the Espy awards

[Joey D]

It has everything to do with the Espy awards, since they gave a special one to Jenner.

Yes, Jenner's award and whether or not she derserved it is on par with this thread. Her new TV show isn't, since they haven't even addressed the award in the show yet.

I can only go by the promotional material on this one, because I don't get the channel that broadcasts "I Am Cait", but from what I have seen so far, the underlying theme is not speaking out for the transgender community, but that Caitlin Jenner is the one doing it. Any benefit to the transgender community is a happy accident - it's another egocentic "reality" show. And given Jenner's position as a celebrity, the show will only ever view transgender issues through the lens of celebrity; it won't address the pain and the confusion and the uncertainty and the difficulties that ordinary transgender people face, because Jenner hasn't experienced them and is unlikely to.

Jenner reminds me of a girl I used to work with when I was working casually. She had graduated top of her class, came highly recommended, and was guaranteed to find a job even with relative inexperience and a competitive market. It was only a matter of time. Meanwhile, the other casuals and I swapped notes on various schools and shared strategies on how to get more work. It was a long, hard slog; very stressful and very time consiming. Every time this girl took part in our discussions, she would say "oh, you just do this, this, this, this and this" (most of which we were already doing), and seemed surprised that we faced difficulties because it was always so easy for her. Jenner is the same - coming to terms with her gender was no doubt difficult for her to do, but given her position, it was almost certainly far easier for her than for most. And since she has no knowledge or experience of the issues ordinary people face, that makes her a poor candidate ambassador. Her celebrity doesn't make up for her inexperience.

I think you are missing the mark because that's not what the show is about at all. In fact they are already addressing the fact Jenner doesn't really know what it's like to be part of the "average" transgender community. Jenner is actively sharing other's stories and it shows the struggle she is dealing with to try to actively relate to them. In the first episode, she explored the issue of teenage transgenders committing suicide and reached out to the mother of a 14 year old transgender male who committed suicide because they couldn't take the bullying anymore. In the second episode Jenner is bring together transgender women who all have different experiences and are helping introduce her to those who are probably more of the "norm" when it comes to those who are transgender themselves. So far it's touched on how many transgender women end up doing sex work, how they can't find employment, and how hard it is to find medical care.

It's pretty clear Jenner wants to do good and do what she can to try and help the transgender community be in a more positive light. Whether or not the show will achieve that is yet to be seen, but I think as far as transgender people go, Jenner is probably one the most well known and has a better chance at making that happen. Sure, the TV show is still entertainment, but it's still informative. I knew very little about transgender people prior to the show and the main reason I'm watching it is to learn more. Since I really don't have anyone else who knows anything about the subject, the show will have to suffice, which I think many people are probably doing as well.

 

[LeMansAid]

Ever notice how often I "fluke a semblance of truth"? How many times do I have to do it before it stops being a fluke and stops being a semblance?

You're getting a bit excited there. I followed that with "I don't know". Do you need me to explain why then the line you coveted, in context, means absolutely nothing?

I can't imagine how large amounts of financial wealth and 30 some odd years of idol worship from being a gold medal Olympiad could possibly affect how to deal with a life changing personal crisis. Surely any regular person going through gender identity issues can have their agent pick up the phone to work out a deal to be given a televised sports award in order to provide advertising lead in for their upcoming TV show that was put into motion following the big publicity that came from a manslaughter case.

So........ money. That's it? That's the silver bullet? Ahhh, I suppose that's why people with money never suicide, right? Great logic.

Or is it fame? Is that why Caitlyn got a "free ride"? I think that the old "Money gives one freedom. Fame takes it away" applies somewhat here. But that retracted "freedom" is not a freedom from loneliness, or a freedom from doubt, or fear, or regret, anyway.

When it all boils down, the same same things that torture the common (wo)man, torture the celebrity. I'm happy that she has the money to try and make her body in to something that she might be at ease with - but I fear that just as anorexia sufferers will tend to never be thin enough for their liking, Caitlyn will never be happy with her body or herself, despite having the money to potentially endlessly try on a physical level.

 

[Tornado]

Great logic.

Your logic being faulty when you try and pretend others used it is no problem of mine.

Is that why Caitlyn got a "free ride"?

 

[LeMansAid]

Your logic being faulty when you try and pretend others used it is no problem of mine.

