the Espy awards

[Azuremen]

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT UTTERLY RIDICULOUS CONCEPT AND BRUCE JENNER'S UTTERLY RIDICULOUS CONCEPT.

Isn't this kind of the attitude fundamentalists adopt about things like evolution? Make some sort of mediocre analogy and then scream about it from there?

And thanks @Famine for bringing up the shining beacon of my city in the international news spotlight

 

[FoolKiller]

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT UTTERLY RIDICULOUS CONCEPT AND BRUCE JENNER'S UTTERLY RIDICULOUS CONCEPT.

Yes, there is. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it the way you want it to be.

I want to be rich

They don't want it. They want to identify with their genetic gender. Many try to live as their genetic gender for years, become depressed, suicidal, get caught in drugs and alcohol, and perform many other self-destructive behaviors.

You are acting as if they chose to be this way. They did not.


And I know many people have their own opinions on how you should refer to them, but keep in mind that they are struggling mentally and emotionally. You make their depression worse. You bring all their worst fears to life. You are hitting them where they are already in pain.

You might be correct and you might mean no harm, but that does not make you any less cruel.

I hope for their sake they never have to meet someone who will treat them with the lack of understanding some have shown here. No matter how the statements are meant, they will be haunted by them long after you are gone.



As for the ESPY Award; I believe that Caitlyn Jenner won it because of the current political and media climate. I believe most winners of awards like this have some form of social trend in their favor.

 

[wfooshee]

Have you tried looking rich, acting rich, and living the life of a rich person? That's probably where you went wrong.

Well, not being able to afford, or even rent, a yacht or private jet for a sojourn to Monte Carlo..... :-)

But someone who meets me in person, not knowing anything about me, will have no idea how close to poverty I actually am.

The question remains, how the hell would an appearance have any bearing on fact??? I could go to a theater and have them set me up with all kinds of things, from clothes to jewelry, maybe a car, but none of it is real.

Neither is saying "I wanna be a girl!"

Isn't this kind of the attitude fundamentalists adopt about things like evolution? Make some sort of mediocre analogy and then scream about it from there?

No, because facts are facts. The dude is a dude! X chromosomes all over him. Hormones and costumes don't change it.

I'm no fundamentalist, either, spouting a belief system without foundation, rather than verifiable facts. Bruce Jenner's DNA shows him to be a male human. Period. Why should I call him "her?"

 

[FoolKiller]

Neither is saying "I wanna be a girl!"

That's not what they're saying. That's what you think they are saying. And that would be wrong.

Do you also believe homosexuality is a choice?

 

[Carbonox]

No, because facts are facts. The dude is a dude! X chromosomes all over him. Hormones and costumes don't change it.

*cough* Y.

 

[DK]

From what I've been reading on gender dysphoria, it doesn't look like its cause has been conclusively determined, but it does seem like it's something to do with brain structure and genetics.

 

[Tornado]

I'll give you the last one, but what's the difference between the first 3?

The same difference between saying a woman is promiscuous or saying a woman has several sexual partners and saying a woman is a whore or a slut. The same difference between saying a man sleeps with other men or saying a man is a homosexual and saying a man is a faggot or a queer.

The first three are all essentially saying that Caitlyn isn't actually a woman, but just dressing and acting as one.

And? By itself believing that to be true isn't a hateful act.

Why is calling her a drag queen malicious, but calling her transition an expensive masquerade or saying "he's still a he" isn't?

Because the first one is a deliberate pejorative, and the latter two are simply stating beliefs.

It's certainly more harsh to say "well endowed drag queen", but to me the underlying meaning is pretty much the same, the intent is to diminish her transition as nothing more than a facade which isn't worthy of our respect.

And to me that's a rather dramatic overreaction to benign statements.

If people make an honest mistake or ask an unknowingly rude question it's one thing. I have a really hard time believing that "he's still a he" or "an expensive masquerade" are said in good faith as a way to gain further understanding, or out of an honest mistake.

What if they simply don't believe Bruce Jenner is actually a woman?

 

[Azuremen]

No, because facts are facts. The dude is a dude! X chromosomes all over him. Hormones and costumes don't change it.

I'm no fundamentalist, either, spouting a belief system without foundation, rather than verifiable facts. Bruce Jenner's DNA shows him to be a male human. Period. Why should I call him "her?"

Probably the same reason you refer to people by the titles they have or request in society, rather than calling everyone "dude."

You don't have to understand something to not be a jerk about it.

 

[FoolKiller]

From what I've been reading on gender dysphoria, it doesn't look like its cause has been conclusively determined, but it does seem like it's something to do with brain structure and genetics.

I've been listening to this lecture series (Yes, I listen to college-level lectures for fun) and the findings of behavioral genetics really go against commonly held beliefs of human behavior. Many things that we believe must be a result of environmental factors (nurture) turn out to be a result of both genetic (nature) and environment, including opinions and beliefs (40% genetic). I have been having my mind blown repeatedly while listening to this.

 

[wfooshee]

*cough* Y.

Oops.....

