The Carmagedonn Thread: FCA and "Consolidation"

[V1P3R]

I don't think I've been in a new American car in a while, but over the weekend I got to ride in my friend's G8. Wow... what a piece of ****. At speeds it was loud, but if that wasn't bad enough because of the big ass sun roof (Which in theory would be a nice feature, but not in reality at least in GM's case) it howled even worse. How bad do you have to get before people realize what pieces of crap someone makes? I say let em die.

BTW, my sister has a tC and while it's not the same it does have a sun roof too that similarly a lot of people were complaining about creaking, but it's soooooooooo not as bad as the G8. Christ.

 

[Philly]

Poor quality is what got them here, but it seems that the Big Three are working on their quality issues, which should help them get back to building decent cars again.

Don't all sunroofs make noises? In both the Volvo and GTI, the sunroof rattles endlessly when it's tipped open, creates some kind of air vortex thingy when open and makes the occasional noise when closed. And both of those are cars that have quite outstanding fit and finish.

 

[V1P3R]

I've always wanted one, but have yet to get one. I would say yes, since you're obviously cutting into the cars rigidity, but I've NEVER experienced a worse car than the G8, I mean... you might as well drive with the thing open that's how bad it was.

 

[Philly]

How was it when you were driving with it? If it's tiled up, you have a big glass thing being supported by that little tilting mechanism, so it's bound to rattle. Closed, I've had issues with the little slider thing rattling with the rest of the roof. However, if the actual window part was rattling against everything, then I would say there would be a problem.

 

[V1P3R]

I'm a moron, I just realize it wasn't a G8 but a G6...

I wasn't driving, it was my friend driving. He never opened it or "cracked" it open too. There was a distinct "howling" that was coming from near the roof area which was different than the road noise that could be heard.

 

[niky]

Hmm? I drive at over 100 mph with my sunroof open (Mazda)... no creaking.

 

[V1P3R]

Well, what kind of sunroof is it though? I suspect it's your typical "rounded" square right? It's a little less susceptible to creaking if so. Not that I think Mazda's are crap, I actually like them a lot. My next car would be a Mazda if I could.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm a moron, I just realize it wasn't a G8 but a G6...

I kept thinking "WHAT THE HELL?!?!" when reading your things...

But even as a "GM guy," I'm not one to defend the G6. They finally updated the car for 2009, but it isn't enough to make it seem halfway decent compared to your basic Fusion, Accord, Malibu or Camry.

 

[V1P3R]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing searching for pics of the sunroof on a G8.

So... uh anyway, the G6 is absolute garbage then?

 

[Philly]

I'm a moron, I just realize it wasn't a G8 but a G6...

That there be your problem son.

 

[YSSMAN]

So... uh anyway, the G6 is absolute garbage then?

Its not that it is complete garbage, but I keep wondering why the hell they still build it when the Malibu and Aura are vastly superior alternatives in every sense of measure. Engines, transmissions, suspension design, wheel/tire combos, etc... Its all dozens of times better. I think the only "plus" for picking a G6 would be the available 6-speed manual in the GTP model, but even then, thats a bit "meh" without anything good backing it up.

 

[Keef]

The G6 was the first example of GM's quality improvement. It being the earliest, the quality obviously got better with the newer iterations. The bottom line is that the G6 is a universe apart from the old Pontiac cars. But you have to admit that its design hasn't gotten old. I think it's a pretty good looking car.

YSSMAN, I believe the G6 has the same suspension design as the Aura and Malibu, eh? They are all based on the same chassis. Just different parts/tuning, perhaps.

 

[YSSMAN]

Thats what I had meant on the suspension, my apologies. Even though the G6 and Aura are technically very similar cars, they feel very different. Jump into the new(er) Malibu, and things only get better. Considering how far they've been able to progress only on one generation of a Chassis, I can't imagine how much better the Epsilon II cars will be.

Well, assuming there will be a GM to sell us some.

 

[Tornado]

I think I figured out why GM is mysteriously losing money:

Spoiler

They have been subsidizing fuel prices in order to get gas under $2.00 in order for Camaro sales to be high!

