the Espy awards

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Basically, when I say masculine/feminine gender, I'm meaning mental sex... don't think of it as meaning "macho" or "girly". You've got sex (physical gender), gender (mental gender) and gender identity. A trans individual therefore is somebody whose physical gender and mental gender are different, and would prefer their mental gender to be recognized as their gender identity.
Seems like you had a bit of a mis-definition.

Your idea of 'mental gender' is the actual definition of gender identity. It's the gender with which you identify with. Gender expression could be thought of as how much you express your gender (i.e. what clothes you wear, how deep your voice is, your general mannerisms). And of course we have physical sex.
 
Seems like you had a bit of a mis-definition.

Your idea of 'mental gender' is the actual definition of gender identity. It's the gender with which you identify with. Gender expression could be thought of as how much you express your gender (i.e. what clothes you wear, how deep your voice is, your general mannerisms). And of course we have physical sex.

Not exactly. I believe individuals have a mental gender that isn't necessarily going to be the gender they identify with.
 
So do you mean mental gender which is what one believes they are* versus identity which is how they show themselves on the outside?
 
No, it's more like... gender identity is what one considers themselves to be, with suitable gender expression possibly following. Mental gender is how their brain's wired.

Basically I'm saying that not everybody whose brains are wired like a man or woman will end up assuming that as their gender identity. How their gender identity will ultimately be aligned is infuenced by their physical sex, their mental gender and their life experience.

For example, a person who is born both physically and mentally male will probably have this reinforced by life experience and their gender identity will almost certainly be male as a result.

A person whose physical and mental genders aren't aligned are on a bit more shaky ground, and their early life experience will tip the scales one way or another to determine what gender they identify with.

Though I will say that I don't think mental gender is one or the other, rather it's more of a spectrum. An individual can be strongly male, slightly male, neutral, etc.

For instance, a person who is physically female and mentally slightly male might become a tomboy or a lesbian, but still identify as female... dependant on how their life plays out, of course. A person who is physically female and mentally strongly male will probably feel they're in the wrong body and identify as male, but it's dependant on how strong their mental maleness is and, to some degree, their life experience.
 
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Well, I'm glad I have a strong enough mind to over come 2 1/2 years, of daily racism, while I was on vacation, courtesy of the State of Georgia tax payers.(just so you know, even though I doubt you care, I'm white)
Let me know when it becomes a life sentence.

Caitlyn didn't have to deal with a milligram of hate, till she, decided to do what she, hasn't finished doing. Funny side note: there was a story on TMZ today, confirming the fact of a unfinished, unsatisfied...
"Transformation?"
Huh, funny. Yeah. If you find exposing your ignorance to the issues that people who suffer from gender dysphoria suffer funny. Let me give you a hint: Even after surgery many still deal with depression and self-doubt. Funny story: Joe is still depressed after all that therapy, guys.

I'd rather hear the story(I won't), after it's done. Not, boo whoos of it not working. Much less the rest of the BS the media shows of the ENTIRE family.
The boo whoos of it not "working" would be trying to educate people of just how hard something like this is on someone. That is kind of the whole point of her coming out publicly like this, so people like you have an opportunity to see it in someone with a bit of fame and not wind up being a total rude egg when you meet someone like this in just everyday life.

I just believe what she has done is wrong. And to have "courage", she should have been doing this transformation decades ago, not at 65 when it is becoming "the norm".
Fine, you don't want to hear about it. Don't watch it. You want to know how much I know about this story, other than the fact that Caitlyn was Bruce Jenner? None. Know why? Because it doesn't directly affect me. I heard about the interview, I saw the magazine cover, and I said, "Well, there you go. I hope she is happier now." That was it. I didn't look into it any further.

And I am curious what actions you mean exactly and what you mean by "wrong."

The fact that some people found it a trigger for hate, feel the need to pronounce their opinions on it and declare it wrong, sinful, and spew other negativity, all while looking further into finding the negative aspects of the story without understanding what it really means so they can fuel their actions, says far more about those people than it does Caitlyn and whether she feels finished or satisfied in her transformation.


Enjoy your free speech.
 
Let me know when it becomes a life sentence.
I'll let you know when I can afford to move from the hood, to Buckhead or Gwinette County. Till then I see no change in my near future. Not that I'm complaining nor does it bother me anymore.

