The Cadillac thread
- Thread starter RocZX
- 385 comments
- 44,877 views
- 9,554
- Vermont
- catamount39
- 51,111
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/DEC63B7114CF5607CA2580DE007DF30B
Also Motorsport in Australia is picking up with so many booming categories. Offering their LMP and GT programs here would be a start.
Cadillac are missing out on sales right now!
Also Motorsport in Australia is picking up with so many booming categories. Offering their LMP and GT programs here would be a start.
- 15,387
- TRAPPIST-1g
- ProjectWHaT
I kinda like the L shape of the rear lights.
- 9,554
- Vermont
- catamount39
God DANG that's ugly.
Turbo
(Banned)
- 3,824
- Elizabeth, New Jersey
Cadillac ATS Sedan will likely be dropped by 2019. If this is true, that means from 2019 forward, only ATS Coupes will be sold.
http://www.carscoops.com/2017/12/cadillac-ats-sedan-could-be-dropped-for.html
http://www.carscoops.com/2017/12/cadillac-ats-sedan-could-be-dropped-for.html
- 6,821
- Vero Beach, FL
- dice1998
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the CT6 V-Sport yet.
https://jalopnik.com/i-am-unduly-excited-for-the-2019-cadillac-ct6-v-sport-1823998733
https://jalopnik.com/i-am-unduly-excited-for-the-2019-cadillac-ct6-v-sport-1823998733
- 11,826
- Marin County
Because Cadillac has become so anonymous, I actually had to just check their website to see what they make. My goodness their product range is a mess. ATS - XTS - CT6 - XT5 - Escalade -- Two, arguably even three different alphanumeric protocols and a traditional name. It's impossible to intuitively gauge which of the alphanumerics is "superior" to the others. Criticize the Germans for their separate issues, but at least you get some sense of hierarchy. CT6 is superior to ATS? Ok. I fully understand that alphanumerics are meant to build brand recognition as opposed to model recognition you get with normal names, but when the cars that wear the tags are so uninspiring, its hard to imagine somebody digging deeper into the brand. (Off topic: I also feel like the alphanumeric trick has to be experiencing diminishing returns at this point because it's getting pretty difficult to remember which tag corresponds with which brand. XTS - TLX - XC - X6 - NX - RX - QX. I bet 9/10 people couldn't identify which brands each of those correspond to.)
Back on topic....More pressingly, the fact that the Escalade has some stiff competition from the new Navigator, and the fact that they only have a single other SUV is very surprising to me. Why do they make so many cars? The only product they make that has genuine, widespread enthusiasm is the Escalade. I don't understand why they don't use the Escalade as the foundation of the brand. (The El Miraj was an enormous wasted opportunity, IMO, as it could have been the American answer to the likes of the LC500, but with the ethos of the Escalade...that is an emphasis on luxury, attitude, and presence.) Getting back to SUVs, an emergency substantial refresh on the Escalade is needed, and the XT5 needs an immediate rebranding (Escalante?). I don't think I've seen one, come to think of it. What other mainstream car makers make fewer SUVs than Cadillac at the moment? I mean Nissan has 5! Little Mazda makes 3!
Back on topic....More pressingly, the fact that the Escalade has some stiff competition from the new Navigator, and the fact that they only have a single other SUV is very surprising to me. Why do they make so many cars? The only product they make that has genuine, widespread enthusiasm is the Escalade. I don't understand why they don't use the Escalade as the foundation of the brand. (The El Miraj was an enormous wasted opportunity, IMO, as it could have been the American answer to the likes of the LC500, but with the ethos of the Escalade...that is an emphasis on luxury, attitude, and presence.) Getting back to SUVs, an emergency substantial refresh on the Escalade is needed, and the XT5 needs an immediate rebranding (Escalante?). I don't think I've seen one, come to think of it. What other mainstream car makers make fewer SUVs than Cadillac at the moment? I mean Nissan has 5! Little Mazda makes 3!
