The Carmagedonn Thread: FCA and "Consolidation"
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Currently, that is the plan... To coalesce both arms into a single, more-luxurious Buick. The first step forward will be our LaCrosse, which will likely be similar to the Chinese Regal (see below).
Other than that, it seems doubtful that we'd get the Park Avenue to replace the Lucerne (which is a good car, by the way), and obviously the Enclave is already a strong option in the crossover segment. I think the only thing Buick would need would be come kind of halo car, but that all depends on the future of Pontiac and Saturn.
Other than that, it seems doubtful that we'd get the Park Avenue to replace the Lucerne (which is a good car, by the way), and obviously the Enclave is already a strong option in the crossover segment. I think the only thing Buick would need would be come kind of halo car, but that all depends on the future of Pontiac and Saturn.
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buickgnx88
That's what it was at one point, and that is why old Saturns are the least desirable cars on the road today, and probably why GM can't sell any Saturns now.
Couldn't GM just keep Buick around as a China-only brand if they're not doing much in the states? GM already has other brands that operate solely in other markets.
They'll need to cut the in-house competition. Theoretically or in practice, Saturn and Saab compete, Cadillac and Buick compete and Pontiac and Chevrolet compete, or at least that's the impression I get. Perhaps sell Saab so they can go back to building decent cars, put Saturn away for a while, ship Buick off to another continent and put Pontiac away for a while? Unless they can find a good way to differentiate Buick and Cadillac more, as they seem to be stepping on each other's shoes some these days. Or combine some of the Buick lineup somehow into the Cadillac one.
Isn't that the Insignia? If Saturn was killed, I wonder if GM would just bring that over as a Buick. And isn't the Park Avenue a Zeta? That could keep a big Zeta sedan in the US. Or bring it over as a Lumina.
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Holy Cow! Big News Day!
First things first, new car sales were down across the board for every manufacturer. The big ones?
GM: -41%
Ford: -30%
Chrysler: -47%
Toyota: -34%
BMW: -27%
Honda: -32%
The only company with a gain? MINI, gaining 43% this past month.
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What is Detroit Going to Do?
Ford's Plan
- Profitability by 2011
- New electric car range by 2010
- Merge European models into American lineups
- Request $9BN credit line, don't need the money (yet)
- Warns that bankruptcy for GM or Chrysler will cause the same for Ford
Mullaly will be traveling to Washington via a Ford Escape Hybrid for the Thursday & Friday meetings with Congress...
GM's Plan
- Requests $12BN in loans by March
- Will Need $4BN ASAP
- Requests an extra $6BN credit line
- Plans to start re-paying loans by 2011
- Focus primarily on Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac and GMC
- Sell Saab and Hummer efforts
- Pontiac to become a "niche" brand
- Saturn to be killed or sold
- Renegotiate contracts with UAW
- Eliminate 30,000 jobs
Rick Wagoner will be driving to the meetings this week in a Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid.
Chrysler's Plan
- Requesting $7BN loan before the end of the year
- Requesting a $3.5BN credit line
- Will introduce 24 new, more fuel-efficent models by 2010
- Plans for growth in EV range, first models to be tested in 2009, on sale by 2010
Bob Nardeli will be traveling to Washington this week by commercial air.
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I heard about this article on NPR today, haven't had time to read it yet, but Dan Neil (LA Times) wants to nationalize GM.
EDIT:
The article is interesting, and poses a good question, but I'm uncertain if it would be the best idea. If GM thinks they can return to profitability that quick, repaying the loans by 2011 or 2012, the actual need for a nationalization otherwise falls by the wayside. I think the key point he wanted to make (talking about it on Hardball tonight) was that we need at least one big automaker in the US, and if we keep demanding that they make all of these "green" changes as quick as we like, none of the cars are going to be profitable for years (see the Prius)... And consequently, the bail out money goes nowhere. His estimation that GM can be purchased for less than $80BN, making it out to be a "steal" is interesting, but that shouldn't make nationalization the best choice.
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YSSMAN's Thoughts?