Huh, funny. Yeah. If you find exposing your ignorance to the issues that people who suffer from gender dysphoria suffer funny. Let me give you a hint: Even after surgery many still deal with depression and self-doubt. Funny story: Joe is still depressed after all that therapy, guys.
So why not go through therapy to make you happy with what you were born with? So even though they turned into what they want to be, they still suffer depression and self-doubt, so again, that means there is still something wrong in the brain.
So going to your Joe reference, they need more mental therapy not a surgery that they might not like.
Again I believe people with both genitals are the only group that should be doing anything to their genitalia.

The boo whoos of it not "working" would be trying to educate people of just how hard something like this is on someone. That is kind of the whole point of her coming out publicly like this, so people like you have an opportunity to see it in someone with a bit of fame and not wind up being a total rude egg when you meet someone like this in just everyday life.
You need to drop your stereotype of me. I don't run around saying god is going to do XXXXX cause you are homosexual. I don't tell homosexuals they should die, I don't do like that Bakery wherever it was, denying customers service from MY mobile mechanic buisness. Anyone that knows this mechanic knows I think it's wrong, but I acknowledge them how I acknowledge everyone else, by what they want to be called.(name)
Hell I had to do a late night bent tire repair just to arrive at the side of the highway to find a regular in "drag". With quite the surprise, I took a mental note, I did what I had to do, got my $50, and he is still a customer to this day.


Fine, you don't want to hear about it. Don't watch it. You want to know how much I know about this story, other than the fact that Caitlyn was Bruce Jenner? None. Know why? Because it doesn't directly affect me. I heard about the interview, I saw the magazine cover, and I said, "Well, there you go. I hope she is happier now." That was it. I didn't look into it any further.
I had the same reaction, until I found out about the award and then another reality show of the family, Just a lime light stunt. I asked a gay customer what she thought and she agreed that its a PR stunt. Not a ounce of education, just look at me, I'm Caitlyn!

And I am curious what actions you mean exactly and what you mean by "wrong."
Wrong, as in the fact of mutilating the body to please your brain(my opinion of all unnecessary plastic surgery).
Did you know they put people in mental institutions for doing that to themselves?
I'll let a religious person run with the "sinful" line.
The fact that some people found it a trigger for hate, feel the need to pronounce their opinions on it and declare it wrong, sinful, and spew other negativity, all while looking further into finding the negative aspects of the story without understanding what it really means so they can fuel their actions, says far more about those people than it does Caitlyn and whether she feels finished or satisfied in her transformation.
I think the whole everyone has to accept everyone doing what they want will end humanity. If everyone chops off everything, how will we reproduce? A world of test tube babies?


Enjoy your free speech.
:cheers:

edit* And if you didn't notice and with out any warnings, I have begun to use the appropriate pronoun so I don't offend someone and have them do something to themselves cause of what I said, after learning there is at least one transgender/homosexual in here.
 
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I think the whole everyone has to accept everyone doing what they want will end humanity. If everyone chops off everything, how will we reproduce? A world of test tube babies?

Slippery slope fallacy. The same as the one commonly used against homosexuality.

A minority of people are trans, a minority of people are homosexual. Humanity is not in danger just because the two gets accepted.
 
Slippery slope fallacy. The same as the one commonly used against homosexuality.
A minority of people are trans, a minority of people are homosexual. Humanity is not in danger just because the two gets accepted.
edited to remove my stupidity*
 
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So why not go through therapy to make you happy with what you were born with? So even though they turned into what they want to be, they still suffer depression and self-doubt, so again, that means there is still something wrong in the brain.
So going to your Joe reference, they need more mental therapy not a surgery that they might not like.
Again I believe people with both genitals are the only group that should be doing anything to their genitalia.

Please read through all of my messages again, and you will see why they now treat the body over the mind. It was an utter failure when they tried to treat the mind, using such tactics as Electric shock therapy, and even lobotomizing people. This was the same for both Trans individuals, and homosexuals. It caused vastly more problems than it solved. As it stands in the UK and the USA, gender dysphoria has been declassified as a mental illness. And for good reason, as we are not mentally ill.

The process via the NHS here in the uk goes like this.