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- 24,617
- Anoka, MN
Considering Cadillac just had their second best sales year in history, I don’t think they are concerned.
http://media.cadillac.com/media/us/.../news/us/en/2018/jan/0105-cadillac-sales.html
http://media.cadillac.com/media/us/.../news/us/en/2018/jan/0105-cadillac-sales.html
- 12,389
- Betelgeuse
- Beeblebrox_237
I think they should be, though. The products are better than they have been in a while, but they're still not great. The interiors look and feel lovely and I think they've sorted that bit out pretty well, but the infotainment system is (or at least it was last time I checked) garbage and is probably driving a large percentage of customers away. The designs are okay but to me they're a bit lacklustre; they look good compared to a Camry but next to their real competition from Lexus, Jaguar, BMW, Audi, and Mercedes they don't seem very interesting to look at, like the designer drew the basic shape and forgot to add the fine details. I also think they still need to work on adding space inside both in terms of storage and in terms of passenger room, as my recollection is that they don't feel as spacious as their BMWs counterparts. If, in the next generation of cars, they improve the packaging, replaced the awful infotainment system, and sharpened and refined the design then they'll probably keep selling well. If they don't then I suspect that they'll lose customers to cars like this:
- 24,617
- Anoka, MN
That's probably a bad example.
http://fordauthority.com/2018/03/lincoln-continental-to-be-discontinued-after-current-generation/
From what I could find the last year Cadillac didn't have growth in sales was 2010, which I couldn't find any global numbers for. I think they know what they are doing better than us lowly keyboard warriors.
Granted they certainly shouldn't get complacent, but the same can be said for every manufacturer.
- 40,802
The Chinese market isn't going to be an open tap of limitless year after year growth to bail out every other region forever; certainly not as more and more companies go after it. If the goal of Cadillac is still to compete directly with the Germans to modernize their image, they are getting their asses handed to them more now than they were when they were trying to do it with a bunch of FWD cars.
Might as well shut the forum down then.
- 40,802
What leap? What's to discuss if we're supposed to just defer to the manufacturers' judgement because they understand things better than we do?That's quite the leap, hope you brought a parachute.
Or was that not supposed to be a transparent attempt to shut down people not agreeing with you?
- 24,617
- Anoka, MN
Both were pretty much trying to argue that Cadillac has no clue how to run things. Their numbers say otherwise, hence, they know what they are doing.
Nowhere did I say this discussion shouldn't be happening.
Who said I wasn't agreeing with them (I'm not a fan of their current lineup either)? Both have put forth evidence that doesn't hold much water when you look at the sales figures. That is what I was trying to point out.
- 4,019
- Riga
That Lincoln looks like a Jaguar from few years ago.
- 11,826
- Marin County
Yes, Cadillac had a good year overall in 2017. But look closer. They had a 50% increase in sales in China. Do you expect that trend to continue? Especially with an impending trade war with exactly that market, Cadillac is exactly the kind of export China would step on for retaliation.
In addition, it doesn't take much to turn up less rossy numbers...Cadillac is actually selling less in the US.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/06/has-general-motors-cadillac-experiment-failed.aspx
I don't think they have a solid plan for the US market. I'm not sure they really have any plan. And it would be extraordinarily reckless for them to abandon development for the US market in favor of China or the Middle East.
The XT5 sold 27% better than all Cadillac sedans combined in the US market.
edit: Apparently this is happening
"The good news is that this is a problem that is already in the process of being fixed. Cadillac's marketing chief, Uwe Ellinghaus, confirmed in late 2016 that at least two completely new Cadillac crossover models will be released over the next couple of years, one smaller than the XT5, and one larger. There may also be a third new Cadillac crossover, a small one, in the works.
In addition, an all-new version of the big truck-based Escalade SUV is also expected, likely in late 2019 or early 2020. Together, the new SUVs will give Cadillac more products in the industry's hottest segments -- and that's when we'll be able to fairly evaluate the success-or-not of GM's Cadillac revival."
So I guess what I originally said is also a concern of Cadillac.
I still feel like Cadillac fell asleep at the wheel, as the CUV trend has been gaining momentum for probably 5 years now.
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- 40,802
No they weren't. That's such an extreme overreaction to what was in their posts that it just makes it look more like you were trying to shout them down by appealing to authority.
Eunos_Cosmo said:
- Their model lineup is currently confusing, being made up of three (and arguably four, depending on the lineage the CTS falls under) different naming schemes. Something that has been a problem for a couple years now, and will remain a problem for a couple more years still; for no adequately explained reason. When the same person who currently runs Cadillac implemented the "just copy Audi" naming scheme at Infiniti (after leaving Audi), it was done within a year.
- Their model lineup, despite them being well aware what the future was in terms of segment growth well before the current person began running the company, is overwhelmingly made up of cars in dying markets.
Beeblebrox said that Cadillac, for all their inroads, still can't completely compete with the German marques; so they need to keep working to avoid having also-rans nip at their heels. Other than the specific example he used, what is he even saying that's different from you?
