the Espy awards

[Daniel]

I don't think you understand what you even mean by "PC", it just seems to be a Monica for something you disagree with... the problem is that you can't really say why.

Are you so hung up on gender-specific names that somebody wanting to call themself "Caitlin" is so abhorrent? I don't use my "Sunday" name, people call me a shortened version of it. That must be wrong too, according to the hideous glimpses I've had of the system? If I wanted to change my name to something else entirely, why shouldn't I?

If you change your name it's fine. Unless it's a name that I don't like then it's not fine.

 

[Lain]

Except it isn't a case of been "feminine men" for trans women, or "masculine women" for trans men. They are not the same thing at all. As for the correct pronouns to use, it is whatever you are asked to use. Regardless of people's beliefs on the matter, just show some common decency and treat everyone how you yourselves would like to be treated.

And to some others who seem to think it is a nurture type thing, and it is all caused by the environment that individual grew up in. This was disproved a long time ago.

There was a case of twin boys born, both where circumcised. But there was an accident, and one of the boys ended up with badly mutilated in that area. It was ultimately decided that the baby boy would be raised a girl, and was followed closely by the medical doctors involved. The boy, now a girl grew up, but was never happy. In their teens it came out she was born male, it was explained about the accident. This individual then transitioned to been male again, and continued on with his life...... until he later killed himself at the age of 38. This is the result of attempts nurture in direct terms to gender. An individual knows what gender they are deep down, and this isn't just some rubbish trans individuals spout out to try to gain acceptance. You all know if you are male or female, it is just luck that your body matches up with how you feel and see yourself.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332396/Bruce-Reimer-Tragic-twin-boy-brought-girl.html

I also believe that there was some mention of treating the mind, not 100% sure as I read this thread more than a few hours ago on a mobile phone. And I can not be bothered to read through it again to check, so.....

In terms of treating the mind, this tactic was tried quite some time ago. Trans individuals, and even homosexuals went through the same ordeal in this regard, just so you know. They was subjected to invasive medical procedures, usually conducted by psychiatrist in mental institutions. These "procedures" ranged from electro shock therapy, to full on lobotomy's. And all in the name of "curing" someone of what was believed to be a psychological disorder. Some people even went on to spend the rest of there lives either a living vegetable through these procedures..... or as a vegetable because of the high dose of drugs they was given. One thing became apparent though, these doctors where not able to treat the mind; as there is nothing wrong with the minds of these individuals. But because of the way trans people are treated by society at large, it can result in people becoming depressed. Even to the point of suicide.

Now that I'm off the clock and have more time to fully take in your post, let me formulate a more complete response.

Is "feminine men/women" really not "the same thing at all" as trans women/men? According to Wikipedia (yeah yeah, I know), the brains of individuals suffering from GID are similar to homosexuals. This is speculation on my part, but I think a couple of the differences between people who decide that they're the wrong sex and people who decide they like the same sex (or people who find some other way to cope with their sex/gender mismatch) is:
1. How strong their gender is (i.e just how masculine/feminine they are).
2. Their life experience. (How they were treated because of their sex/gender mismatch, how they were treated in general regardless of the reason, etc.)

As for the correct pronouns to use, I'm going to slyly dodge that issue by saying I'm not worried about it either way... I don't think I'll ever have the need to use pronouns to refer to a GID-afflicted individual in my daily life, so I don't really have a preference or opinion either way. On one hand, I can see where you're coming from with regard to being nice. But on the other, the words are defined how they are. Plus, accepting things the way they are and just being Mr. Nice Guy isn't always the way to go... is the problem what words to use for people suffering from GID, or is the problem not GID itself?


And your story's nice (well not really, it's rather horrific), but I don't really see how it contradicts the idea of nurture playing a role. Unless you think trying to raise a masculine individual as a girl is somehow irrelevant and that it had no effect on him.

I also believe that there was some mention of treating the mind, not 100% sure as I read this thread more than a few hours ago on a mobile phone. And I can not be bothered to read through it again to check, so.....

In terms of treating the mind, this tactic was tried quite some time ago. Trans individuals, and even homosexuals went through the same ordeal in this regard, just so you know. They was subjected to invasive medical procedures, usually conducted by psychiatrist in mental institutions. These "procedures" ranged from electro shock therapy, to full on lobotomy's. And all in the name of "curing" someone of what was believed to be a psychological disorder. Some people even went on to spend the rest of there lives either a living vegetable through these procedures..... or as a vegetable because of the high dose of drugs they was given. One thing became apparent though, these doctors where not able to treat the mind; as there is nothing wrong with the minds of these individuals. But because of the way trans people are treated by society at large, it can result in people becoming depressed. Even to the point of suicide.

Let me be abundantly clear: I was never saying anything about "curing" trans indivuduals, or that I think that it's something that can or needs to be "cured". An individual's gender (femininity/masculinity) definitely has a strong biological component that's not gonna be changed by any amount of nurture.

I'm talking about gender expression... Somebody born as a feminine male could decide to become a female, or to become a homosexual male, or to become a feminine heterosexual male. And their decision here, not their gender, is what I'm saying is affected by nurture.

 

[Johnnypenso]

With that said though, I don't think Jenner was the appropriate recipient of the award. If she was still competing in sports in some fashion, then I'd agree since it would take courage to be a transgender athlete. However, all Jenner does now is make TV shows and within the last year or so may have actually killed someone due to texting and driving.

My vote for the award would have been for Stuart Scott's family or Devon Still.

I am not aware that texting and driving was involved, I thought he was cleared of that. However, Bruce definitely killed someone while driving.

 

[FoolKiller]

My apologies. Look at it as, the hit dog howling. Sorry.
*back under my rock as usual*

Sorry for the untagged quote and the double post.