Correct me if I shouldn't have taken your post as sarcasm. Otherwise, can you point to where you outlined the advantages that Jenner has, that don't ultimately amount to anything other than money or fame?.

 

[Tornado]

Otherwise, can you point to where you outlined the advantages that Jenner has, that don't ultimately amount to anything other than money or fame?.

Sure. Once you point out where I said, or even implied, Caitlyn Jenner got a "free ride." I'm not particularly interested in arguing against the strawman you're attempting to build.

 

[Pupik]

I don't understand why anyone thinks the "Espy Award" has any sort of meaning besides its very obvious gold-plating. It's a self-serving award show for a self-serving network. The award is handed out by a cable network which cares nothing but for trends of the moment and whatever its programming (and its sponsors) suggests is of importance. If another channel such as Fox News, TLC, or NBC Sports had its own awards, nobody would care, but for some some Estonian-built web crawling aggregator. It's just as unimportant.

So what if someone changes what they look like? I don't get the "courage" factor. Despite the looming over-importance of the world of sport has in our lives, it's largely a male-dominated set of games for which, like news and entertainment, caters to a lowest common denominator whenever possible, which means 99% of the phraseology and analytics have to be tinged in some sort of testosterone for it to be meaningful. For an ex-athlete to become transgender is pretty much unheard of in the world of sport. The forgotten part is that Jenner has the money to do it.

There's probably thousands of others who can't do the same, either insurance doesn't cover it, or there's no means for it...thus, is it really courageous?

 

[LeMansAid]

Sure. Once you point out where I said, or even implied, Caitlyn Jenner got a "free ride." I'm not particularly interested in arguing against the strawman you're attempting to build.

Sixty sixes and ninety nines have more uses than literal quoting. I never meant to imply that you actually wrote that.

Now can you?

 

[Tornado]

Sixty sixes and ninety nines have more uses than literal quoting. I never meant to imply that you actually wrote that.

Yes you did. Your entire post was a response to points I hadn't actually made; as it was when you first attacked Interludes over the issue. I never said, nor implied, Caitlyn Jenner got a pass simply because of who Bruce Jenner was; so your rant about how celebrities still have personal demons to wrestle with is meaningless (and something Interludes even stated outright to be the case). I never said, nor implied, that Caitlyn Jenner got a pass simply because how much money she had, so the trite zinger about rich people committing suicide is meaningless. What I actually implied was that her specific situation would make her experience dramatically different from a typical transgendered person because why the hell wouldn't it? And I did so against your quite frankly laughable insinuation that celebrity life has no effect on personal crises, even at the time strawmanned as if Interludes simply said that Caitlyn Jenner had no struggles at all because she was a celebrity.
Is Caitlyn Jenner going to become homeless, or fired from her job, or physically forced out of a women's bathroom, or denied medical care for political and/or financial reasons, or shunned by her friends and family, or be found murdered in an alleyway? Those are the kind of things that are the big rallying points against anti-transgender discrimination, and all those seem an awfully lot like things that someone with a lot of money and lots of public attention won't have to face to anywhere near the extent as a regular person, if at all. The suicide percentage numbers that keep getting trotted out (at times almost seemingly as an attempt to stifle dissuading opinions rather than debate what they are actually saying) certainly paint those specifically as pretty huge stressors that lead to suicide attempts (even listed by name in the link Noob posted a couple pages ago), so why is it that saying that someone who most won't experience any of the above doesn't have experience with any of the above issues "utter, utter rubbish"?



So, again, if you would actually like to debate whether or not Caitlyn Jenner being rich and famous and having a TV show will cause her to have experiences out of tune with a regular person, go right ahead. Joey D's posts have put a spin on the show that I hadn't originally expected the show would be tackling. But this garbage:

I can understand why children would assume that celebrity life is fun and easy

Ahhh, I suppose that's why people with money never suicide, right?

Is that why Caitlyn got a "free ride"?

Isn't actually an attempt on your part to do so, and I'm not interested in arguing points that no one is actually making just because you want to put on your outraged face.

 

[LeMansAid]

Hehe.... "Interludes". Good old auto correct, I assume.