In a market that is 50% larger than it was in 2010, Cadillac's sales have ultimately stagnated back to around where they were at that time. When most of the major players in the segment (Audi, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, Infiniti) have posted sales that have at least met (if not greatly exceeded) those from before the housing crisis, Cadillac has been stuck with also-rans like Acura and (yes) Lincoln in not even coming close. Their current plan has parts that will probably help (crossovers) and parts that might not (replacing nameplates); but are both things that should have been done years ago instead of gradually in the near future.
In a market where there have been year over year record sales growth for pretty much everyone (BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and even Jaguar and Lexus) for the past 5 years or so, Cadillac doesn't even have a clue how they want to approach the market beyond hoping people will just buy their cars since they're technically available for sale, or whatever.
In a market that is currently having an insatiable hunger for luxury cars, Cadillac's increase over 2016 (that completely caught them off guard as it pertains to the American market; which doesn't reflect well on Cadillac's domestic presence at the very least) is smaller than BMW's was, even though BMW already outsold Cadillac 3:1 the year prior. Mercedes also outsold Cadillac 3:1 in 2016, and their sales increase in 2017 was nearly double that of Cadillac's. Cadillac had a bigger sales jump than Audi, but Audi also sold 500,000 cars a year for the past four years. Cadillac sold way more cars than Jaguar or Acura, but they both only set up shop in 2016. They had a bigger growth and as a result surpassed Lexus in China in 2017, but Lexus is probably cool with it since they drastically outsell Cadillac everywhere else and have generally been charting upward across the board over the same period of time regardless.
Cadillac sold a lot of cars in China. Every luxury car manufacturer with an automotive presence sold a lot of cars in China. Most of them have had consistently better sales every year they've been in the market. It's not really proof of anything other than "Chinese people currently really want luxury cars, sedans or not"
Eunos_Cosmo lives in America, mentioned a confusing model lineup and laughable lack of competitiveness in segments that have been huge for the past decade that Cadillac has known were big since at least 2010 when they made the SRX a regular crossover instead of an STS wagon.
Beeblebrox lives in Europe, mentioned Cadillac can't fully compete with the entrenched German brands yet and said they should continue working to ensure they don't get trapped as an also ran (but used a specific example that was poor to support it).
What are Cadillac's sales successes in Europe and America that refutes that?
So say that. Don't mention that a brand doing their... um... 4th major brand revitalization in 20 years probably know what they're doing because they fell into a huge market to offset the one they're being closed out of and one they don't even bother to compete in.
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- 24,617
- Anoka, MN
That is a very good point that I failed to consider.
And your original post is different how? It's called debating and while my argument may have been flawed, I didn't attempt to stop anyone from talking, all I did was post sales numbers and said GM wasn't completely clueless. You were the one that jumped in with "might as well shut the forum down than". Which seems a hell of a lot closer to shouting someone down than anything I posted.
Now I remember why I had you on my ignore list for quite awhile.
- 40,802
What authority was I appealing to? My original post noted that China's drastic sales growth across the board probably isn't sustainable long term, and that Cadillac is doing worse on paper at taking the fight to the Germans after multiple drastic and expensive brand overhauls than they were when they weren't really trying. Then I argued you mentioning Cadillac's 2017 sales as being indicative of management success to the extent of maybe being without question.
What debating? What argument? Eunos_Cosmo and Beeblebrox mentioned specific things about Cadillac's current model lineup, and you responded to both of them with sales numbers and an implication that Cadillac know what their doing more than we do to criticize them. You did so to the extent that you doubled down on it in the same post where you said that maybe you agreed with them:
When that's not what they were saying to begin with, and I explained to you what they were saying again and you ignored that too.
At least I know what you were apparently trying to say when you write "I think they know what they are doing better than us lowly keyboard warriors."
Yes, in response to your appeal to authority to a company that hasn't been able to stick to a stable product plan in the past twenty years and is fixing their lineup for the current market popularity 5 years after everyone else already started doing so. I also mentioned all of the same things Eunos_Cosmo did in my first post. I explained them in more detail in my last post.
No response to any of that, ever, but boy howdy you'll take issue a bunch of times with me calling out a logical fallacy in your post that only now you've bothered to explain as something else.
In the ten years you've been on this forum, I'm legitimately surprised that you think this is supposed to bother me like it would when you would call out Interludes for doing the same thing.
"Oh no. I'm going to make a researched post breaking down his points in an attempt to debate him, and to outsiders it will look like he just ignored it."
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- 40,802
What issue? I wish you had been honest instead of throwing a fit and shifting blame at everyone else, but since you did eventually explain what you were trying to say and eventually acknowledged what was actually being said to you (even if you only did so when someone else said it) that's seems pretty settled to me.
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