the Espy awards

[Joey D]

I'll use that line next time, when 5 people dissect a post, not directed at one of them. And then proceed to say MY opinion, in a manner, I NEVER said. That's what happens when you post in a forum.
Sorry I was the one person you didn't want to respond.

Anyways, the usual mind game trolls. Everyone has their 2 cents, only one person provided a link to educate the uneducated. Playing mind and word games, doesn't teach me a dang thing. I'm a jerk when people act like jerks.

As a matter of fact, you just made the first ever quote to make my signature.

You're free to give your opinion, as are others, and you can obviously respond as you see fit. I just found it strange that on my first post on the topic, you assumed it to be directed at you when I never quoted anything you said.

 

[Daniel]

As far as medical disorders and sexual preference I have a different feeling.

Identifying as the opposite gender (or any gender outside of the one to which you are assigned at birth) is a medical condition. And the ideal treatment for some of them is to undergo surgery to make them look like the gender they identify as (and like I said before, it is a medical condition. It's not just a decision one makes on a whim). Calling them the gender with which they identity is just a sign of respect. Anatomically? Yes, Caitlyn has XY chromosomes. Socially and culturally she is a woman. Gender is so much more complex than just searching the definition of the word in a dictionary.

 

[ryzno]

You're free to give your opinion, as are others, and you can obviously respond as you see fit. I just found it strange that on my first post on the topic, you assumed it to be directed at you when I never quoted anything you said.

My apologies. Look at it as, the hit dog howling. Sorry.
*back under my rock as usual*

Sorry for the untagged quote and the double post.

Identifying as the opposite gender (or any gender outside of the one to which you are assigned at birth) is a medical condition.

I still can't understand how it is considered a "medical condition", when it could easily be considered a "medical disorder".(IMO)

 

[TenEightyOne]

I have not watched a second of his transition reality show. But I'm sure no where does he mention the medical disorders @Daniel, provided links to.

How do you know?

 

[DG_Silva]

....surely we should be okay with saying that people who have cosmetic surgery to look like a cat actually are cats? If not, why not?

We have this guy:

 

[Famine]

We have this guy:

So if you've praised Caitlyn Jenner's bravery but mocked, say, Jocelyn Wildenstein or Dennis Avner, have a good long look at just how accepting a person you are.

 

[ryzno]

How do you know?

I don't know. I hope you'll be honest if you did watch it, and enlighten me.

 

[Bo]

> Proposes argument riddled with more holes than Leerdammer.
> Gets corrected several times in as concise a manner as possible.
> Is apparently "Getting trolled" by "Know-it-alls".

It's almost starting to feel like the rest of us are getting trolled instead.

 

[Swagger897]

> Proposes argument riddled with more holes than Leerdammer.
> Gets corrected several times in as concise a manner as possible.
> Is apparently "Getting trolled" by "Know-it-alls".

It's almost starting to feel like the rest of us are getting trolled instead.

yup, good read here is all I can say.

 

[DG_Silva]

@Famine, sorry if that came across as mocking, that was not intended, just pointing out an instance. I respect anyone who wants to be who they feel they are. But that does not entitle them to an award for 'bravery' just because they are famous.

 

[Swagger897]

just because they are famous.

which is essentially what has happened here...
If he was a failed Olympian, none of this would have happened..

 

[ryzno]

> Proposes argument riddled with more holes than Leerdammer.
> Gets corrected several times in as concise a manner as possible.
> Is apparently "Getting trolled" by "Know-it-alls".

It's almost starting to feel like the rest of us are getting trolled instead.

Getting nothing but more questions, on a completely different subject from what I said. Just to drag out the fact I don't know much of the subject, but still stand by my belief's about Bruce. Just to have to answer more freaking questions.

Nobody has attempted to answer my last statement! "I still can't understand how it is considered a "medical condition", when it could easily be considered a "medical disorder"." I'm done answering questions, about crap I never said.

All comments were about Bruce, until undeveloped testicals and female breasts, a persons mom and other odd things that have nothing to do with a dang thing I originally said. And I have been trolled into a few convo's to make me look stupid. I'll just keep rollin'

Enjoy your life Bruce and a award you did not deserve...

 

[Bo]

Getting nothing but more questions, on a completely different subject from what I said. Just to drag out the fact I don't know much of the subject, but still stand by my beliefes about Bruce. Just to have to answer more freaking questions.

They're questions which will hopefully make you see differently if you actually bother answering rather than beating around the bush over their "irrelevance".

This doesn't have to be rocket science, but you seem intent on making it so. Even though you admitted you aren't knowledgeable on the subject, you still make bold statements, state you're sticking by them, then don't even bother listening to anything that counteracts your views (you're either "being trolled" or are keen to avoid them like the plague because they're "irrelevant", rather than actually bothering to further the discussion and possibly learn something).