I still can't understand how it is considered a "medical condition", when it could easily be considered a "medical disorder".(IMO)

Setting aside the 15 studies I linked to that say it is biological in nature...

The differences is semantics and connotations. Disorder implies that there is something wrong compared to condition which does not have the same connotations.

Gender dysphoria is also known as Gender Identity Disorder.

For what it's worth, I also think that the award could have gone to others who are still athletes. It's a TV awards show though, they're gonna award the people that will get the most TV buzz.

The only reason they played the semantics game from Gender Identity Disorder to Gender Dysphoria is because the mental health community recognized that this was not a sexual dysfunction or paraphilic disorder, but removing it as a psychological diagnosis risked removing access to treatment. The mental health community agrees that it is a condition and not a disorder, but until it receives a non-mental health diagnosis they don't want to dump patients into a situation where no healthcare system will recognize the treatment as medically necessary.

Ultimately, the problem is that most science has determined that gender dysphoria is biological in nature, not psychological. That makes it a physical health issue, however the physical problems are based in the brain on a cellular and genetic level. We still know very little about both and until we get a form of functional MRI that can easily determine brain response to stimuli and what it means, we won't be able to make a medical diagnosis by a physician. Gender disphoryia presents with things like depression, anxiety, and/or many other complex mental health conditions. The same can be said of other medical conditions, like heart disease and cancer, however those can be detected by current testing capabilities.

So, physicians do not have an official diagnosis because they cannot yet test and detect gender dysphoria. Diagnosis must come from examining the mental health problems of the patients and determining their root cause. Thus, it gets a mental health diagnosis that denotes the fact that it is a medical condition, and not a medical disorder.


TL;DR - The DSM5(pdf) determines that it is a medical condition and does not fall within the disorder category, as it does not fit in with any known category of disorders and has multiple verified studies showing it is biological in nature.

 

[Lain]

As I said, I think GID/Gender Dysphoria has both a biological component and a psychological component.

Yes, a person might be born with a strongly feminine gender inside the body of a male. But how an individual copes with that is psychological, and their upbringing has some bearing on it.

 

[Daniel]

Yes, a person might be born with a strongly feminine gender inside the body of a male. But how an individual copes with that is psychological, and their upbringing has some bearing on it.

Their upbringing may only help so much in how easily they come out or how feminine they act (for a bio-male). Gender identity is essentially set in stone between the ages of 3-6.

 

[Joel]

Are you so hung up on gender-specific names that somebody wanting to call themself "Caitlin" is so abhorrent? I don't use my "Sunday" name, people call me a shortened version of it. That must be wrong too, according to the hideous glimpses I've had of the system? If I wanted to change my name to something else entirely, why shouldn't I?

As always, relevant xkcd

______________________________________________________________________________

Setting aside nature vs nurture, disorder vs condition, or whether or not being transgendered is a real thing, I don't see why it's such a huge deal to just use the name and pronouns people identify as. Consider that roughly 40% (not a typo, FORTY percent) of transgendered people attempt suicide. 40%! Is it really that important to call her "Bruce" or argue about whether or not she's "technically" a man? Sure, Caitlyn Jenner is wildly rich and famous, and she's not affected by what happens on a small thread in a racing game forum. I can understand why people don't like her personally, there's the ongoing manslaughter case and of course anyone associated with the Kardashians is a bit suspect. But it isn't about Caitlyn Jenner. I'm glad she won that award because there's millions of transgendered people all over the world who finally have a public face to look up to who people view as successful and treat with respect.

Call me "PC" if you want, but when 4 in 10 transgendered people are attempting suicide, many are disowned from their families, socially isolated, treated with disrespect, and have their gender identity which is core to their very being and they feel no sense of control over flippantly disregarded, perhaps there's more important things than another debate about Science™, and Logic™. Sometimes doing what's right is more important than being right.

 

[Ialyrn]

^ Nature and nurture both play a role. It's not one or the other.

Has nothing to do with nurture at all, the Bruce Reimer story I linked to isn't the only case of that happening. There where others also. The vast majority of them ended up in the exact same situation, and that is the taking of their own lives. They was treated as an experiment by the medical profession. Thousands of children born with ambiguous genitalia had their gender picked by the doctor, and given "corrective surgery". Some time the doctors where right on the money, more often than not they got it wrong. This meant that parents where raising boys as girls, and girls as boys. So many of them ended up going through the same, if not worse than what trans individuals have to go through. They spent their entire lives been told they was one gender, only to find out they are actually the other. That particular practice has been stopped here in the UK and over in the USA now, but it was very common place in the 80's, and even in the 90's.

As I said, I think GID/Gender Dysphoria has both a biological component and a psychological component.

Yes, a person might be born with a strongly feminine gender inside the body of a male. But how an individual copes with that is psychological, and their upbringing has some bearing on it.

Just so you are a wear, I am a trans individual and I am talking from experience. Plus I am armed with a vast amount of information from my doctors, who are specialists in gender. One of my doctors has been helping out trans people for over 30 years. They all say the same thing, it has nothing to do with the persons environment, with how that person is nurtured throughout there lives. They know this because of what I have stated above, because it has been tested to death over and over again. You can speculate and hypotheses as much as you like, but this is the cold hard medically proven fact of the matter.