Yes you did. Your entire post was a response to points I hadn't actually made; as it was when you first attacked Interludes over the issue. I never said, nor implied, Caitlyn Jenner got a pass simply because of who Bruce Jenner was; so your rant about how celebrities still have personal demons to wrestle with is meaningless (and something Interludes even stated outright to be the case). I never said, nor implied, that Caitlyn Jenner got a pass simply because how much money she had, so the trite zinger about rich people committing suicide is meaningless. What I actually implied was that her specific situation would make her experience dramatically different from a typical transgendered person because why the hell wouldn't it? And I did so against your quite frankly laughable insinuation that celebrity life has no effect on personal crises, even at the time strawmanned as if Interludes simply said that Caitlyn Jenner had no struggles at all because she was a celebrity.
Is Caitlyn Jenner going to become homeless, or fired from her job, or physically forced out of a women's bathroom, or denied medical care for political and/or financial reasons, or shunned by her friends and family, or be found murdered in an alleyway? Those are the kind of things that are the big rallying points against anti-transgender discrimination, and all those seem an awfully lot like things that someone with a lot of money and lots of public attention won't have to face to anywhere near the extent as a regular person, if at all. The suicide percentage numbers that keep getting trotted out (at times almost seemingly as an attempt to stifle dissuading opinions rather than debate what they are actually saying) certainly paint those specifically as pretty huge stressors that lead to suicide attempts, so why is it that saying that someone who most won't experience any of the above doesn't have experience with any of the above issues "utter, utter rubbish"?



So, again, if you would actually like to debate whether or not Caitlyn Jenner being rich and famous and having a TV show will cause her to have experiences out of tune with a regular person, go right ahead. Joey D's posts have put a spin on the show that I hadn't originally expected the show would be tackling. But this garbage:



Isn't actually an attempt on your part to do so, and I'm not interested in arguing points that no one is actually making just because you want to put on your outraged face.

I bolded the part where I think you certainly ask fair questions, but I maintain that the core issues that most if not all trans people face will reside equally in Caitlyn. I think they'll be better off with rather than without a high profile person championing.

However, maybe I've over personalised this. It might be hitting some raw nerves.

Bare in mind though, that the genesis of this current discussion was.....

And given Jenner's position as a celebrity, the show will only ever view transgender issues through the lens of celebrity; it won't address the pain and the confusion and the uncertainty and the difficulties that ordinary transgender people face, because Jenner hasn't experienced them and is unlikely to.

I make no apology for having an emotional response to these uninformed and dismissive words.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I make no apology for having an emotional response to these uninformed and dismissive words.

Funny, given that "uninformed" and "dismissive" are the two words that I would use to describe about 90% of your posts. You don't actually contribute anything - you just try and undermine people that you disagree with.

 

[LeMansAid]

Funny, given that "uninformed" and "dismissive" are the two words that I would use to describe about 90% of your posts. You don't actually contribute anything - you just try and undermine people that you disagree with.

You don't know as fact, what you posted as fact. It shouldn't be any surprise that someone took umbrage, especially with it being an emotive issue.

I hope that others disagree with you about what I put in to my posts. If you are anywhere near correct, I'll be very disappointed in myself.

 

[Ialyrn]

And given Jenner's position as a celebrity, the show will only ever view transgender issues through the lens of celebrity; it won't address the pain and the confusion and the uncertainty and the difficulties that ordinary transgender people face, because Jenner hasn't experienced them and is unlikely to.

To me this particular sentence comes across as utter diatribe. The fact of the matter is this, Caitlyn Jenner will have to go through much of the same rubbish as myself and other trans folk do, even with her money and fame. Sure, she doesn't have to worry about losing her job or home. But there are plenty of things she will feel emotional pain over. And be worried, scared and confused about that relate to her transition from male to female. Having money does not relegate someone from the emotional turmoils of life, Just have to look towards someone like Robin Williams (rest in peace), who took his own life because of depression. With Caitlyn been trans, that will add in its own set of emotional issues also.

She will have to worry very much in regards to things such as bathroom use and so on. Regardless of her fame here, some American states (from what I understand) and other country's have laws prohibiting a trans person from using the bathroom connecting to the gender they are. Just look at how many legal battles are currently been fought in this regard in the USA alone. Thankfully I live in the UK, where I am legally regarded as female with all the rights and protections that any woman has. I still do not use public bathrooms however, because we still very much face the risks of verbal abuse and physical assaults in them from non understanding members of the public.

