The Cadillac thread

  • Thread starter RocZX
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Cadillac unveils XT4 at the NY auto show
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Yeah I really can't see who would pick this over a Mazda CX-9 for the same money or less. I guess it has a Cadillac badge.

But at least they are reading the market properly.
 
I think it looks really good for a SUV. the only issue I have is the tear drop lines on the headlights. Other than it, it looks like a really nice car. Hopefully the underpinnings is good too .
 
So Cadillac boss Johan de Nysschen said this about a halo vehicle...

"We will produce a halo vehicle, and when it comes it will stun the world.
The world does not need another large-box conventional sedan."

So what if, that mid engine corvette we've been seeing really is a Cadillac?! I mean that new twin turbo Cadillac exclusive V8 was one of the motors supposedly going into the mid engine Vette right? And when we first saw the mule, wasn't it being tested amongst a bunch of Cadillacs? Then eventually testing alongside the ZR1? I mean, Cadillac is doing really well in the IMSA DPi class with their prototype. What if they want something to be more relatable to their prototype racing effort?
 
ND4SPD
So Cadillac boss Johan de Nysschen said this about a halo vehicle...

"We will produce a halo vehicle, and when it comes it will stun the world.
The world does not need another large-box conventional sedan."

So what if, that mid engine corvette we've been seeing really is a Cadillac?! I mean that new twin turbo Cadillac exclusive V8 was one of the motors supposedly going into the mid engine Vette right? And when we first saw the mule, wasn't it being tested amongst a bunch of Cadillacs? Then eventually testing alongside the ZR1? I mean, Cadillac is doing really well in the IMSA DPi class with their prototype. What if they want something to be more relatable to their prototype racing effort?
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This has been my theory all along.

I feel bad for Cadillac. The day after they show their so-so XT4, Lincoln throws down with the rather stunning Aviator. It will be interesting to see who's revitalization is more successful...my money is on Lincoln at the moment, despite them starting for a more unfavorable position....their ethos is a lot more definable and the vehicles reflect it.
 
RocZX
Cadillac unveils XT4 at the NY auto show
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Looks good at the front but could be a little more angular, the interior is really nice. Although I'm a fan of high back lights the way they have done it is slightly odd, they should have used more of the Escalade as inspiration.
 
ND4SPD
So Cadillac boss Johan de Nysschen said this about a halo vehicle...

"We will produce a halo vehicle, and when it comes it will stun the world.
The world does not need another large-box conventional sedan."

So what if, that mid engine corvette we've been seeing really is a Cadillac?! I mean that new twin turbo Cadillac exclusive V8 was one of the motors supposedly going into the mid engine Vette right? And when we first saw the mule, wasn't it being tested amongst a bunch of Cadillacs? Then eventually testing alongside the ZR1? I mean, Cadillac is doing really well in the IMSA DPi class with their prototype. What if they want something to be more relatable to their prototype racing effort?
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Now that would be something. It's the perfect cover, too, since journalists have been speculating about mid-engined Corvettes for the last 50-some years so everyone would assume that that's what it is.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
Because Cadillac has become so anonymous, I actually had to just check their website to see what they make. My goodness their product range is a mess. ATS - XTS - CT6 - XT5 - Escalade -- Two, arguably even three different alphanumeric protocols and a traditional name. It's impossible to intuitively gauge which of the alphanumerics is "superior" to the others. Criticize the Germans for their separate issues, but at least you get some sense of hierarchy. CT6 is superior to ATS? Ok. I fully understand that alphanumerics are meant to build brand recognition as opposed to model recognition you get with normal names, but when the cars that wear the tags are so uninspiring, its hard to imagine somebody digging deeper into the brand. (Off topic: I also feel like the alphanumeric trick has to be experiencing diminishing returns at this point because it's getting pretty difficult to remember which tag corresponds with which brand. XTS - TLX - XC - X6 - NX - RX - QX. I bet 9/10 people couldn't identify which brands each of those correspond to.)