Its not overly surprising to see what kind of facts and figures are being thrown around, but clearly this is an unprecedented time for the automotive industry... No matter what company we're talking about. Perhaps the most-surprising thing is that Ford isn't asking for money, they just want to know they can get it if they need it. Ford, quite literally, is in far-better shape than I had expected.
As for GM, its worse than I thought. The immediate request for $4BN is strange, but they've got to start making cuts soon if they want to survive. The suggested removal of Saab and Saturn is a disappointment, but I'm happy about the Pontiac suggestion. Keep the strong models running (for now), and make some limited efforts to produce cars that truly are the sporty options to Buick and Chevrolet.
For Chrysler, it sounds like they're getting their stuff sorted out, despite generally being considered the worst of the three. Their timetable for EV cars is surprisingly good, considering how the "concepts" have been around for fewer than six months. I'm very surprised, and otherwise pleased by it.
We'll see what comes of all of this. It sounds like Pelosi will be pushing hard to get this through the House (should happen easily), but the Senate may be a bit more tricky to get sorted with.
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I think I'm going to move this thread into the "Cars in General" section. Although it will still contain a lot of news, we're now getting into policy stuff. That, and with the European and Japanese companies getting money, some of the other folks may have interesting things to add as well...
Joey D
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I think it's important to not that the Cooper's numbers are so high because the new R56's were just getting state side and it was insanely hard to meet demand with them. While I would still say their sales are up, I think 43% is a bit much. Probably something like 20% is more accurate.
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I've never really understood it either, to be frank. I seem to recall MINI telling us that they were "sold out" of 2008 models, and I know the local dealer here was only getting a handful to hold them over until 2009. That being said, with all of these high sales numbers, you'd think the cities would be crawling with them. I've maybe seen my MINI count go up fractionally, strangely most of them being Clubman S models, not much else.
My only guess for the high sales numbers is that because they're producing more, and the new model is better-accepted than the old, consequently their percentages are going to be higher compared to last year. Should the trend continue (but without an increase in production to meet demand), I'd suspect that next year's numbers will either be identical... Or lower.
My only guess for the high sales numbers is that because they're producing more, and the new model is better-accepted than the old, consequently their percentages are going to be higher compared to last year. Should the trend continue (but without an increase in production to meet demand), I'd suspect that next year's numbers will either be identical... Or lower.
Keef
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I'd suggest that there are so few MINIs out on the road that when their sales go up slightly it effects the whole scheme drastically. Coopers really are not common cars around here at all. It's mostly first-gen cars, and those caught on slowly. I see new ones occasionally. It seems like only a couple extra cars would send the local dealership's percentage increase through the roof.
I'd also suggest that the other car companies are all selling more small cars than they have in the past long while. But the other models are down so very much that it lowers the percentage drastically.
The local dealership just recently moved the Foci to the front row of their lot. Recently! WTH. Also, the Super Duty trucks are still there sharing the front row! YOU ARE NOT SELLING ANY GET THEM OUT OF MY SITE. And put the damn Focus and Fusion up front, you bad, bad businessman, you.
I'd also suggest that the other car companies are all selling more small cars than they have in the past long while. But the other models are down so very much that it lowers the percentage drastically.
The local dealership just recently moved the Foci to the front row of their lot. Recently! WTH. Also, the Super Duty trucks are still there sharing the front row! YOU ARE NOT SELLING ANY GET THEM OUT OF MY SITE. And put the damn Focus and Fusion up front, you bad, bad businessman, you.
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my opinion.
let thier friends, the oil companies, the ones who profited the most from the thirsty gas burning SUVs bail them out.
let em die. they have refused to innovate. have gone from just about owning the US car market, and then giving it up to first the japanese, then everyone else. remember the first ford taurus? back in 85 it was far ahead of the field. the second one, did exactly nothing. while its camry and accord competition not only grew significatly larger but improved dramatically. the fisheye taurus was just ford poking us in the eye with thier car.
splashing a truck in leather does not make it a luxury car. contrary to what the american public thinks. (dont even start, im driving an 05 navigator right now) its still a truck, a farmers implement. a trademans tool. id rather drive my 19 year old benz (300E) than the 'gator, any day. the lack of innovation and forward movement is what killed the big 3. dressing up the emperor in new clothes does not a better car make, but that is what they did for a long time.
let em die.
but since that wont happen.
saturn should die.
saab should be sold. or killed.
hummer should die/ only make military/ commercial vehicles.