But, there is a caveat here. The doctors do not yet know fully why trans people such as myself exists, but they do know it is to do with physical aspects. They are getting to the point where they are pretty sure it is something that happens within the womb, a time when our bodies are hit with massive amounts of hormones which help us develop into a baby. They already know that the bodies physical sex is decided first which is when the gonads receive either male or female hormones. This creates either a male body, or a female one. But the brain itself is developed later on, and is also heavily effected and reliant by those exact same hormones. Add on the fact that before this particular point, all fetus are female at the very beginning. This is why men also have nipples, as we are create first from our mothers DNA

So say you have the fetus, the hormones that baby receives are male. Further down the line those same male hormones are turned off for some reason, and female hormones go to the fetus. This would effect the development of the brain. This could create the potentiality for an individual to be born physically male, but with the feeling they are female within their very core. This has not been 100% proven as of yet, but the doctors who deal with this on a daily basis are pretty sure this is what is going on.

But this is the thing with those of us who are trans. We know deep down what gender we are, just as Cis-gendered people know what gender they are. It is not one way for them and one way for us, we all just know what gender we are. Gender is not the same as physical sex though, and it is something which is ingrained deep within us. The psychological aspects only come into play because of society at large, because of the way the general population deny that we are anything but mentally ill. We don't get treated like second rate citizens, we get treated lower than that. Among transgender individuals, there are more of us who can be living under the poverty line compared to cis-gendered individuals. We have a higher rate of suicide, more often than not due to the fact that we get bullied and picked on in our daily lives by cis-gendered individuals. We get verbally and physically attacked, and even murdered. Did you know that there is even a day of remembrance for transgender people who have lost their lives? That is how many trans individuals have lost their lives, and for what exactly? It isn't even as though trans individuals are a new thing either. We are not a 20th century invention, we have been here throughout history. It is well documented, especially within India, Ancient Greece, and even Egypt. There where even trans individuals in roman times.

Take Greek mythology as one example. It was thought of in ancient Greece that the god of love Cupid was intersex, both male and female, his parents Hermes and Aphrodite. And is also the basis for the word "Hermaphrodite". It would seem that those of ancient times had a far greater understanding of gender than we do nor in the 21st century. Just goes to show that in some ways the human race has gone backwards and not forward, which is kind of depressing.

The other side of the coin here though, is how male to female trans individuals are treated compared to that of female to male trans individuals. In most cases the female to male trans person is more readily accepted into society. Yet the vast majority of things publicized and talked about, are male to female trans individuals. We are the ones who get the most media attention, we are the ones that are more often than not talked about in discussions such as the one in this thread. And we are the ones who garner the majority of ill intent. This isn't always the case, but the world is more accepting of a female to male trans person, and has been the case through most of recent history. Lets face it, we hardly ever hear anything about Chers son, Chaz Bono, who is a female to male trans person. How often are they mentioned in the press? How often are they ridiculed? How often are they treated to abuse? Just why is the world more readily accepting of a female to male trans individual, but treat us male to female trans people with utter contempt? It just makes no sense. I think the issues in this come to play with the fact that Transgender is an umbrella terms, and this includes both cross-dresser, drag queens and kings (yes, Drag Kings are a thing too), and transvestites, in the same why it also includes transsexuals. This is most likely where the issues are coming into play, and why it is so much harder for a male to female trans person can not gain acceptance as readily.

And Lain, this part isn't aimed at you, but others in the thread. To the ones who have brought up Chromosomes in the discussion. The thing here though, is that most people do not know what their Chromosomes are, and they are very rarely tested. People need to undergo a Karyotype test to find this information out, but it is not a standard test. It is not done very often at all, and is often only used when trying to confirm a diagnosis for certain disorders. Myself, as a trans individual, have not even had this test done. I have no idea if my Chromosomes are "XY" or "XX". The other side of this though, is the fact that there are XY females who where born physically female. And XX males who where born physically male. Even with regards to Chromosomes, they do not play a part in our gender, just our physical sex. There are people out there that are transgender, that could actually be intersex based on their Chromosomes. @Famine was telling me in another thread that the incidence of intersex based on Chromosomes is actually quite small, but the only thing with this, is that it is an estimated figure based on the amount of people who have had a Karyotype test done. Every single person in the world would need to have a Karyotype test to find an actual real world figure. It could be higher than what Famine told me about in another thread, it could also be lower. But what all this shows is this, the human body is a very strange thing. And at this particular moment in time, we do not fully understand how it works in every single way. We still have a long way to go in this regard.

Things, as they are, are just not as simple as some would want to believe. And fair enough, everyone in here has their own opinion on these things. But at the very least know what you are actually talking about. There is so much information readily available at the tips of our finger. It is so easy to access compared to even the early 90's, and to find things out. We can expand our knowledge on any number of things, including relating to gender and physical sex, and how the two are not one in the same. The people in this thread such as @ryzno , you are entitled to your opinion, but there is no need to be so insulting with it. Lets face facts here, there are estimated to be a minimum of 700,000 trans individuals in America alone. That is a lot of trans people. This isn't something that is just going to go away, but those numbers will increase as more help and understanding becomes available. If this is something you honestly believe is not normal, that is isn't right. Fair enough, I may be commenting in this thread, but I dont really care. But at least show some common decency. You don't have to refer to Caitlyn Jenner by name at all, but you equally don't have to refer to her as "Him" or "Bruce". You could quite easily refer to them with gender natural pronouns such as "them" and "their"

Anyway, I think this post is long enough.

 

[Famine]

And Lain, this part isn't aimed at you, but others in the thread. To the ones who have brought up Chromosomes in the discussion. The thing here though, is that most people do not know what their Chromosomes are, and they are very rarely tested. People need to undergo a Karyotype test to find this information out, but it is not a standard test. It is not done very often at all, and is often only used when trying to confirm a diagnosis for certain disorders. Myself, as a trans individual, have not even had this test done. I have no idea if my Chromosomes are "XY" or "XX". The other side of this though, is the fact that there are XY females who where

If it's just XX and XY you're interested in, it can be done with a microscope - no need for karyotyping. XX has one Barr Body, XY has none.