And regardless of the money Caitlyn has, she will still have to worry about medical care, and where to go for it. Lets not forget here, that people who are against trans folk like myself and Caitlyn, they do not care how much money we do or don't have. Medical staff can be just a prejudiced as the general public. There are general practitioners (Family Doctors) here in the UK who still refuse to prescribe HRT for trans folk, even though things are fairly well accepted in the government. And also in the NHS in general, with dedicated facility's in place for things regarding gender. The GP's, who happen to be in charge of prescribing the medications and keeping track of our health there after often outright refuse. The first doctor I saw was like this, but luckily I was able to see a different doctor at the same surgery, and he put me on HRT straight away. And started an investigation against his own colleague for malpractice.

Then there are also the feelings of guilt, the worry that you are doing the right thing, and all the other personal things. These are also things that Caitlyn will have to face, and is doing so currently. Then there are the people who are against all of this, slinging over verbal abuse and so forth. Perhaps not as much in public, but she is over the internet and certain media outlets.

Her money and fame may make things easy for her, but she will still have to deal with the same stuff that I do with most things related to trans issues.

@Tornado @LeMansAid (Tagged, as you are all part of the current discussion in this thread)

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Only if you assume that being transgender is the only variable in her life.

 

[Ken]

I doubt very highly that Caitlyn well have to face the same struggles going forward. Her celebrity will afford her that. I'm not saying she won't face struggles, but I am saying that I firmly believe they won't be the same as others facing the struggle.

 

[Johnnypenso]

To me this particular sentence comes across as utter diatribe. The fact of the matter is this, Caitlyn Jenner will have to go through much of the same rubbish as myself and other trans folk do, even with her money and fame. Sure, she doesn't have to worry about losing her job or home. But there are plenty of things she will feel emotional pain over. And be worried, scared and confused about that relate to her transition from male to female. Having money does not relegate someone from the emotional turmoils of life, Just have to look towards someone like Robin Williams (rest in peace), who took his own life because of depression. With Caitlyn been trans, that will add in its own set of emotional issues also.

Financial freedom alone guarantees that Cait won't have the same experiences that most trans folk do. No worries about working, losing your house, pissing off or embarassing your boss, expenses etc. In fact, Cait is literally being paid exhorbitant sums of money to share her transition, while many trans folks go broke or nearly so trying to pay for everything.

She will have to worry very much in regards to things such as bathroom use and so on. Regardless of her fame here, some American states (from what I understand) and other country's have laws prohibiting a trans person from using the bathroom connecting to the gender they are. Just look at how many legal battles are currently been fought in this regard in the USA alone. Thankfully I live in the UK, where I am legally regarded as female with all the rights and protections that any woman has. I still do not use public bathrooms however, because we still very much face the risks of verbal abuse and physical assaults in them from non understanding members of the public.

Money has a way of resolving these bathroom issues as well. When Cait waltzes into a flashy Hollywood bistro with her entourage, do you really think they are going to deny her her bathroom of choice and risk being shamed and marginalized on social media? Not a chance, it could literally destroy their business. That's not to say it won't happen somewhere but even then, one little tweet or facebook update and the entire world knows that Joe's Seafood in Turdbottom, Florida hates the LGBT community and it will surely have an impact on their business and not in a good way.

And regardless of the money Caitlyn has, she will still have to worry about medical care, and where to go for it. Lets not forget here, that people who are against trans folk like myself and Caitlyn, they do not care how much money we do or don't have. Medical staff can be just a prejudiced as the general public. There are general practitioners (Family Doctors) here in the UK who still refuse to prescribe HRT for trans folk, even though things are fairly well accepted in the government. And also in the NHS in general, with dedicated facility's in place for things regarding gender. The GP's, who happen to be in charge of prescribing the medications and keeping track of our health there after often outright refuse. The first doctor I saw was like this, but luckily I was able to see a different doctor at the same surgery, and he put me on HRT straight away. And started an investigation against his own colleague for malpractice.

In the U.S., money buys you all the medical care you need and the best available. Cait won't be picking out doctors from the Yellow Pages, she'll be going to the best of the best, those that cater to trans people and have the best reputation. Not having to worry about how much it costs only alleviates that burden further.

Then there are also the feelings of guilt, the worry that you are doing the right thing, and all the other personal things. These are also things that Caitlyn will have to face, and is doing so currently. Then there are the people who are against all of this, slinging over verbal abuse and so forth. Perhaps not as much in public, but she is over the internet and certain media outlets.