GMC should die. completely extraneous.
buick/ pontiac should die.
cadillac should remain.but they need to step up thier game.
pontiac/ buick should concentrate on making tarted up chevys as lux, sporty versions.
chevy is standard models. everything from cars to trucks
mercury should die.
ford should keep doing what they are doing. fords car lineup is better suited to the future (euro focus is coming. futura is real nice. only the taurus fails in comparison to its competition.)
lincoln needs to seriously up its game. or die.
jeep needs to concentrate on trucks and four wheel drives. no more compass et al.
dodge needs to be everyman. but if you keep putting out crap like the current avenger, then you may as well die.
chrysler can be lux.
sell the hybrids only through the lux channels. you can charge more for a cadillac than a chevy.
but i seriously hope that they let em die.
im NOT for socialising bad business strategy. let the shareholders bear the burden. they own that.
my question to the automakers is this; what did they do with the billions in profits from the SUV craze, from mid nineties to early this year? i remember ford being the most profitable company in the late nineties due to its success with the explorer and expedition and super duty trucks. (i know about the firestone mess, but they kinda created that by making such a crappy car, didnt they?)
let thier friends, the oil companies, the ones who profited the most from the thirsty gas burning SUVs bail them out.
let em die. they have refused to innovate. have gone from just about owning the US car market, and then giving it up to first the japanese, then everyone else. remember the first ford taurus? back in 85 it was far ahead of the field. the second one, did exactly nothing. while its camry and accord competition not only grew significatly larger but improved dramatically. the fisheye taurus was just ford poking us in the eye with thier car.
splashing a truck in leather does not make it a luxury car. contrary to what the american public thinks. (dont even start, im driving an 05 navigator right now) its still a truck, a farmers implement. a trademans tool. id rather drive my 19 year old benz (300E) than the 'gator, any day. the lack of innovation and forward movement is what killed the big 3. dressing up the emperor in new clothes does not a better car make, but that is what they did for a long time.
let em die.
but since that wont happen.
saturn should die.
saab should be sold. or killed.
hummer should die/ only make military/ commercial vehicles.
GMC should die. completely extraneous.
buick/ pontiac should die.
cadillac should remain.but they need to step up thier game.
pontiac/ buick should concentrate on making tarted up chevys as lux, sporty versions.
chevy is standard models. everything from cars to trucks
mercury should die.
ford should keep doing what they are doing. fords car lineup is better suited to the future (euro focus is coming. futura is real nice. only the taurus fails in comparison to its competition.)
lincoln needs to seriously up its game. or die.
jeep needs to concentrate on trucks and four wheel drives. no more compass et al.
dodge needs to be everyman. but if you keep putting out crap like the current avenger, then you may as well die.
chrysler can be lux.
sell the hybrids only through the lux channels. you can charge more for a cadillac than a chevy.
but i seriously hope that they let em die.
im NOT for socialising bad business strategy. let the shareholders bear the burden. they own that.
my question to the automakers is this; what did they do with the billions in profits from the SUV craze, from mid nineties to early this year? i remember ford being the most profitable company in the late nineties due to its success with the explorer and expedition and super duty trucks. (i know about the firestone mess, but they kinda created that by making such a crappy car, didnt they?)
Joey D
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The dealer network is the biggest issue with them, Grand Rapids only just got a MINI dealer (at Sharpe right?) and before that people would have to go to the Chicago area to get one. You'll probably see more once 09's starting hitting our shores at a faster rate. The only problem is the Oxford plant is already running at max capacity and can't make any more then they already do. That's why it takes 12-14 weeks to get a MINI states side, although I was at the dealer yesterday and they were telling one buyer 9 weeks.