Barr Body tests won't correctly identify sex chromosome disorders though, like XO (Turner's; phenotypically female, no Barr Body) or XXY (Klinefelter's; phenotypically male, one Barr Body, but unless there's a morphological/genetic mismatch it's good enough.

 

[Ialyrn]

If it's just XX and XY you're interested in, it can be done with a microscope - no need for karyotyping. XX has one Barr Body, XY has none.

Barr Body tests won't correctly identify sex chromosome disorders though, like XO (Turner's; phenotypically female, no Barr Body) or XXY (Klinefelter's; phenotypically male, one Barr Body, but unless there's a morphological/genetic mismatch it's good enough.

Exactly why I linked you in my posting, as I know from what you told me before that you worked with this stuff. Figured you might be able to add more information in this regard. The fact still remains however, that my Chromosomes have not been tested at all by my doctors. The only thing they have looked at in my blood, is hormone levels, liver functions, and blood sugar, and so on. It is just automatically assumed that I am XY. I have been contemplating asking for them to be checked, but ultimately it just doesn't matter. As they only refer to ones physical sex anyway. This is the same for the vast majority of trans individuals out there in the world.

Anyway, thank you for replying to that part, and for adding some additional information on the matter. Much appreciated.

 

[Lain]

Has nothing to do with nurture at all, the Bruce Reimer story I linked to isn't the only case of that happening. There where others also. The vast majority of them ended up in the exact same situation, and that is the taking of their own lives. They was treated as an experiment by the medical profession. Thousands of children born with ambiguous genitalia had their gender picked by the doctor, and given "corrective surgery". Some time the doctors where right on the money, more often than not they got it wrong. This meant that parents where raising boys as girls, and girls as boys. So many of them ended up going through the same, if not worse than what trans individuals have to go through. They spent their entire lives been told they was one gender, only to find out they are actually the other. That particular practice has been stopped here in the UK and over in the USA now, but it was very common place in the 80's, and even in the 90's.

So being treated as a medical experiment, given "corrective" surgery/treatment, being told you're the gender opposite of what you actually are... that's not nurture? Yes, it definitely is nurture. Which leads me to believe that you simply must misunderstand what I'm saying nurture applies to.

So again: I am NOT saying that nurture affects gender. I AM saying that nurture affects how somebody with a sex/gender mismatch percieves themselves, how much self-esteem they have for themselves, etc.

Just so you are a wear, I am a trans individual and I am talking from experience. Plus I am armed with a vast amount of information from my doctors, who are specialists in gender. One of my doctors has been helping out trans people for over 30 years. They all say the same thing, it has nothing to do with the persons environment, with how that person is nurtured throughout there lives. They know this because of what I have stated above, because it has been tested to death over and over again. You can speculate and hypotheses as much as you like, but this is the cold hard medically proven fact of the matter.

But, there is a caveat here. The doctors do not yet know fully why trans people such as myself exists, but they do know it is to do with physical aspects. They are getting to the point where they are pretty sure it is something that happens within the womb, a time when our bodies are hit with massive amounts of hormones which help us develop into a baby. They already know that the bodies physical sex is decided first which is when the gonads receive either male or female hormones. This creates either a male body, or a female one. But the brain itself is developed later on, and is also heavily effected and reliant by those exact same hormones. Add on the fact that before this particular point, all fetus are female at the very beginning. This is why men also have nipples, as we are create first from our mothers DNA

So say you have the fetus, the hormones that baby receives are male. Further down the line those same male hormones are turned off for some reason, and female hormones go to the fetus. This would effect the development of the brain. This could create the potentiality for an individual to be born physically male, but with the feeling they are female within their very core. This has not been 100% proven as of yet, but the doctors who deal with this on a daily basis are pretty sure this is what is going on.

But this is the thing with those of us who are trans. We know deep down what gender we are, just as Cis-gendered people know what gender they are. It is not one way for them and one way for us, we all just know what gender we are. Gender is not the same as physical sex though, and it is something which is ingrained deep within us. The psychological aspects only come into play because of society at large, because of the way the general population deny that we are anything but mentally ill. We don't get treated like second rate citizens, we get treated lower than that. Among transgender individuals, there are more of us who can be living under the poverty line compared to cis-gendered individuals. We have a higher rate of suicide, more often than not due to the fact that we get bullied and picked on in our daily lives by cis-gendered individuals. We get verbally and physically attacked, and even murdered. Did you know that there is even a day of remembrance for transgender people who have lost their lives? That is how many trans individuals have lost their lives, and for what exactly? It isn't even as though trans individuals are a new thing either. We are not a 20th century invention, we have been here throughout history. It is well documented, especially within India, Ancient Greece, and even Egypt. There where even trans individuals in roman times.

Take Greek mythology as one example. It was thought of in ancient Greece that the god of love Cupid was intersex, both male and female, his parents Hermes and Aphrodite. And is also the basis for the word "Hermaphrodite". It would seem that those of ancient times had a far greater understanding of gender than we do nor in the 21st century. Just goes to show that in some ways the human race has gone backwards and not forward, which is kind of depressing.