The feelings of guilt arise in part from the effect it is having on those around you. From what I've read, Cait has the full support of everyone around her. Not saying it's a cakewalk, I'm sure she'll have things to worry about, but it literally is about as good as it's going to get. Sure some in the social media are boobs but that goes for literally anything and any topic.

 

[FoolKiller]

I'll sum my thoughts up like this:

Caitlyn Jenner has as much in common with the average transgendered American as Magic Johnson has in common with the average American with HIV/AIDs.

The disease is the same, the symptoms are the same, the treatment won't be remotely close.


As for the TV show: At first it would feel more genuine if it were focused on a random transgendered individuals, or multiple individuals, from across America. But then the difference would really be Honey Boo Boo vs. The Kardashians. At the end of the day, it is still reality TV, over-edited to create a narrative that likely doesn't exist.

 

[LeMansAid]

Caitlyn Jenner has as much in common with the average transgendered American as Magic Johnson has in common with the average American with HIV/AIDs.

The disease is the same, the symptoms are the same, the treatment won't be remotely close.

Or is it more like comparing rich/famous and non-rich/non-famous anorexia sufferers?

Vast difference, I think. With many diseases, you just fight it best you can, that's it. In some cases money will be a great help - but these are battles both for and against self. Just as the one person will never be thin enough, Jenner will quite possibly never be "woman enough" - and I'm confident that you know that the cosmetics that money can buy are a very small part of convincing oneself.

I don't think that yours is an apt or fair comparison, and that trans/anorexic haves and have nots share much more with each other than those who battle outer rather than inner demons.

Edit - Why the need to judge this anyway? Ordinary trans people will take what they can from Jenner's experience. Simple as that. I don't see why there's a need to sully it by pigeon holing what Jenner has/will suffer, and on levels she will/won't be able to relate.

 

[FoolKiller]

Why is it that when it comes to mental health you instantly assume money can't buy better treatment?

LA has treatment centers for mental health, drug rehab, and other non-direct medical issues that will cost more to visit for a week than an average year's worth of treatment in somewhere like Kentucky.

To think that money can only buy her better cosmetics is ridiculous. She has access to better therapy, if there are any drugs or hormones that work more effectively she likely will have access to those, and any surgeries she chooses to undergo will be performed by the best in the business, so that it will be virtually undetectable.


And when is it being judgmental to say that you do think someone with better access to money will have better access to health care. It's just a fact in the US. We have a whole thread on it.

 

[LeMansAid]

To think that money can only buy her better cosmetics is ridiculous.

Fortunate for me that I didn't state that then. I referred to the factor of money buying cosmetics (including surgeries) being potentially null - rather than cosmetics being the only thing that money can buy.

LA has treatment centers for mental health, drug rehab, and other non-direct medical issues that will cost more to visit for a week than an average year's worth of treatment in somewhere like Kentucky.

Expensive equals better? Certainly not in my experience. I recently had my long time psychiatrist retire. The replacement is significantly more expensive, but offers vapid and un-insightful treatment in comparison. Surely we need to acknowledge that there's a no pain, no gain dynamic to mental health treatment, and that happiness does not equate to healing. Some people might be willing to have an extraordinarily expensive "best friend", but it doesn't mean that there's any substantial health advancements. There's a fair motivation to actually avoiding advancement....... it hurts like hell, and cripples with fear.

And when is it being judgmental to say that you do think someone with better access to money will have better access to health care.

I was asking "Why the need to judge her credentials as a role model, or figurehead?", since that's where this line of discussion originated. If Caitlyn inspired negatives, I could understand - but at break even or better - I don't see the need to judge at all.

 

[FoolKiller]

Fortunate for me that I didn't state that then. I referred to the factor of money buying cosmetics (including surgeries) being potentially null - rather than cosmetics being the only thing that money can buy.

And the way you stated it sounds like you think that is all that money can buy. Maybe when you said:

In some cases money will be a great help - but these are battles both for and against self.

you didn't mean that the money won't make a difference in her struggle.

Expensive equals better?

Not always, but more money will gain you access to the better care, particularly when you can hire people to help you find the best that there is. But ultimately the best in the business will very likely be one of the most expensive.

Certainly not in my experience.