The numbers will stay the same, even more so if fuel prices spike again. The US is only going to get a set amount of cars per year and I imagine they will sell them all. Although the new drop top is coming out next year which could boost sales.
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Keef I'm surprised you don't see more MINI's in your area as their are two dealers, Midwestern MINI in Dublin and Cincinnati MINI in well Cincinnati.
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NATIONALIZE GM??!?!
that would have conservatives scream Communism in a new york minute!
Neadndertal: (they've dropped the haitch out of the word, now) Merc's been under the ax for at least 10 years allready.
Saturn was created in the first place to fight off the Japanese invasion, and now they're turning into rebadged Opels...I don't think they're going anywhere, soon.
Also, as I have been trying to tell you people, GMC is the commercial/utility version, and some people won't buy anything else.
*sigh* i reserve judgement on all automakers unill the necessary bridge is ready to be crossed.
that would have conservatives scream Communism in a new york minute!
Neadndertal: (they've dropped the haitch out of the word, now) Merc's been under the ax for at least 10 years allready.
Saturn was created in the first place to fight off the Japanese invasion, and now they're turning into rebadged Opels...I don't think they're going anywhere, soon.
Also, as I have been trying to tell you people, GMC is the commercial/utility version, and some people won't buy anything else.
*sigh* i reserve judgement on all automakers unill the necessary bridge is ready to be crossed.
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Doesn't matter, Sniffs. We've already nationalized banking. The dragon won't die until you chop off its head. (Or, its Fed, as it were.)
These corporate officer assholes should've been taking their hybrid transportation and $1 salaries before their companies became pieces of crap.
These corporate officer assholes should've been taking their hybrid transportation and $1 salaries before their companies became pieces of crap.
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I still think that's going to determine a lot of things for everyone in the next year or so, and that's why I'm so eager for these new economy cars from Ford and GM to get here, not to mention all of these electric vehicles that are in the pipe. I'm still under the impression that if GM or Chrysler can get these electric vehicles out the door for less than $40K, they'll sell all of them. Immediately. And probably not be able to keep up with demand. The only problem is that I don't think they'll make any money on them in the short-term.
We'll see I guess. Jennifer Granholm was on MSNBC today talking about the proceedings, and it sounded like she was ready to lay an egg. Its terrible when so much of the future in our state depends on this. Although it was interesting when she jumped on the "Hey, you need to realize that Ford doesn't want money" point. Ford still has me amazed as well.
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Two comments about GM's and Chrysler's plans. Why I GM keeping Pontiac around, and making it a niche brand? Niche cars don't sell all that much, and it doesn't seem like GM can support something like that too well. And it will need a major overhaul to make it the "sporty" Chevy that GM wants it to be. It just doesn't really add up.
And what is Chrysler's plan for offering 24 new fuel efficient vehicles in one year? There are 25 different models under the Chrysler umbrella right now. Do they plan to redesign every single Chrysler product in the next two years, and get them to market? How is that possible, for even the biggest automakers, and even if it was for Chrysler, where is this money?
And what is Chrysler's plan for offering 24 new fuel efficient vehicles in one year? There are 25 different models under the Chrysler umbrella right now. Do they plan to redesign every single Chrysler product in the next two years, and get them to market? How is that possible, for even the biggest automakers, and even if it was for Chrysler, where is this money?
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RE: Firestone mess... no, no... that's Firestone's fault for making such a crappy tire... what was wrong with the issue is that Ford refused to recognize the wrong tire choice and enforce a recall until way, way, waaaay too late...
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard a zombie say. I'm hoping that less than 10% of those 24 new models will be Tata or Chery cars.
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RE: Sales figures... note that VW dropped nearly 20% and Audi around 25... guess the free ride on their market expansion is over... Mini is... interesting... lots of rich guys wanting cool cars but can't afford gas? Note the other niche players selling primarily small cars, Suzuki and Kia, are down around 30-40%. I guess making expensive, fuel efficient vehicles is very profitable, right now... (despite the small volumes)... time for Chevrolet to produce Aveo de Luxe editions to take advantage of the market...