The other side of the coin here though, is how male to female trans individuals are treated compared to that of female to male trans individuals. In most cases the female to male trans person is more readily accepted into society. Yet the vast majority of things publicized and talked about, are male to female trans individuals. We are the ones who get the most media attention, we are the ones that are more often than not talked about in discussions such as the one in this thread. And we are the ones who garner the majority of ill intent. This isn't always the case, but the world is more accepting of a female to male trans person, and has been the case through most of recent history. Lets face it, we hardly ever hear anything about Chers son, Chaz Bono, who is a female to male trans person. How often are they mentioned in the press? How often are they ridiculed? How often are they treated to abuse? Just why is the world more readily accepting of a female to male trans individual, but treat us male to female trans people with utter contempt? It just makes no sense. I think the issues in this come to play with the fact that Transgender is an umbrella terms, and this includes both cross-dresser, drag queens and kings (yes, Drag Kings are a thing too), and transvestites, in the same why it also includes transsexuals. This is most likely where the issues are coming into play, and why it is so much harder for a male to female trans person can not gain acceptance as readily.

This strengthens the idea that you simply misunderstood the scope to which I was saying nurture applied.

I am NOT saying that nurture affects gender. So pretty much this entire swath of quoted text is wasted breath on your part... I'm not disagreeing or contradicting any of it. I'm not saying that trans people don't know what gender they are, or that gender is determined or influenced post-birth.

The closest I think that nurture comes to affecting gender is that it has some effect on gender expression... which absolutely does NOT change an individual's gender.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I am NOT saying that nurture affects gender.

Cool, I understand that.

The closest I think that nurture comes to affecting gender is that it has some effect on gender expression... which absolutely does NOT change an individual's gender.

Err... what? So in your mind what is gender then?

 

[Daniel]

Err... what? So in your mind what is gender then?

I think we misunderstood @Lain. Nurture very much has an effect on gender expression since you're essentially raised on how to act. Play with trucks, don't wear pink, you're not allowed to cry etc. This has an effect on your earlier gender expression since you may have been told the aforementioned things, even though you really wanted to play with your sister's Barbie dolls.

Nature doesn't have much of a way in terms of gender identity (which is what gender you believe to be). Since you have an idea of what gender you are when you're around 3-6 and that rarely changes. People (like Caitlyn Jenner or Chaz Bono) only start their transitioning later in life.

 

[Lain]

Cool, I understand that.

Cool, I'm... glad?

Err... what? So in your mind what is gender then?

Because page 5 was so long ago...

Gender is whether you're feminine/masculine. Sex is whether you have a penis or a vagina.

And subsequently, gender expression is (surprise) how you express your femininity/masculinity.

If this post seems snarky, it's because I haven't had my coffee.

 

[ryzno]

Going back to the culture subject. What, dictate all, end all debates, culture, said someone has to accept or respect another persons belief. Or, make sure one does not offend someone?

Oh wait, the PC culture, that worries about everyone's feelings and emotions.

If you change your name it's fine. Unless it's a name that I don't like then it's not fine.

You are right, she should have called herself, Katelyn. A kiss begins with "K".

 

[Daniel]

Going back to the culture subject. What, dictate all, end all debates, culture, said someone has to accept or respect another persons belief. Or, make sure one does not offend someone?

Oh wait, the PC culture, that worries about everyone's feelings and emotions.

There's a difference between having different beliefs and worldviews, and belittling the worldviews that other people have.

 

[Tornado]

Consider that roughly 40% (not a typo, FORTY percent) of transgendered people attempt suicide. 40%!

You know, having flipped through some of the points of interest in that study, it doesn't seem to actually be saying what you are implying it to say. There seems to be an awful lot of contributing factors in those sky high suicide rates to simply assume that they are primarily because of discrimination.

She won that award because there's millions of transgendered people all over the world who finally have a public face to look up to who people view as successful and treat with respect.

So that was the reason? It wasn't a 2009 Nobel Peace Prize situation?

 

[Ialyrn]

So being treated as a medical experiment, given "corrective" surgery/treatment, being told you're the gender opposite of what you actually are... that's not nurture? Yes, it definitely is nurture. Which leads me to believe that you simply must misunderstand what I'm saying nurture applies to.

So again: I am NOT saying that nurture affects gender. I AM saying that nurture affects how somebody with a sex/gender mismatch percieves themselves, how much self-esteem they have for themselves, etc.

Did you even read what I wrote? This only happened because the Doctors of the time had the same mindset as you do at this particular moment in time, that it was down to nurture. They was proven wrong by the amount of these people who required surgery to correct what the doctors had done to them as infants, and they received countless hours of therapy to help them deal with the emotional scars left by what these doctors had done to them. Some took their own lives, just like Bruce Reimer did. This is why the practice of a Doctor deciding what gender a child is who has ambiguous genitalia has been done away with. So I will refer back to your original post on the matter, which is why I am giving you this information in the first place.

Basically the whole issue (the Bruce Jenner one, not the Espy one) boils down to the divide between sex and gender.

Gender is whether you're feminine/masculine. Sex is whether you have a penis or a vagina.

And unless we're trying to start some 🤬, the pronoun we usually use to refer to a person is based on sex rather than gender. You don't run around calling feminine men "she", do you (again, unless you're trying to start something)? So the question is... do we make an exception for people wtih GID? Do we update the definitions of the pronouns for more politically correct usage?

Most of the symptoms on the Wikipedia page for GID are just the results of social rejection/bullying. Y'know... the whole "you're a boy but you play with dolls, so people give you crap for it" thing. Is the real issue therefore not rooted in the social expectations of men to act like men, and women to act like women? GID-afflicted individuals, to me, seem like they aren't so much dissatisfied with their sex or gender as they are dissatisfied with how they're treated because their gender doesn't match up with their sex.

If that's the case, there's two ways we can go about addressing this: Gender dysphoric individuals can change their apparent sex and society can to try to become accepting of them, and/or society can simply try to become more accepting of feminine men and masculine women. I think the latter would be easier to accomplish.