See ones family GP (family doctor), who then refers you to a gender clinic. The doctors in the gender clinic are psychologists who are specialists in gender. While there they run a series of blood tests to rule out any hormonal imbalances, these results are sent to an endocrinologist. There are a set amount of appointments needed with 2 separate doctors before any medical intervention is taken (hormones and surgery) also. They both have to agree, or access to the treatments can not be obtained. This can be anywhere from 2 appointments, to 10+, all depends on the patient. I personally only needed 2 to access the medical options. A minimum of a year on hormonal treatment is required before any surgery is undertaken on the NHS. This is to allow the person to adjust to the hormonal treatment, and to see if they will be ok with a complete hormonal reversal. When surgery comes into play, the person has to come of said hormones a month before (heightened risk of blood clots and complications during surgery). This is how involved it is here in the uk, and there are a lot of stops and checks in place to make sure the person is mentally stable. Not to mention an insane amount of aftercare provided once everything is done.

As it stands, I have been on the NHS access route for 4 years so far. I am happy and content to stay on this route, as it allows me to digest everything that is going on; and to do the appropriate research. It gives myself, my family, and my friends a chance to adjust.

Now the issues come in here. Some people are unwilling to go through the NHS drawn out procedure for these things, and will often go private. This allows them to steamroll through transition, hormonal treatments and surgery at a very rapid pace. This can have very bad adverse effects, as people are often very unprepared for what it all entails. They often do not feel any better after all is said and done, and are more likely to suffer from depression and have suicidal thoughts, even though they have gotten what they want. With regards to the surgery, some people feel it is the be all and end all of the process. It is far from it in fact. There are also less protections in place by going private, and there is no real access to after care by the doctors who have been involved. As these doctors are often in other country's, such as Thailand and Brazil. Two of the best places in the world for gender related surgery's.

The other thing that can cause issues however, is peoples attitudes towards us. It is fair enough if you do not agree with it, that is fine. But we are not living your life at the end of the day, we are living our own. What we do to live a happy and productive life, is just what we have to do to live a happy and productive life. It does not affect you, it has nothing at all to do with you. So if you do not like it then don't be a tit, don't say anything if you can not say something nice, and just leave us be. We are not hurting you, or anyone else for that matter. It also doesn't matter if we have had surgery or not, as those are private details. You would not like it if someone come up to you, and then asked you very personal questions. Imagine how you would feel if someone come up to you and used pronouns regarding the opposite gender constantly? Or used the wrong name when addressing or talking about you, I bet you wouldn't like that. Now imagine that going on every single day, add in some random name calling. Perhaps even some physical abuse. That goes on constantly, every single day, and it never lets up. That is what happens to us, and that is what we have to live with.

As I have said to you before, and to the others who do not agree with it. Just have some common decency, and treat us how you yourselves would like to be treated.
 
Humanity is in danger? It's been around a long time... what makes you think that homosexuality is new, for example?

That is the thing, none of it is new. It is only in modern times that it has all become an issue. As I pointed out in a previous posting of mine in here, even Ancient Greece had a better understanding of sexuality and gender than we do now. Even going as far as to think of some of their gods as trans or intersex, such as cupid. Even Egypt and ancient Rome had a better understanding of it, with homosexuality and trans been far more common place and accepted than it is now. I will not say it was all rosy, because we do not have all of the details from them times. But what we do know, we know that none of this is a 21st century invention. It has clearly been around as long as the human race has.

People just need to understand that the human race is complicated, always has been and always will be.
 
Everything else I could say has already been said, likely better than I could, but I did want to respond to this.

You need to drop your stereotype of me. I don't run around saying god is going to do XXXXX cause you are homosexual. I don't tell homosexuals they should die, I don't do like that Bakery wherever it was, denying customers service from MY mobile mechanic buisness. Anyone that knows this mechanic knows I think it's wrong, but I acknowledge them how I acknowledge everyone else, by what they want to be called.(name)
Hell I had to do a late night bent tire repair just to arrive at the side of the highway to find a regular in "drag". With quite the surprise, I took a mental note, I did what I had to do, got my $50, and he is still a customer to this day.
I used the term rude egg because to me it is a term used to describe how @Terronium-12 moderates someone who might offend another and be oblivious to the fact. I never thought you went out and called every person you deemed strange out on it or actively discriminated against them.
 