It all smacks of someone who'll clutch at every last straw to try and not be proven wrong.

 

[Swagger897]

They're questions which will hopefully make you see differently if you actually bother answering rather than beating around the bush over their "irrelevance".

This doesn't have to be rocket science, but you seem intent on making it so. Even though you admitted you aren't knowledgeable on the subject, you still make bold statements, state you're sticking by them, then don't even bother listening to anything that counteracts your views (you're either "being trolled" or are keen to avoid them like the plague because they're "irrelevant", rather than actually bothering to further the discussion and possibly learn something).

It all smacks of someone who'll clutch at every last straw to try and not be proven wrong.

As one who agree's with some of the statements @ryzno has made, he is a bit more in the correct.

I've read threads like this and been involved in them too more than a handful of times, and he may seem a bit arrogant in his opinion, I (and probably he) views the same way that you guys are coming off to him. He simply stated what he thinks is true, correct or not, while others begin the endeavor to ask "why do you think that when this is what we think, which we think is more correct?"

Don't say I'm wrong because I'm not, but two opinions are those to their own, and no ones opinion here is fact, but a theory they have in their own minds.

 

[Daniel]

Nobody has attempted to answer my last statement! "I still can't understand how it is considered a "medical condition", when it could easily be considered a "medical disorder"." I'm done answering questions, about crap I never said.

The differences is semantics and connotations. Disorder implies that there is something wrong compared to condition which does not have the same connotations.

Gender dysphoria is also known as Gender Identity Disorder.

For what it's worth, I also think that the award could have gone to others who are still athletes. It's a TV awards show though, they're gonna award the people that will get the most TV buzz.

 

[ryzno]

I already said I was wrong a few times.
I have listened.
I have gave some bad examples.
I learned something last night.
Answered to the best of my knowledge, was told I was wrong.
So I am incorrect and deserve the 20 question game again.
Throw all the non-sense out the window I said last night, and tell me why you can't accept the fact I believe what he is doing to himself is wrong?

10-80-1 still hasn't told me what Bruce said. Regardless he showed no signs of female breasts, and his package seems to work fine considering the off spring he produced. So tell me how the 2 links provided have anything relevant to the convo.

I am not going to read things so you can get me to say yes, about a subject that might not have anything to do with Bruce and my opinion. So If you or anyone reading this can prove he has one of the examples provided in the medical "conditions" mentioned here. Link me up. If you can't, you have as much of a argument as me.

 

[Daniel]

Regardless he showed no signs of female breasts, and his package seems to work fine considering the off spring he produced. So tell me how the 2 links provided have anything relevant to the convo.

I am not going to read things so you can get me to say yes, about a subject that might not have anything to do with Bruce and my opinion. So If you or anyone reading this can prove he has one of the examples provided in the medical "conditions" mentioned here. Link me up. If you can't, you have as much of a argument as me.

I was using CAIS and De la Chapelle syndrome to compare them to what Jenner has, which is what is (medically) known as gender dysphoria. In both cases they are genotypically one sex while living as another.

As I said before, gender is a lot more complex than just male/female. Search a bit into the existence of third gender people like hijras, fakaleiti and two-spirits.

For what it's worth, continuing to use "Bruce" and "he" is kinda belittling.

 

[ryzno]

So what is a PC way of acknowledging "Caitlyn" without using a feminine term or comprising my belief?

 

[GTPorsche]

There's no need to be "PC" about it. Her name is Caitlyn.

 

[Daniel]

So what is a PC way of acknowledging "Caitlyn" without using a feminine term or comprising my belief?

You don't have to compromise your belief. You do however have to realise the difference between sex (biological) and gender (cultural). Biologically she was born male. Culturally she is a woman.

 

[ryzno]

You don't have to compromise your belief. You do however have to realise the difference between sex (biological) and gender (cultural). Biologically she was born male. Culturally she is a woman.

I am ending now before I get banned. The word "Culturally" is the problem.

 

[Zuku]

So what is a PC way of acknowledging "Caitlyn" without using a feminine term or comprising my belief?

I've read through this thread man listen you're okay calling whatever you want my friend. In my mind and what my eyes see is a he/man named Bruce. That is all.

 

[Dan]

Throw all the non-sense out the window I said last night, and tell me why you can't accept the fact I believe what he is doing to himself is wrong?

Why do you think it's wrong?

 

[Ialyrn]

 

[Daniel]

Why do you think it's wrong?

Because it unnatural, duh.

 

[Lain]

Basically the whole issue (the Bruce Jenner one, not the Espy one) boils down to the divide between sex and gender.

Gender is whether you're feminine/masculine. Sex is whether you have a penis or a vagina.