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard a zombie say. I'm hoping that less than 10% of those 24 new models will be Tata or Chery cars.
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RE: Sales figures... note that VW dropped nearly 20% and Audi around 25... guess the free ride on their market expansion is over... Mini is... interesting... lots of rich guys wanting cool cars but can't afford gas? Note the other niche players selling primarily small cars, Suzuki and Kia, are down around 30-40%. I guess making expensive, fuel efficient vehicles is very profitable, right now... (despite the small volumes)... time for Chevrolet to produce Aveo de Luxe editions to take advantage of the market...
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So, from 5 cars in September to 4 cars in December.
So, I was looking over GMs official plans. All I can say is WTF. Shutter Saturn after finally getting a competent automobile range, along with meaningful sales number? Keeping Buick? Dismantling Pontiac until they have Buick-like sales? Why in hell are we giving GM any money whatsoever? I'm tempted to pull out the Joey Card and simply never buy a new GM vehicle again. Seriously, they are on my last nerve with their incompetence. And burning through over $2 billion a month means we will have to deal with their idiocy come August. I'm not even sure that I'd care if they went into Chapter 7, because then someone would probably come along and scoop up the brands that did make rational sense.
On the other front: Poor Ford. Finally selling off the final (and the only one with any real merit when purchased) piece of PAG must be hard on Jacques Nasser. But hey, someone had to spend the $20 billion on Land Rover/Aston Martin/Jaguar in order to make them relevant without expecting to see a profit. For some reason, ironically enough, I'm glad they aren't ditching Mercury.
Now, over to poor maladjusted Chrysler: I'm conflicted. One part of me is glad that they got the money, considering their entire origin of their woes stem from Dr. Z. On the other hand, I'm kinda miffed that we handed money to Chrysler on the pretext that they would go bankrupt when they are in fact a subsidiary of a company that made over $100 billion last year.
Especially dubious considering they killed two models this month.Philly
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Hmm... I was just talking to a friend and he said... "Y'Know, Chrysler doesn't really need that money as much as GM or Ford... they're just saying: "hey, since everyone else is getting some..." I didn't really understand that statement until you reminded me of the ownership fact... hmmm...
I'm still hopeful about Ford's European arm surviving... they're the only branch of Ford I actually care about...
...particularly since I'm looking at buying a Focus next year.
Rotary Junkie
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blatantly untrue.
exactly.
3 pronged problem. literally a perfect storm of slight problems coalescing into a much larger one.
the "defective" tire was used on many other vehicles with no problems. i specifically remember toyota T100s coming with that tire as an OE tire. so NOT a tire problem
the car didnt exhibit the same problem with equivalent goodyear OE tires. so not a vehicle problem per se.
morons not checking their tire pressures before loading their vehicles/ going on long trips. people who did so reported "significantly fewer" tire issues/ blowouts (there will always be some in any population of tires thanks to road debris, hitting kerbs etc) so drivers not infallible. ive seen tires at 10- 12psi, they only look just a little low on some cars.
ford gets blamed because they based the explorer on the old bronco II/ ranger frame even though it was longer, taller, wider, heavier. they changed (lowered) the air pressure when they discovered the proclivity of that model to roll over. they didnt notify firestone, who could have redesigned the tire to improve its load capacity at lower air pressure.
firestone did make some defective tires. thats why there was a recall.
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My inclination?
Pontiac will be a brand limited to something like two to four models, presumably sold through what is left of the Buick-Pontiac-GMC network. That means that redundancy is finished, which my guess is that it puts the G3 (ie, Chevrolet Aveo with a new nose) plans on ice. This presumably means that we'd see their range limited to the G8, Solstice, and maybe that long-promised RWD G6 based on the Alpha architecture.
GM's plan to restructure their brands is an idea that needed to happen, I don't think anyone debates that. The problem is that they're walking a thin line by pissing off a lot of GM fans by killing brands outright.
