the book with Larry King, says this (skip to 2:50)
Still think it's a joke?
Name one present day comedian who talks about drugging women for sex. You are right to say that times have changed - Cosby did get away with saying this (and even writing about it) in the past, but the laughter sounds a bit hollow when you consider the possibility that he is not actually joking, but talking about his actual behaviour.
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- 40,855
Yes I do. It's pretty amusing that the alleged serial rapist used to retell a common joke from his teen years about trying find urban myth drugs to make women want to have sex with him; but then you realize he was telling it to an audience who were all in on the joke because they grew up with it too (and that includes that Larry King interview, which was pretty obviously just Cosby retelling the joke again to someone his age rather than a hard hitting bit of investigative journalism on King's part like the video frames it as) and the supposed smoking gun gets awful blurry. Hindsight has made it clear that the "slipping women drugs" implication is pretty bad even ignoring the accusations, but after that the comparison completely falls apart since without that link Cosby might as well be selling Axe body spray.
Eddie Murphy used to make some pretty awful jokes about homosexuals. Both of his huge 1980s specials (especially Delirious) had pretty sizeable portions dedicated to "ha ha faggots are so funny". If he was to say something today that was deemed homophobic by the press, I'd similarly struggle to say playing to an audience's contemporary humor and "experiences" that were acceptable at the time was proof all along of his latent homophobia.
Eddie Murphy used to make some pretty awful jokes about homosexuals. Both of his huge 1980s specials (especially Delirious) had pretty sizeable portions dedicated to "ha ha faggots are so funny". If he was to say something today that was deemed homophobic by the press, I'd similarly struggle to say playing to an audience's contemporary humor and "experiences" that were acceptable at the time was proof all along of his latent homophobia.
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- 29,936
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
Is the "Spanish Fly" a very well known routine in the States then? In that, most people have heard it and know what it is?
Another cultural quirk perhaps, but it's not a joke or routine which is or has been commonly used in the UK over the years so it probably stands out as more awkward than it is.
Another cultural quirk perhaps, but it's not a joke or routine which is or has been commonly used in the UK over the years so it probably stands out as more awkward than it is.
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