And unless we're trying to start some 🤬, the pronoun we usually use to refer to a person is based on sex rather than gender. You don't run around calling feminine men "she", do you (again, unless you're trying to start something)? So the question is... do we make an exception for people wtih GID? Do we update the definitions of the pronouns for more politically correct usage?

Most of the symptoms on the Wikipedia page for GID are just the results of social rejection/bullying. Y'know... the whole "you're a boy but you play with dolls, so people give you crap for it" thing. Is the real issue therefore not rooted in the social expectations of men to act like men, and women to act like women? GID-afflicted individuals, to me, seem like they aren't so much dissatisfied with their sex or gender as they are dissatisfied with how they're treated because their gender doesn't match up with their sex.

If that's the case, there's two ways we can go about addressing this: Gender dysphoric individuals can change their apparent sex and society can to try to become accepting of them, and/or society can simply try to become more accepting of feminine men and masculine women. I think the latter would be easier to accomplish.

 

[Ialyrn]

Basically the whole issue (the Bruce Jenner one, not the Espy one) boils down to the divide between sex and gender.

Gender is whether you're feminine/masculine. Sex is whether you have a penis or a vagina.

And unless we're trying to start some 🤬, the pronoun we usually use to refer to a person is based on sex rather than gender. You don't run around calling feminine men "she", do you (again, unless you're trying to start something)? So the question is... do we make an exception for people wtih GID? Do we update the definitions of the pronouns for more politically correct usage?

Most of the symptoms on the Wikipedia page for GID are just the results of social rejection/bullying. Y'know... the whole "you're a boy but you play with dolls, so people give you crap for it" thing. Is the real issue therefore not rooted in the social expectations of men to act like men, and women to act like women? GID-afflicted individuals, to me, seem like they aren't so much dissatisfied with their sex or gender as they are dissatisfied with how they're treated because their gender doesn't match up with their sex.

If that's the case, there's two ways we can go about addressing this: Gender dysphoric individuals can change their apparent sex and society can to try to become accepting of them, and/or society can simply try to become more accepting of feminine men and masculine women. I think the latter would be easier to accomplish.

Except it isn't a case of been "feminine men" for trans women, or "masculine women" for trans men. They are not the same thing at all. As for the correct pronouns to use, it is whatever you are asked to use. Regardless of people's beliefs on the matter, just show some common decency and treat everyone how you yourselves would like to be treated.

And to some others who seem to think it is a nurture type thing, and it is all caused by the environment that individual grew up in. This was disproved a long time ago.

There was a case of twin boys born, both where circumcised. But there was an accident, and one of the boys ended up with badly mutilated in that area. It was ultimately decided that the baby boy would be raised a girl, and was followed closely by the medical doctors involved. The boy, now a girl grew up, but was never happy. In their teens it came out she was born male, it was explained about the accident. This individual then transitioned to been male again, and continued on with his life...... until he later killed himself at the age of 38. This is the result of attempts nurture in direct terms to gender. An individual knows what gender they are deep down, and this isn't just some rubbish trans individuals spout out to try to gain acceptance. You all know if you are male or female, it is just luck that your body matches up with how you feel and see yourself.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332396/Bruce-Reimer-Tragic-twin-boy-brought-girl.html

I also believe that there was some mention of treating the mind, not 100% sure as I read this thread more than a few hours ago on a mobile phone. And I can not be bothered to read through it again to check, so.....

In terms of treating the mind, this tactic was tried quite some time ago. Trans individuals, and even homosexuals went through the same ordeal in this regard, just so you know. They was subjected to invasive medical procedures, usually conducted by psychiatrist in mental institutions. These "procedures" ranged from electro shock therapy, to full on lobotomy's. And all in the name of "curing" someone of what was believed to be a psychological disorder. Some people even went on to spend the rest of there lives either a living vegetable through these procedures..... or as a vegetable because of the high dose of drugs they was given. One thing became apparent though, these doctors where not able to treat the mind; as there is nothing wrong with the minds of these individuals. But because of the way trans people are treated by society at large, it can result in people becoming depressed. Even to the point of suicide.

 

[Lain]

^ Nature and nurture both play a role. It's not one or the other.

 

[Encyclopedia]

So what is a PC way of acknowledging "Caitlyn" without using a feminine term or comprising my belief?

I'm pretty sure she's legally changed her name to Caitlyn so not calling her Bruce would be a start.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So what is a PC way of acknowledging "Caitlyn" without using a feminine term or comprising my belief?

I don't think you understand what you even mean by "PC", it just seems to be a Monica for something you disagree with... the problem is that you can't really say why.

Are you so hung up on gender-specific names that somebody wanting to call themself "Caitlin" is so abhorrent? I don't use my "Sunday" name, people call me a shortened version of it. That must be wrong too, according to the hideous glimpses I've had of the system? If I wanted to change my name to something else entirely, why shouldn't I?