Back on topic....More pressingly, the fact that the Escalade has some stiff competition from the new Navigator, and the fact that they only have a single other SUV is very surprising to me. Why do they make so many cars? The only product they make that has genuine, widespread enthusiasm is the Escalade. I don't understand why they don't use the Escalade as the foundation of the brand. (The El Miraj was an enormous wasted opportunity, IMO, as it could have been the American answer to the likes of the LC500, but with the ethos of the Escalade...that is an emphasis on luxury, attitude, and presence.) Getting back to SUVs, an emergency substantial refresh on the Escalade is needed, and the XT5 needs an immediate rebranding (Escalante?). I don't think I've seen one, come to think of it. What other mainstream car makers make fewer SUVs than Cadillac at the moment? I mean Nissan has 5! Little Mazda makes 3!
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Anonymous? Probably has to do more with what you seem to be following auto wise, considering the comment under this highlights reality for such an anonymous group
 
Eunos_Cosmo
Nope
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Good the response I was hoping for

I find it interesting, seeing as you then go to bring up your manufacture of choice as a comparison and questioning to why someone would choose to buy an XT4 as below...
Eunos_Cosmo
Yeah I really can't see who would pick this over a Mazda CX-9 for the same money or less. I guess it has a Cadillac badge.

But at least they are reading the market properly.
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Since both aren't in the same market, class, and overall range. Also while pricing may be similar it doesn't mean that they're all that comparable.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
I disagree. They are quite comparable.
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So one is luxury smaller end spectrum CUV, seats five competes in a different brackets range, market and class wise. The other is a 7 seat SUV, normal middle of the road that as said competes in a different market/class/range. While both again, are similar in pricing, that doesn't mean that buyers in the market for an XT4 would go to Mazda and say to themselves why not get a CX-9 instead simply based on pricing.

If you'd like to share with me how they're comparable go ahead.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
So one is luxury smaller end spectrum CUV, seats five competes in a different brackets range, market and class wise. The other is a 7 seat SUV, normal middle of the road that as said competes in a different market/class/range. While both again, are similar in pricing, that doesn't mean that buyers in the market for an XT4 would go to Mazda and say to themselves why not get a CX-9 instead simply based on pricing.

If you'd like to share with me how they're comparable go ahead.
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Because they are utility-shaped vehicles with similar pricing? Duh...:lol:
 
Tornado
No, but it does open the door up that one might go in the other direction.
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I don't really see how, any time I or others that I've spoken to looking for a car who are price matching and comparing, tend to stay in the market. When I was looking for a family size sedan to replace my previous one that's how I did it, when I was looking for a small beater sedan as a second car same call. And essentially why there are markets/ranges, in vehicle line ups which I'm sure you're well aware of.

I would expect someone needing or wanting an SUV wouldn't be looking at Cadillac for an XT4, but rather something bigger in the line up and perhaps not even Cadillac but GMC or Chevy due to the Suburban. Now I could see the argument much more easily made for CX-5 vs XT4, though again while they maintain the same range and class of vehicle they're not market counterparts.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
And essentially why there are markets/ranges, in vehicle line ups which I'm sure you're well aware of.
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I'm also well aware that the majority of BMW/Mercedes/Audi's dramatic upswing in sales in the past twenty years or so have not come at the expense of other luxury brands; starting in the 90s when all of the non-premium marques were essentially chased out of the executive car market. People will cross shop if the badge is good enough and the price is close enough even if the vehicle doesn't fit their needs as well, so then the question is merely is Cadillac's badge good enough like it is with Lexus and etc to make people consider it as an option. That allure may not apply when people who hang around automotive forums are buying beater compact cars, but the ones who do that also aren't generally the ones who walk into Mercedes dealerships and lease the cheapest CLA 250 they can get.
 