Last I checked, you live in a different country with a different healthcare system. If you recently moved to LA, please inform us so that we understand where your experience comes from.

I recently had my long time psychiatrist retire. The replacement is significantly more expensive, but offers vapid and un-insightful treatment in comparison.

Um, find a new psychiatrist, I guess. If patients leave due to higher costs with less positive results he/she will have to change his/her methods or pricing.

Surely we need to acknowledge that there's a no pain, no gain dynamic to mental health treatment, and that happiness does not equate to healing. Some people might be willing to have an extraordinarily expensive "best friend", but it doesn't mean that there's any substantial health advancements. There's a fair motivation to actually avoiding advancement....... it hurts like hell, and cripples with fear.

Since I never defined what I think a better outcome would be, I have no response to this, as I fail to see how it pertains to the discussion.

I was asking "Why the need to judge her credentials as a role model, or figurehead?", since that's where this line of discussion originated.

Well, since I didn't do that I will let those who did respond.

 

[LeMansAid]

Well, since I didn't do that I will let those who did respond.

It appeared logical to me that you were commenting on the specific line of discussion that had arisen, as you begun with "I'll sum my thoughts up like this:" - especially considering that you had already commented in the thread previously, but not since this specific discussion begun. Still a fair call though on an incorrect assumption of mine.

There's a convenient analogy in talking about different types of treatment. Just as the ESPYs are a popularity contest, the mental health business could be seen as similar. When Jennner won the gold medal for the decathlon, it was purely statistical - while winning the ESPY, it was anything but. Similarly, success in bodily medicine is statistical and hard results will drive who gets business, while mental health care is open to easily becoming equal to a popularity contest. The patient decides who succeeded, but may do so with very flawed logic - especially since happy doesn't necessarily equal health. So....

Since I never defined what I think a better outcome would be, I have no response to this, as I fail to see how it pertains to the discussion.

You kinda did, when you equated the treatment that Magic Johnson can pay for to the treatment that Caitlyn Jenner can pay for. Hard results will define the level of success for Johnson's money - not so with Jenner's. Surely you can see that, and therefore how it's a lesser comparison to others on offer?

 

[FoolKiller]

You kinda did, when you equated the treatment that Magic Johnson can pay for to the treatment that Caitlyn Jenner can pay for. Hard results will define the level of success for Johnson's money - not so with Jenner's. Surely you can see that, and therefore how it's a lesser comparison to others on offer?

Access to better treatment does not equal better outcomes. In both cases, Johnson and Jenner, there is a human factor. How the person being treated approaches their treatment has a large effect on the outcome. We see it all the time when one celebrity goes into some expensive rehab clinic and walks out three weeks later clean as a bird and others will use the same rehab center but keep going in and out, or come out but go straight back to their old behaviors and eventually wind up dead.

Magic Johnson's doctors will tell you that one of the secrets to Magic's success was Magic. He supposedly did everything he should do to help himself. I've seen mental health patients who don't take therapy seriously, don't follow their medicine regimen properly, and will engage in self-destructive or risky behavior.

I don't define what the better outcome for transgender issues are because I don't know enough about it to know. Perhaps the best outcome is converting their body into the identity they feel they are (I feel like I butchered that description) or maybe the best outcome could actually be helping them come to terms and accept with their birth gender. I don't know. I do know that it is now seen as a physical health issue, so chances are that mental health treatments are merely to treat the symptoms until medical science finds a way to address the physical aspects. The fact that depression and other mental issues are symptoms creates a complexity in what an outcome should be. We don't have a physical cure, so the best outcomes we can hope for are dealing with the mental issues it creates and I can' tell you what the best outcome should be for anyone dealing with those issues. I doubt many mental health professionals can.

 

[LeMansAid]

Magic Johnson's doctors will tell you that one of the secrets to Magic's success was Magic. He supposedly did everything he should do to help himself. I've seen mental health patients who don't take therapy seriously, don't follow their medicine regimen properly, and will engage in self-destructive or risky behavior.

If we're going to use Magic Johnson as a comparison, shouldn't the counterpart be an equitable version? Someone that is diligent with all of the physical things that they can do to work towards improving their mental health? Problem is, it's fine while it's just "Take your medication" and whatnot, but what of a "Be vulnerable" on the "to do" list? I doubt that anything like that would have been asked of Johnson, but there's every chance that it's required of Jenner for effective treatment. Sure, it's a process - those with mental health issues can work and work an work towards vulnerability, but may still never reach that state within their lifetime. So the real treatment, in a sense, only begins in earnest once the patient has reached a point that they may never reach. For others it's just "Take the drugs, and do the deeds", and the treatment mandate is satiated.