 

[V1P3R]

That's funny

Spoiler

Might as well say that for ALL the domestic car companies and ALL their cars

 

[Omnis]

I think I figured out why GM is mysteriously losing money:

Spoiler

They have been subsidizing fuel prices in order to get gas under $2.00 in order for Camaro sales to be high!

So much for the Volt, then.

 

[Keef]

So much for the Volt, then.

They can only handle one task at a time, Omnis. Once they figure the Volt part out, they'll raise prices again so they don't sell any Cama...wait. No that's not right.

We're doomed.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, at least GM has "Plan B" ready to go just in case...

 

[harrytuttle]

You're missing the point as well. They (in particular GM) may not be able to go into Chapter 11 and would be forced directly into Chapter 7 (ie, liquidation). That is the last thing that we want. But even going into Chapter 11, we have some problems. First and foremost, who do you know thats going to buy a car from a "bankrupt" company? Secondly, who is going to pay for their warranty costs? Certainly not GM, Ford or Chrysler...

No, I genuinely think Chapter 11 is recoverable, even for a car company. I think the difference between some of the people here is that only some are looking long term. By long term I mean decades, not years. It took decades to get into this situation, it'll take decades to get out of it.

- The heads of GM, Ford and Chrysler are willing to do what Iacocca did nearly 30 years ago... Cut their pay to $1, no more bonuses across the board (already in effect at GM and Ford), all in the name of cutting costs

- They traveled to Washington by private jet, each of them. Whoopdy doo I say, but some of the House folks are making a big deal of it. Travel costs have already been slashed, it was publicized a week or so ago that GM was delaying new product debuts to Detroit and Chicago (instead of LA) because of the cost associated with getting the vehicles out there.

The point of those statements was not the action of individualized jet travel, but what it symptomized: excessive waste. The upper-level executives (and this is the case in all industries world-wide) create their own salaries, set their own rules and fringe benefits, charge everything to the company, and suffer no real consequences. Even the worst of CEO's have not only a golden parachute, but a job waiting for them after their bombtastic failure. This lack of accountability is what most people would hope to change. If the average guy failed so publicly, you can bet it'd be quite a while before he was working again.

- Congress is hinting at having strings attached with the extra money, higher CAFE standards have been suggested, the aforementioned bonus cuts, etc. The big question would be as to if they can get some kind of assurance that the cash would stay in the US and make certain that American workers keep their jobs.

I would certainly like assurance that either some kind of regulation or requirements are given before we -- the public -- involuntarily hand out almost US$1e9 to those-without-accountability. Both the auto and finiance industries are very lax in their self-policing.

- Confusion seems to be whats going on with whats to blame for the situation. GM, Ford and Chrysler are pointing figures at financial institutions that have tightened regulations on loans... While also suggesting that there isn't any confidence in order to buy-in. Something that Toyota, BMW, Honda, Nissan-Renault, DaimlerBenz, Volkswagen AG, etc can all confirm as well...

It's all to blame. It's all part of the cause. A catastrophe of this magnitude doesn't have just one cause. It didn't last time, or the time before that.

Some members of the House and Senate "get it," and simply put, others do not.

No, they certainly don't. But they do love grandstanding. It's how we got DMCA. I don't have especially high hopes for proper regulations/requirements this time around, but at least their mouths are flapping in the right place.


As for falling fuel prices, it's definitely not a good thing for our future. High fuel prices made alternative energy ideas look like the better investment. If prices should remaing this low (which I doubt they will for more than 12 months), funding will fall out of the alternative energy industry faster than coke up a LA debutant's nose.

But I have high hopes. Those who were messing with the oil commodity market have made their money and moved on. The price will slowly rise back up, hopefully before more damage is done to alternative energy's reputation. Because it's not for economic reasons that we really need it, remember? Anyone? Anyone? Crud, I hate talking to a vacuum.

 

[Tornado]

As for falling fuel prices, it's definitely not a good thing for our future.

What is good for the Camaro is good for America. Hell, the world.

 

[YSSMAN]

Its kinda sad when one company is essentially widdled down to three, maybe four cars, all from the same brand:

The Camaro, ZR1, Malibu and Cruze.

 

[Philly]

They'd probably keep a GMT-900 SUV and truck around, and a few crossovers. Oh, and the CTS and perhaps a couple other cars.

And the company would fall very quickly if the Camaro, ZR1, Malibu and Cruze were the only models. The former two would drag the whole place down very quickly.