Tornado
I'm also well aware that the majority of BMW/Mercedes/Audi's dramatic upswing in sales in the past twenty years or so have not come at the expense of other luxury brands; starting in the 90s when all of the non-premium marques were essentially chased out of the executive car market. People will cross shop if the badge is good enough and the price is close enough even if the vehicle doesn't fit their needs as well, so then the question is merely is Cadillac's badge good enough like it is with Lexus and etc to make people consider it as an option. That allure may not apply when people who hang around automotive forums are buying beater compact cars, but the ones who do that also aren't generally the ones who walk into Mercedes dealerships and lease the cheapest CLA 250 they can get.
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No one is saying that people wont cross shop, most people tend to stick to needs of personal life when picking a vehicle. I don't see how this is an allure thing. My experience and conversation with many outside of these "specialty forums", tends to be one of looking for a vehicle to fill a need and then comparing said car again to others in that same market and range. Beater car was my wife's idea and she doesn't care at all about automotive stuff and she's the one that did more market comparison than me. She never picked a car that was out of the market one way or the other.

At the end of the day I agree, people tend to buy based on familiarity of manufacture/badge, but also market competitors for the needs they have in a vehicle. People looking for a small end CUV tend to do it for a several reason that a large SUV either overdoes or can't do. For example does the person need that much room when they're single or a couple or starting a family. Do they buy said vehicle for when living space isn't practical for something so large. Does it seem practical economically when considering gas expenses, maintenance, and so on.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
No one is saying that people wont cross shop, most people tend to stick to needs of personal life when picking a vehicle. I don't see how this is an allure thing. My experience and conversation with many outside of these "specialty forums", tends to be one of looking for a vehicle to fill a need and then comparing said car again to others in that same market and range. Beater car was my wife's idea and she doesn't care at all about automotive stuff and she's the one that did more market comparison than me. She never picked a car that was out of the market one way or the other.

At the end of the day I agree, people tend to buy based on familiarity of manufacture/badge, but also market competitors for the needs they have in a vehicle. People looking for a small end CUV tend to do it for a several reason that a large SUV either overdoes or can't do. For example does the person need that much room when they're single or a couple or starting a family. Do they buy said vehicle for when living space isn't practical for something so large. Does it seem practical economically when considering gas expenses, maintenance, and so on.
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Some people are very budget oriented though. This was the entire reason for my original post. If you have 35k and you want to spend it on an SUV thing, you could buy a smaller premium SUV/CUV or a slightly larger (and in this case) equally stylish and probably even more comfortable SUV (CX-9 or similar). It depends on where you place your values/needs. A coworker of mine was looking at buying a BMW X1 (for brand, design, etc) but ended up buying a similarly priced CX-9 because, for the price, the CX-9 offered more room and seemed like better value. I don't see why this is such a contentious idea, I really don't.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
Some people are very budget oriented though. This was the entire reason for my original post. If you have 35k and you want to spend it on an SUV thing, you could buy a smaller premium SUV/CUV or a slightly larger (and in this case) equally stylish and probably even more comfortable SUV (CX-9 or similar). It depends on where you place your values/needs. A coworker of mine was looking at buying a BMW X1 (for brand, design, etc) but ended up buying a similarly priced CX-9 because, for the price, the CX-9 offered more room and seemed like better value. I don't see why this is such a contentious idea, I really don't.
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SUV thing? There is a distinctive difference in CUV and SUV so much so that people are aware of it and if they're looking for a CUV are typically not in the SUV market. Your example for instance, is talking about a guy that was looking for a small sized 30k + (low end for BMW) luxury CUV and ends up getting a Full size SUV based on price. Which is fine, but one typically doesn't start in that market or range of vehicle and end up in a different market or range. Let's not keep conflating the idea that just because these cars have similar shape they're counter parts and thus fight in the same market.

I also said it depends on what needs are as we've said. Typically a person looking for the CX-9 or similar need it because of family size or a vehicle they plan to have for some time as their family grows. It's odd someone of that background would be in the market for an X1 when the X5/6 exists. Which tells me they were purely shopping on a price range and not a market or style. So in reality it's only one comparable thing not the quite I was told.

As for contentious? It gets a bit old that people sign up for a forum claim they're willing to discuss, and when a differing view comes along they find it as some attack or taboo when it's not. I'm simply finding it interesting that you made the claim you did since the market tends to not show that type of buyer which is why the market is the way it is.