You clearly believe that trans men are just woman who are masculine, and trans women are just feminine men. This is why I keep responding towards you with this information, as you have warped "gender" and "gender expression" into one and the same. But they are both separate. Gender is either Male or female, not masculine or feminine. Gender expression is the one which is masculine or feminine.

This strengthens the idea that you simply misunderstood the scope to which I was saying nurture applied.

I am NOT saying that nurture affects gender. So pretty much this entire swath of quoted text is wasted breath on your part... I'm not disagreeing or contradicting any of it. I'm not saying that trans people don't know what gender they are, or that gender is determined or influenced post-birth.

The closest I think that nurture comes to affecting gender is that it has some effect on gender expression... which absolutely does NOT change an individual's gender.

What you are now using as your argument is the expression of ones gender, which is totally different to what you was portraying earlier in this thread. You have effectively changed your stance from

Is "feminine men/women" really not "the same thing at all" as trans women/men? According to Wikipedia (yeah yeah, I know), the brains of individuals suffering from GID are similar to homosexuals. This is speculation on my part, but I think a couple of the differences between people who decide that they're the wrong sex and people who decide they like the same sex (or people who find some other way to cope with their sex/gender mismatch) is:
1. How strong their gender is (i.e just how masculine/feminine they are).
2. Their life experience. (How they were treated because of their sex/gender mismatch, how they were treated in general regardless of the reason, etc.)

To what you are now emphatically arguing as "gender expression".

So what I put in my last posting in this thread was clearly not wasted breath, as you are now talking only about gender expression. Gender expression is based on nurture, I will agree with you on that. As it comes directly from our upbringing, and what we are told/taught is acceptable behavior for either a man or a woman. From not only our family's, but our peers, and everyone else around us. But these ideas of "gender expression" are only a social construct, and only pertain to what are acceptable and agreeable as social norms. And these things change from decade to decade, and region to region. This is why I said -

Take Greek mythology as one example. It was thought of in ancient Greece that the god of love Cupid was intersex, both male and female, his parents Hermes and Aphrodite. And is also the basis for the word "Hermaphrodite". It would seem that those of ancient times had a far greater understanding of gender than we do now in the 21st century. Just goes to show that in some ways the human race has gone backwards and not forward, which is kind of depressing.

When you look deeper into things, you will see that once upon a time, it was considered masculine to wear a skirt. At the same time, it was also considered feminine to wear trousers. And take the color pink also, once a masculine color, while blue was feminine. That has been reversed in more recent times. So yes, I will agree that gender expression is based on nurture. But gender identity and gender expression are two different things, the former is not effected by nurture in any way. More than that though, as the quoted text above clearly shows. We, as human beings, have gone backwards instead of forwards. At one time it was considered perfectly normal to be a transgender individual, and that includes everything under the transgender umbrella term. Even gods and goddesses where once thought to be either intersex or transgender. Now though, well, it isn't really accepted at all is it. Just how can we go from that level of understanding and acceptance over gender to what we have now? It boggles the mind.

 

[Joel]

So that was the reason?

What you've quoted should have been preceded with "I'm glad". As in "I'm glad she won the award because...". My mistake.

We all know these awards shows are self serving and political. I'm under no delusions that the decision wasn't mostly political/ratings based but I'm willing to be happy with it anyway because of what it represents, which is that hopefully transgendered people will have some positive representation and things will get better going forward.

 

[LeMansAid]

I'm late to the party. Sorry.

I did not watch this year because I am disgusted with thatthey gave the courage award to Bruce (Caitlyn) Jenner

Still nothing courageous there, certainly nothing deserving an award.

I don't know Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner at all, but I'm guessing he/she would not be bothered in the slightest by those comments. If that's the worst he/she has faced, I'd say he/she's had it pretty easy.

If courage is being afraid, but doing it anyway, then the act itself is not the only parameter that should be measured. One man's balance beam is another man's high wire.

It means that we might look at something someone else does and see it as courageous, when in reality it's nothing to them. It can also mean the equal opposite - that what looks like no big deal to us is extremely courageous on their part. Courage is not objective. This is not about higher, faster, longer. Yes, it's about the act, but just as much about "From what start point?".

By my standards, she's some sort of bravery god. I'd take a thousand punches to the head before choosing to live something like this out in the public eye. If only she could rely on adrenaline to mask the pain, and peer group pressure to spur her on - as sports people often have the benefit of.

 

[Lain]

Gender is either Male or female, not masculine or feminine. Gender expression is the one which is masculine or feminine..

Wrong. Male/female is sex.

Exhibit A, The very first sentence in the Wikipedia article for gender: "Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity."

...had the same mindset as you do at this particular moment in time, that it was down to nurture.

Clearly you're not reading what I'm posting, which might be the reason why it seems I'm not reading what you're posting from your viewpoint.

I have repeatedly said multiple times now that I do not consider gender to be influenced by nurture. At all.

What you are now using as your argument is the expression of ones gender, which is totally different to what you was portraying earlier in this thread. You have effectively changed your stance from

(Stuff regarding my thoughts on gender expression)

To what you are now emphatically arguing as "gender expression".

So you're reading what I'm posting, but just horribly misinterpreting it because of whatever warped opinion you have of my opinion. Okay.

 

[Ialyrn]

Wrong. Male/female is sex.

You are still confusing "Gender Identity" with "Gender Expression".

biological sex is either male or female.

Gender identity is either male or female, it is ones private sense of been a man or a woman.

Gender expression is totally different, as I outlined in my last post.

You are arguing with a person who lives this stuff every single day, has done a ton of research, and has had many a discussion on these topics with specially trained Doctors in the field of gender

I have repeatedly said multiple times now that I do not consider gender to be influenced by nurture. At all.