I had the same reaction, until I found out about the award and then another reality show of the family, Just a lime light stunt. I asked a gay customer what she thought and she agreed that its a PR stunt. Not a ounce of education, just look at me, I'm Caitlyn!

Is there some suggestion that Jenner had something to do with rigging the award process?

You appear to be having trouble accepting one of the most basic things in life - that people are different. There exists the type of person so self-conscious that they need to announce their every move. I know, I know..... it sounds oxymoronic, but it's not. If I meet someone and the first thing they say is "Hi, I'm Caitlyn. I'm transgender.", I'm immediately thinking that they are really uncomfortable with the idea that I might be looking at them, analysing what I see. That they desperately just want to get "it" out of the way. That to me is not at all confidence, or an attention grab. Quite the opposite.

It's complex though. One person might walk in to a room full of people and bellow "Check out my new hair do!!", simply because they are excited about their new hair do. Another might do exactly the same thing, but motivated by the fact that they are really self-conscious about having changed their hair. The key is to allow for possibilities, and not just assume that you are the archetypal human, and certainly not that others are your clones.
 
The rest of the ESPY awards are voted on. The Arthur Ashe award, apparently, isn't.

That one business can campaign for an award given by another business is nothing new. Witness the highly successful Oscar campaign for "Shakespeare in Love"... in which the movie and Gwyneth Palthrow took Oscars over "Saving Private Ryan" and Cate Blanchett.

-

Which is why I don't particularly pay attention to the Oscars (the Golden Globe awards are always so much more accurate...).
 
An interesting question: Could Jenner be arrested for appearing topless at a public beach?
 
An interesting question: Could Jenner be arrested for appearing topless at a public beach?
Assuming that Caitlyn, outside of a dress, looks as female as the magazine shoot she did, then yes. But if underneath the dress and makeup she still looks like a guy, no. But that would all be due more to what law enforcement and bystanders think they are looking at.

Removing all other variables, aside from gender, it would depend on whether her legal status is as a female or a male, and that will likely change from state to state.
 
Assuming that Caitlyn, outside of a dress, looks as female as the magazine shoot she did, then yes. But if underneath the dress and makeup she still looks like a guy, no. But that would all be due more to what law enforcement and bystanders think they are looking at.

Removing all other variables, aside from gender, it would depend on whether her legal status is as a female or a male, and that will likely change from state to state.
So if you're a flat chested woman it's ok to go topless?:sly:

Thank God I live in a country where anyone can go topless!!
 
Oh, dear. Just saw the latest promo for Jenner's show - as if it couldn't be bad enough that she's trying to position herself as the spokesperson for the transgender community (which she isn't), now Kim Kardashian features prominently trying to get attention in it.
 
Oh, dear. Just saw the latest promo for Jenner's show - as if it couldn't be bad enough that she's trying to position herself as the spokesperson for the transgender community (which she isn't), now Kim Kardashian features prominently trying to get attention in it.

Even though this has absolutely nothing to do with the Espy awards, I see nothing wrong with her trying to speak out for the transgender community. I watched the first episode of the show with my wife and it's actually not bad. Jenner is using her spotlight to try and speak out against the hate the transgender community gets.

I really think people get all up in arms about the Kardashians, who cares, they're rich and from California, of course they're going to act like that.
 
Even though this has absolutely nothing to do with the Espy awards, I see nothing wrong with her trying to speak out for the transgender community. I watched the first episode of the show with my wife and it's actually not bad. Jenner is using her spotlight to try and speak out against the hate the transgender community gets.

I really think people get all up in arms about the Kardashians, who cares, they're rich and from California, of course they're going to act like that.
Does this "who cares, they're rich and from California" reasoning not also apply to Jenner? Jenner is wealthier than any of the individual Kardashians all by herself.
 
Does this "who cares, they're rich and from California" reasoning not also apply to Jenner? Jenner is wealthier than any of the individual Kardashians all by herself.

Sure, which is why I don't understand why people are making a big deal that she has a TV show. She's trying to do something good for a community that has been the target of hate, if you don't agree with it then just ignore it.
 
Even though this has absolutely nothing to do with the Espy awards, I see nothing wrong with her trying to speak out for the transgender community.
It has everything to do with the Espy awards, since they gave a special one to Jenner.