I also found it interesting cause it's no mystery you're a big Mazda fan and thus seemed like a way to promote it.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
SUV thing? There is a distinctive difference in CUV and SUV so much so that people are aware of it and if they're looking for a CUV are typically not in the SUV market. Your example for instance, is talking about a guy that was looking for a small sized 30k + (low end for BMW) luxury CUV and ends up getting a Full size SUV based on price. Which is fine, but one typically doesn't start in that market or range of vehicle and end up in a different market or range. Let's not keep conflating the idea that just because these cars have similar shape they're counter parts and thus fight in the same market.

I also said it depends on what needs are as we've said. Typically a person looking for the CX-9 or similar need it because of family size or a vehicle they plan to have for some time as their family grows. It's odd someone of that background would be in the market for an X1 when the X5/6 exists. Which tells me they were purely shopping on a price range and not a market or style. So in reality it's only one comparable thing not the quite I was told.

As for contentious? It gets a bit old that people sign up for a forum claim they're willing to discuss, and when a differing view comes along they find it as some attack or taboo when it's not. I'm simply finding it interesting that you made the claim you did since the market tends to not show that type of buyer which is why the market is the way it is.

I also found it interesting cause it's no mystery you're a big Mazda fan and thus seemed like a way to promote it.
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You said this "While both again, are similar in pricing, that doesn't mean that buyers in the market for an XT4 would go to Mazda and say to themselves why not get a CX-9 instead simply based on pricing."

All I'm saying is that some might, because the Mazda offers a design (inside and out) that is premium-aspiring while also representing better value (value in this case meaning additional space for roughly the same price) to some buyers. It's a compromise -- smaller & premium (XT-4, X1, etc) or larger & more mainstream. But the thing is that the Mazda is like really good looking mainstream-plus, which I think is enough to poach the people who really wanted (but couldn't afford) something like an X5 away from X3/XT4 sales or make X3/XT4-intent buyers second guess themselves about not getting something almost as nice, with more room, for the same price.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
You said this "While both again, are similar in pricing, that doesn't mean that buyers in the market for an XT4 would go to Mazda and say to themselves why not get a CX-9 instead simply based on pricing."

All I'm saying is that some might, because the Mazda offers a design (inside and out) that is premium-aspiring while also representing better value (value in this case meaning additional space for roughly the same price) to some buyers. It's a compromise -- smaller & premium (XT-4, X1, etc) or larger & more mainstream. But the thing is that the Mazda is like really good looking mainstream-plus, which I think is enough to poach the people who really wanted (but couldn't afford) something like an X5 away from X3/XT4 sales or make X3/XT4-intent buyers second guess themselves about not getting something almost as nice, with more room, for the same price.
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Which is in fine but those that might are not the market norm, which is why it's an odd thing to say in general due to the idea that those are a small number of the buyer population. The XT4 is built with a mind of how to compete against the X1, GLA, Q3 and etcs of the world. Not the CX-9, Cadillac has a 7 Seater, long wheel base SUV, that has more options, more amenities and isn't front wheel drive only it just happens to be double the price because of all those things compared to the CX-9. Buyers typically know what they are going into the market looking for. If they again are simply looking for a vehicle in a designated price range, then market and type aren't going to matter.

As for looks and stuff that's all subjective and while you may like that vehicle that's not enough reasoning to think it would poach people away. The XT4 isn't that bad looking has nothing grotesquely going wrong for it, I could say the same for the Mazda as well and most vehicles in the current market, because again that is a subjective viewer justification for buying something. A objective one is filling needs, price range, and on paper numbers to compare from one to the other. I don't know if it was so much a compromise as it was just looking to buy a vehicle at a price.

X5 doesn't compete with XT4 anyways, the point of bringing up the X5 is that people typically looking for a mid-size SUV with luxury and plenty of seating are going that route. People looking for a regular vehicle with the same qualities without the luxury are going to go with the CX-9, Pilot, Highlander and Traverse. Again the viewpoint you've given is a limited one, and had it been the reasoning for your original post beyond the "looks" and naming your favorite brand, I would have probably not been so curious.
 

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