You have only started to state this since I challenged your view on the matter. I have gone over your posts a few times while I was writing up my last reply to you, and I have noted that you have changed your argument. But you are still making the mistake of confusing the two. That is unless you are going from the definition of "Gender Binary", which is classed as either "masculine" or "feminine". This one incorporates gender roles, gender identity, and the associated attributes.

So you're reading what I'm posting, but just horribly misinterpreting it because of whatever warped opinion you have of my opinion. Okay.

I can assure you that I am not misinterpreting your posts, I have read them multiple times just to make sure.

 

[Lain]

You have only started to state this since I challenged your view on the matter.

You challenged my view because you erroneously believed that I was saying that gender could be influenced by nurture, so I had to clarify my standpint.

I was saying that gender expression could be influenced by nurture this whole time.

You are still confusing "Gender Identity" with "Gender Expression".

I have not once mentioned or discussed the term Gender Identity, which is something different from both "Gender Expression" AND "Just Plain Gender", so I don't see how you could think I'm confusing it.

Gender Identity is whether you identify as male/female, which yes... is a form of gender expression, IMO.

Gender is whether you're feminine/masculine, so you might choose to express that (Gender Expression!) by identifying as the corresponding sex (Gender Identity!) despite not physically being that sex.


(Sorry for all the edits... I'm hastily typing this up because I'm at work)

 

[Ialyrn]

No, I've been saying it since before you even replied to any of my posts.

Okay, I'll concede this one now that I've taken the time to review the thread.

That makes me glad that you have taken the time to read your own posts again, most people wouldn't.

I am still confused over one of your posts though

Is "feminine men/women" really not "the same thing at all" as trans women/men? According to Wikipedia (yeah yeah, I know), the brains of individuals suffering from GID are similar to homosexuals. This is speculation on my part, but I think a couple of the differences between people who decide that they're the wrong sex and people who decide they like the same sex (or people who find some other way to cope with their sex/gender mismatch) is:
1. How strong their gender is (i.e just how masculine/feminine they are).
2. Their life experience. (How they were treated because of their sex/gender mismatch, how they were treated in general regardless of the reason, etc.)

I did quote this in my last long post, as this bit here, and your first post. Well, it makes it seem as though you are saying that trans men are just masculine woman, and that trans woman are just feminine men. And how trans people "chose" to be trans based on how we was treated by others. I would appreciate if you could expand on this one.

You challenged my view because you erroneously believed that I was saying that gender could be influenced by nurture, so I had to clarify my standpint.

I was saying that gender expression could be influenced by nurture this whole time.

And just when I thought we was getting somewhere.

Look, I am not trying to be an ass here. I have two windows open now, side by side. and I am reading your posts, yet again, as I am writing this portion of my post. Lets see if we can get on the same page here, because we currently have a whole library between us it would seem.

From reading your posts again, you clearly was not talking about gender expression, at least not on its own in your very first post. you specifically stated just "Gender", and that gender is either "masculine or feminine". You then go one to belittle the idea of GID as "just the results of social rejection/bullying", and even speculate "Is the real issue therefore not rooted in the social expectations of men to act like men, and women to act like women?"
Not to mention that, in your own words, "GID-afflicted individuals, to me, seem like that aren't so much dissatisfied with their sex or gender as they are dissatisfied with how they're treated because their gender doesn't match up with their sex". You also think it would be easier for society to become more accepting of feminine men and masculine women, which wouldn't help much at all, quite frankly. The reason for this, is the fact that not all trans women are feminine, and not all trans men are masculine. I would be considered fluid in my gender expression. I wear pretty much nothing but jeans/trousers, and t-shirts, or sweatshirts/jumpers/hoodies in the colder months. Basically androgynous here in terms of clothing style. Only time I deviate from that, is for special occasions. But even then, I am still in trousers. I dont tend to wear much make-up at all either. I like cars, which is seen as a masculine thing by most. But on the other hand, I also like horses, and I am quite good at show jumping and cross country riding. This is something that is seen as feminine by most. So you see, it isn't as straight forward in this regard, just as it isn't for cis-gendered individuals.

I will concede that you said you was talking about gender expression by your third posting, but it is hampered by what you stated at the start of that particular post. To which I have already asked if you can expand on it some more. It is eerily similar to your first post.

Your 4th posting is a little more sedate, with you stating that you believe GID has a biological and psychological component. Which I agree with, but probably not in the way you think I do. You see, from been trans myself, I know the pitfalls of been the way I am. And the psychological aspects come into play in the form of depression and anxiety. You see, GID in and of itself is not a mental disorder (I know you are not saying it is), but it can be the underlying cause of them. We are faced with immense pressure and stress in our day to day lives, which comes from the verbal and often physical abuse that we are open to. The fact it is harder for us to find work, and even homes. So many trans people live below the poverty line, more so than cis-gendered individuals. We often lose at least a few family members and friends, which decreases our support network. Often we are made to feel guilty by others, as though we are freaks and shouldn't be doing what we are. In my own case I lost my mum, she physically assaulted me when I confided in her. And this went on for a few weeks till my boyfriend told me he wasn't having it anymore, and moved me a few hundred miles away for my own safety. This also meant that I was no longer close to my siblings. Who, for the most part, had accepted me. These are what create the psychological aspects of it all, and this is the sort of stuff that happens to trans people, and why so many of us attempt suicide. Both before and after our social transition. Some of this I put into my direct response to your 4th post before. It is, in your own words, included in "this entire swath of text is wasted breath on your part". So my breakdown of the psychological aspects of GID where completely overlooked by you. I think that because of the length of my posts to you, that you have been skipping through them as fast as possible. Every trans person has these same issues, and they are caused by the fear of rejection, fear of been attacked by others, and fear of been mis-gendered. The thing we want most, is to just be accepted as who we are. And if someone can not accept us, then for those people to just leave us alone and let us get on with our lives.