I can only go by the promotional material on this one, because I don't get the channel that broadcasts "I Am Cait", but from what I have seen so far, the underlying theme is not speaking out for the transgender community, but that Caitlin Jenner is the one doing it. Any benefit to the transgender community is a happy accident - it's another egocentic "reality" show. And given Jenner's position as a celebrity, the show will only ever view transgender issues through the lens of celebrity; it won't address the pain and the confusion and the uncertainty and the difficulties that ordinary transgender people face, because Jenner hasn't experienced them and is unlikely to.

Jenner reminds me of a girl I used to work with when I was working casually. She had graduated top of her class, came highly recommended, and was guaranteed to find a job even with relative inexperience and a competitive market. It was only a matter of time. Meanwhile, the other casuals and I swapped notes on various schools and shared strategies on how to get more work. It was a long, hard slog; very stressful and very time consiming. Every time this girl took part in our discussions, she would say "oh, you just do this, this, this, this and this" (most of which we were already doing), and seemed surprised that we faced difficulties because it was always so easy for her. Jenner is the same - coming to terms with her gender was no doubt difficult for her to do, but given her position, it was almost certainly far easier for her than for most. And since she has no knowledge or experience of the issues ordinary people face, that makes her a poor candidate ambassador. Her celebrity doesn't make up for her inexperience.
 
Any benefit to the transgender community is a happy accident - it's another egocentic "reality" show. And given Jenner's position as a celebrity, the show will only ever view transgender issues through the lens of celebrity; it won't address the pain and the confusion and the uncertainty and the difficulties that ordinary transgender people face, because Jenner hasn't experienced them and is unlikely to.

Jenner reminds me...... (edit - blah, blah, blah). Jenner is the same - coming to terms with her gender was no doubt difficult for her to do, but given her position, it was almost certainly far easier for her than for most. And since she has no knowledge or experience of the issues ordinary people face, that makes her a poor candidate ambassador. Her celebrity doesn't make up for her inexperience.

What utter, utter rubbish. Cruelly dismissive words.

I can understand why children would assume that celebrity life is fun and easy, but us "grown ups" are meant to be a bit smarter and more thoughtful than that. You may have fluked a semblance of truth in this case, I don't know, but you are absolutely way off with your generalisations about the benefits of celebrity status.
 
Considering that your recent posts on a thread discussing the reaction to racist behaviour amounted to victim blaming, I don't think that anything that you say has any redeeming value.
 
Considering that your recent posts on a thread discussing the reaction to racist behaviour amounted to victim blaming, I don't think that anything that you say has any redeeming value.
Happy to talk about that over there, if you can offer some actual content, and this over here, if you can offer some actual content.

You've made some rather strong statements on what Caitlyn has not had to deal with due to being a celebrity. Is there something concrete you can offer up as an explanation, or is it just your opinion that celebrity = dodging the pitfalls of the common human?
 
Is there something concrete you can offer up as an explanation, or is it just your opinion that celebrity = dodging the pitfalls of the common human?
I don't know - do you think that someone who has spent a large portion of their life living as a celebrity is representative of the ordinary petson's experience? Even if you don't think that being a celebrity means "dodging the pitfalls of the common human", surely you must recognise that the celebrity lifestyle is so different to the ordinary person's life that every experience they have is going to be vastly different to the ordinary experience.
 
I can't imagine how large amounts of financial wealth and 30 some odd years of idol worship from being a gold medal Olympiad could possibly affect how to deal with a life changing personal crisis. Surely any regular person going through gender identity issues can have their agent pick up the phone to work out a deal to be given a televised sports award in order to provide advertising lead in for their upcoming TV show that was put into motion following the big publicity that came from a manslaughter case.

After all, who are we to argue with this statement absolutely filled with "actual content":

What utter, utter rubbish. Cruelly dismissive words.

I can understand why children would assume that celebrity life is fun and easy, but us "grown ups" are meant to be a bit smarter and more thoughtful than that. You may have fluked a semblance of truth in this case, I don't know, but you are absolutely way off with your generalisations about the benefits of celebrity status.

.
 
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I like this line best:

You may have fluked a semblance of truth in this case
Ever notice how often I "fluke a semblance of truth"? How many times do I have to do it before it stops being a fluke and stops being a semblance?
 
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