 

[harrytuttle]

What is good for the Camaro is good for America. Hell, the world.

I'm guessing there's a whole lot of sarcasm there.

 

[YSSMAN]

Homework is Due!

The "Homework" for the Big Three is due tomorrow, December 2nd in Congress. This would be the time in which GM, Ford and Chrysler will attempt to show Congress how they would spend their share of the suggested $25 Billion in loans for the struggling automakers. Listening to NPR/Michigan Radio this morning, they are pushing around some of the rumors that are on the internet, particularly that of GM possibly dropping brands to cut cash.

Which ones?

Depends on who you talk to. The GMI boards are aflutter with different suggestions on what to do, but the consensus seems to be falling upon at least one brand to face the axe: Saturn. From there on, its a question of who you believe. I've read stories that suggest that Saab and Pontiac would be joining Saturn in a trip to the back of the shed, others suggest that it would only be Saturn to get cut. One interesting post on GMI centers on what I believe appears to be the most-likely to occur, GM minimizing itself to a Chevrolet-Buick-Cadillac regime as I had suggested earlier. Representing 82% of sales for GM in 2007, it makes sense. Too much, especially when so much "good" is going on for the other brands.

It will be interesting to see what happens, what brands or products get shifted around, or maybe its just the great "unknown." Either way, I look forward to seeing the plans unveiled... I believe they testify Tuesday in front of the House, Friday for the Senate. Or maybe its just Friday altogether. I can't remember...

 

[V1P3R]

I think it will go as well as Kalifornya saying they've balanced the state budget...

 

[buickgnx88]

If GM were smart, they'd try to market Saturn similar to Scion, in that it consists of smaller, and cheaper fuel-efficient cars.

 

[Tornado]

Why does GM insist on spending so much time and money on such a dead end brand? It is completely and totally irrational. Saturn makes infinitely more sense to keep then Buick ever has, even if GM is forced to give up Opel to the German government.

 

[V1P3R]

Why does GM insist on spending so much time and money on such a dead end brand? It is completely and totally irrational. Saturn makes infinitely more sense to keep then Buick ever has, even if GM is forced to give up Opel to the German government.

That's why anyone that says Saturn should go and a division like Hummer should stay are pretty much idiots and why GM is going down (if they do kill Saturn).

 

[Tornado]

Considering that mess going on in India with GM right now, I'd be highly amazed if Congress doesn't laugh GM's asses out of the Capitol. As stupid as they may be, I highly doubt that they would be willing to give GM a cent when one of the provisions (all of the money must be spent in America) has already been confirmed to be violated as soon as it passes through.

To hell with them. If they seriously don't even understand why a Chevrolet-Cadillac-Buick range is idiotic then there is no hope for the company at all. Give it a year or so and someone will pick up the pieces of the company and make it into something resembling intelligence, with none of the current management and employee problems that they have now. Then they can be turned around.

But tossing 25 billion dollars at them the way they are now (and, amazingly, have shown no signs of fixing) and we will only put off their death for two more years. 25 billion is an awful lot of taxpayer money to throw away just so the Camaro can come out, even if it would be the answer to America's current economic crisis.

 

[YSSMAN]

To hell with them. If they seriously don't even understand why a Chevrolet-Cadillac-Buick range is idiotic then there is no hope for the company at all.

I don't completely disagree with you, but as of now, its more or less a rumor. Presumably, GM wants to keep Buick on board because of the immensely strong sales in China, and while it isn't exactly the strongest brand in the US, positive attention in the press has done well for models like the Enclave. I'm still under the assumption that the importation of the Chinese-market Regal (LaCrosse) would do wonders to create sales here... But its hard to say if it would ever happen.

I'm personally concerned about the loss of Pontiac and Saturn, if the rumors are true, but I'm not worried. Both have significantly stronger products than ever before, but Pontiac is still being regulated to luxified Chevrolets, and Saab is still struggling to find the proper note in the American market. The loss of a G8 would be terrible, but it could easily be absorbed into the Chevrolet lineup (as a Chevelle? New Impala?). The 9-3 would be missed, but that can easily translate to a new Buick too...

We'll see what happens tomorrow (well, today now), I'm interested to hear what GM has up their sleeves.