That, as far as I can tell, has been a part of the Cerberus plan for the past year or so. The DaimlerChrysler years had been so detrimental to product development that they've invested hundreds of millions of dollars to essentially "re-do" the interiors of almost every model, re-engineering some of the questionable quality and design issues, essentially making all-new vehicles.
The big part of those 24 vehicles according to what I've heard today? Hybrid Ram, their EV program, among others...
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Today's News
The UAW has made some concessions to the possibility of a new plan, agreeing to meet at the table again for some re-negotiations. Presumably a good move, as their legacy costs are killing the bottom line.
Rick Wagoner took the time today to demonstrate the Volt in Washington, which was a good move. It was mentioned early on in the meeting today by Senator Dodd, and I see that as a good sign. We'll see what the others say.
Apparently GM and Chrysler are warming to a Federally "Padded" Bankruptcy if the funds become unavailable. I'm not opposed to an idea like this, but I'm extremely cautious overall. They're also suggesting doing a '79-like oversight board if the companies are to get the money, which seems like an interesting idea.
...So far the testimony has been pretty uneventful, perhaps a bit more realistic than it was two weeks ago...
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I don't think so, no. But what advantages does that particular lineup have? You have in the past said that a lineup similar to that is what would be best, and the GMI folks said the same thing. Now with it being confirmed by GM, I simply want to know why everyone thinks that a Buick-Caddy-Chevy plan is better than a Saturn-Caddy-Chevy plan or a Pontiac-Caddy-Chevy plan. Its like I missed a memo or something.
Honestly, though, when it comes to some of Chrysler's cars (the old Ram, 300C and its derivatives, the Caravan, Nitro), the only thing keeping them from being in near the top of their class was interior quality. Naturally, the Sebring will never win any positive awards, nor will the Caliber. But some of the cars were pretty good except on the inside.
But Chrysler can't go bankrupt. Surely the brilliant minds in Congress realize this.
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That doesn't exactly sound like an overly profitable plan for Pontiac. It won't cost them that much to execute, seeing that there won't be much development needed, but neither the G8 nor the Solstice seem to be flying off lots in significant numbers. And hopefully a RWD G6 wouldn't step on other car's shoes too much. While I think seeing a legitimate sporty Pontiac would be really great, but not during a downturn in the industry. And I don't think congress would look too favorably at this plan.
I do think that instead of killing the brands, they should just temporarily just take them off the market or something and bring them back later when there is a demand for those kinda of products. Although I still think they should axe HUMMER and sell Saab to somebody who can make decent cars again that people will want to buy.
I had a feeling that it would be either small overhauls or introducing new powertrain options to current vehicles or a merger with somebody else. Either way, Chrysler needs a lot of work so hopefully they'll get done what they need to.
It's good to see that the UAW is willing to make concessions too. Hopefully they'll be able to make enough to not bring the three down too much. And hopefully they'll learn from their mistakes and not just put everything back into place and set the companies up for failure again.
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I'm assuming that between the Chinese market, the history of the Buick brand, and the planned addition of what would otherwise be Saab models with Buick badges makes them want to keep the brand around. Generally speaking, I assume more Americans would be able to identify with Buick as a brand versus Saturn. Although you can take your pick if you prefer "cars for old people" against "tiny plastic cars."
The problem is, at least for me, is that GM hasn't completely solidified their plan as to how they're going to streamline the brands with global models (think of Ford). The plan was to have Saturn as the Opel/Vauxhall brand, but everyone else is getting the new products. It still sounds like they want to make Pontiac the American arm of Holden, God knows how well that'll work. If they can integrate the American and Chinese arms of Buick, I think that is a very solid option.
Joey D
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For those that think only Michigan will fail if the Big Three go under.
http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/stateautoworkers/index.html
Every single state, including Alaska and Hawaii will be affected in some way, shape or form.
http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/stateautoworkers/index.html
Every single state, including Alaska and Hawaii will be affected in some way, shape or form.