I do know that it is now seen as a physical health issue, so chances are that mental health treatments are merely to treat the symptoms until medical science finds a way to address the physical aspects.

If that "cure" proves to be prohibitively expensive, then people in Jenner's position will certainly have an advantage. Right now though she's stuck with trying to somehow magically (see what I did there?) be at peace with who she is, was, and will be - just as poorer trans people are.

 

[FoolKiller]

If we're going to use Magic Johnson as a comparison, shouldn't the counterpart be an equitable version? Someone that is diligent with all of the physical things that they can do to work towards improving their mental health? Problem is, it's fine while it's just "Take your medication" and whatnot, but what of a "Be vulnerable" on the "to do" list? I doubt that anything like that would have been asked of Johnson, but there's every chance that it's required of Jenner for effective treatment.

Describe "be vulnerable." Jenner could have disappeared and no one would have noticed. Her biggest claim to fame pre-Kardashians was before I was born.

Johnson was a public figure at a time when HIV/AIDS was controversial in this country. It was a gay disease or something you got as a result of bad behavior. You think that didn't affect Johnson, that no one said things about him publicly, and that he just disappeared?

Sure, it's a process - those with mental health issues can work and work an work towards vulnerability, but may still never reach that state within their lifetime. So the real treatment, in a sense, only begins in earnest once the patient has reached a point that they may never reach. For others it's just "Take the drugs, and do the deeds", and the treatment mandate is satiated.

Why do you think that someone with a medical condition that was essentially a death sentence at the time Johnson was diagnosed had no mental health issues with it? He went from being one of the top athletes in his sport, a specimen of physical excellence, and was told that his body will likely kill him. Trust me, when I tell you that dealing with a serious health matter is not a matter of "take the drugs" and "do the deeds." Doing the deeds necessitates overcoming the mental issues and depression that come with a grim diagnosis. There are support groups for all kinds of chronic and potentially fatal diseases. The stress and strain it puts on patients and their family emotionally can lead to the end of marriages, lost friends, depression, and so forth. Some patients go into a downward spiral of self-destructive behavior, because nothing matters to them anymore. Some feel so hopeless that they commit suicide.

You are making a very ignorant assumption that a medical issue is just a case of popping pills. It is far more than that.

If that "cure" proves to be prohibitively expensive, then people in Jenner's position will certainly have an advantage. Right now though she's stuck with trying to somehow magically (see what I did there?) be at peace with who she is, was, and will be - just as poorer trans people are.

And just as people who had their physical bodies become the greatest threat to their lives do.

 

[Omnis]

Not just a gay disease, a gay buttsex disease.

Thanks to the awareness lended to the disease by Magic Johnson's situation, we now have drugs like emtricitabine and tenofovir that prevent HIV infection.

Likewise, gender reassignment can come a long way. We're going from "It's a trap!" to "It's a trap?". Am I the only one that thinks Caitlyn looks less creepy than Bruce? Maybe it's not as shocking to me anymore, compared to bible-belt-middle-america. I'm used to it.

 

[LeMansAid]

Why do you think that someone with a medical condition that was essentially a death sentence at the time Johnson was diagnosed had no mental health issues with it? He went from being one of the top athletes in his sport, a specimen of physical excellence, and was told that his body will likely kill him. Trust me, when I tell you that dealing with a serious health matter is not a matter of "take the drugs" and "do the deeds." Doing the deeds necessitates overcoming the mental issues and depression that come with a grim diagnosis. There are support groups for all kinds of chronic and potentially fatal diseases. The stress and strain it puts on patients and their family emotionally can lead to the end of marriages, lost friends, depression, and so forth. Some patients go into a downward spiral of self-destructive behavior, because nothing matters to them anymore. Some feel so hopeless that they commit suicide.

You are making a very ignorant assumption that a medical issue is just a case of popping pills. It is far more than that.

Happy to have made an ignorant assumption - especially when the correction brings Johnson back down much closer to the every day man's level of struggle, and reinforces my view that fame and money only count for so much in these situations.