And then we get onto the posts we both made this morning, which I do not feel I need to dissect.

Again, as I said above. I am not trying to be an ass. But, in your early posts, you show some pretty big misconceptions about trans individuals. And you clearly did mix up the whole "gender identity" and "gender expression" stuff. Mainly by not been clear and concise with the points you made.

This video may also help us both get on the same page, but even if it doesn't. It is still very much worth a watch by anyone involved in this thread.



I also saw you edited another one of your posts, and again, you use "gender" on its own to get your point across. In a discussion like this, it is better to just state if you are using "gender identity" or "gender expression".

Not only that, but you only show half the information that pertains to your very own "exhibit A". lets take a look at the full paragraph shall we.

"Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female orintersex), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity."

As we can see here, Gender on its own is an umbrella term in a way. Which refers to biological sex. sex based social structure, which would contain some things relating somewhat to gender expression. And gender identity. Not only that, but that very same paragraph points people to other wiki posts for information on these matters. You may not have expressly used "Gender Expression" or "gender Identity" in your previous posts to refer to your points. But now I can see why it appears that you have the two mixed up. Those very same wiki pages you are working from here, all point to expanded information on the points contained within those umbrella terms. But lets be realistic here, wiki is by far one of the worst places to get information from.

By the way, if you read through my first post towards you again. I expressly said "and to some others who seem to think it is a nurture type thing, and that it is all caused by the environment that individual grew up in. This was disproved a long time ago."

So I can see where we have gotten our wires muddled, as you obviously thought that was a direct response to you. It wasn't! It was aimed at "others" in the thread. I just didn't realize, as there was a around 15 hours between that post, and my second one. And a new page. What is odd about this though, is that this is what you haven chosen to debate me with. The only part of my first post that was towards yourself, was the very first paragraph, lol. Basically, our debate didn't even need to happen. At least in regards to the whole nature nurture stuff anyway. When what we should have been discussing, is why you seem to imply that trans individuals are either just feminine men, or masculine women, within your first and 3rd posts in here. So I look forward to discussing with you those particular posts, and hopefully moving on from this nurture/nature stuff.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Going back to the culture subject. What, dictate all, end all debates, culture, said someone has to accept or respect another persons belief. Or, make sure one does not offend someone?

Oh wait, the PC culture, that worries about everyone's feelings and emotions.

Empathy is a good thing to have you know. Worrying about other people's feelings isn't a bad thing at all generally speaking. In fact, the world sure could use more of it.

 

[FoolKiller]

If this were just about not being offensive I would say that you can refer to them however you want, because anyone who knows me well enough knows that I think political correctness stupid. Free speech is free speech and all that jazz.

Unfortunately, this is saying something that hits them on a traumatic level. It's like trying to trigger a PTSD episode in someone.

 

[ryzno]

If this were just about not being offensive I would say that you can refer to them however you want, because anyone who knows me well enough knows that I think political correctness stupid. Free speech is free speech and all that jazz.

Unfortunately, this is saying something that hits them on a traumatic level. It's like trying to trigger a PTSD episode in someone.

Well, I'm glad I have a strong enough mind to over come 2 1/2 years, of daily racism, while I was on vacation, courtesy of the State of Georgia tax payers.(just so you know, even though I doubt you care, I'm white)
Caitlyn didn't have to deal with a milligram of hate, till she, decided to do what she, hasn't finished doing. Funny side note: there was a story on TMZ today, confirming the fact of a unfinished, unsatisfied...
"Transformation?"

I'd rather hear the story(I won't), after it's done. Not, boo whoos of it not working. Much less the rest of the BS the media shows of the ENTIRE family.

I just believe what she has done is wrong. And to have "courage", she should have been doing this transformation decades ago, not at 65 when it is becoming "the norm".

PS the video was educational @lalyrn.

 

[LeMansAid]

Funny side note: there was a story on TMZ today, confirming the fact of a unfinished, unsatisfied...
"Transformation?"

We clearly have differing definitions for what's funny.

 

[ryzno]

Every planet in the galaxy must have aligned. I watched the acceptance speech.
Even though a lot of real subjects were spoken. The whole situation feels like a "look at me, money/fame grab.

 

[Lain]

When what we should have been discussing, is why you seem to imply that trans individuals are either just feminine men, or masculine women, within your first and 3rd posts in here. So I look forward to discussing with you those particular posts, and hopefully moving on from this nurture/nature stuff.

Basically, when I say masculine/feminine gender, I'm meaning mental gender... don't think of it as meaning "macho" or "girly". You've got sex (physical gender), gender (mental gender) and gender identity. A trans individual therefore is somebody whose physical gender and mental gender are different, and would prefer their mental gender to be recognized as their gender identity.

And not everybody who has differing physical and mental genders deals with it that way. There can be many reasons why somebody would or wouldn't choose to have their mental gender be recognized as their gender identity, most of which I feel are derived from life experience. But I didn't intend any belittling by saying that social rejection or bullying could be one of the life experiences involved in a person's choice. In fact, one of the primary reasons why somebody wouldn't choose to have their mental gender be recognized as their gender identity is because they aren't brave enough.

...Though upon glancing at the Wiki page for Gender Identity (yes I'm aware that Wikipedia's not much of a source), it seems I may have simply misunderstood the meaning of the term. Honestly, it sounds more like what I've been using "Gender" for... and perhaps "Gender Expression" is more in line with what I've been considering "Gender Identity" to mean.