And I really don't think I'm being a jerk about it. Genes are genes. He's a guy. Period.

 

[TenEightyOne]

...guy. Period.

Bad choice of words, maybe

 

[fortbo]

Would male be more acceptable????

 

[TenEightyOne]

Would male be more acceptable????

Maybe it's a British-only joke... period means that Aunt Mable is visiting, that the decorators are in, that the flags are out, that the rooster is singing...

 

[fortbo]

Oh, I see what you did now. I thought you were talking about guy, not period.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Maybe it's a British-only joke... period means that Aunt Mable is visiting, that the decorators are in, that the flags are out, that the rooster is singing...

Spoiler

 

[Maccer_42]

I know nothing of the ESPY awards, the only reason I had even heard of it because I'm a fan of Mixed Martial Arts and this interview popped up on a MMA forum that I frequent.

Skip to about 2:20 to see the funny.

 

[FoolKiller]

And I really don't think I'm being a jerk about it. Genes are genes. He's a guy. Period.

So, you are using language and addressing them in a way that may harm them on a psychological level, know that you are doing it and how it affects them, and think you aren't being a jerk about it?

It is the equivalent of constantly telling gay people that their choice of lifestyle is an abomination and they are going straight to hell for being such a sinner.

You might not see it that way, might not mean it that way, but that is how they feel it.

 

[wfooshee]

....... but that is how they feel it.

So now we're back to watching what you say because you might offend someone.....

A fact has no feelings, and a fact should not be able to offend. When a person is male, they are male.

I mean no offense to him by it, but I will go to my grave thinking of him as Bruce Jenner, a man. He is not a woman named Caitlin, he's a man dressing as a woman and calling himself Caitlin. Whatever reason he has for doing so is not anything I can be bothered to care about, nor can I be expected to play along when I know he's not a woman. It astonishes me that people are expected to play along with it, and that so many are willing to.

 

[mustafur]

We are soo far away from respecting Trans people in this world it's not funny.

I think this topic alone kind of justifies the award.

Even if it came about in a manufactured way: http://m.chron.com/sports/article/Report-Caitlyn-Jenner-s-camp-pitched-ESPY-award-6386089.php

 

[FoolKiller]

So now we're back to watching what you say because you might offend someone.....

Someone who is depressed and is part of a group with a 40% suicide rate is not just being offended. It's like reminding someone of their most traumatic experience every time you talk to them. Your problem is you keep acting like they are making a choice and the concern is them having their feelings hurt. It isn't close. This isn't a teenager wishing to be called G-Dawg. This isn't even a little person asking you to not call them a midget.

A fact has no feelings, and a fact should not be able to offend. When a person is male, they are male.

Fine, lets' talk facts.

Here is a list of 15 studies that indicate that gender dysphoria is biological in origin. It isn't a choice or a want. Their identity in their brain does not match their physical gender. The physiological makeup in their brain creates a psyche that does not match the anatomical body parts down below. The brain is female while the body is male. You are picking which you think is important to you, because, as you say:

Whatever reason he has for doing so is not anything I can be bothered to care about,

We noticed. And I had a flashback to my conservative upbringing. "I don't care. It's just wrong."

nor can I be expected to play along when I know he's not a woman. It astonishes me that people are expected to play along with it, and that so many are willing to.

The fact that you talk about it as if it is play acting is not exactly gaining sympathy for your point.

 

[Daniel]

Here is a list of 15 studies that indicate that gender dysphoria is biological in origin. It isn't a choice or a want. Their identity in their brain does not match their physical gender. The physiological makeup in their brain creates a psyche that does not match the anatomical body parts down below. The brain is female while the body is male. You are picking which you think is important to you, because, as you say

Adding to this, I'm pretty sure it's easier to reduce dysphoria through hormone replacement therapy, gender reassignment surgery etc. than to 'cure' it from someone by simply giving them some medicine for the dysphoria to simply go away.

 

[The Bman]

All good for Caitlyn Jenner to do what was best for her and I support that. I do think Galloway or Hill should have won the courage award, however.

 

[ryzno]

From what I've been reading on gender dysphoria, it doesn't look like its cause has been conclusively determined, but it does seem like it's something to do with brain structure and genetics.

*I am not saying this is what you meant DK.
Ok, so if you take that info and throw all the PC crowd out the window.
I take that to mean(I am gonna simplify what I mean). There is something wrong with their; wiring, the sensors or the computer. So that means there is a fault in their system somewhere.

As far as genetics, I wouldn't be surprised if the repeated insect, in human's life, help screw us up.

(side note) The brain believes what YOU train it to believe. If a malfunctioning sensor teaches a computer the wrong thing, it will learn the wrong things... That doesn't mean a Duck is a Chicken, just cause a bad sensor said so.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Ok, so if you take that info and throw all the PC crowd out the window.

Is that the crowd that says that somebody can make choices about themselves and that they shouldn't be dictated to by you?

You clearly have a social idea of what a man or a woman is/should be. The difficulty with your preconception is that women are very different in different societies, and so are men. Must be something wrong with them.

So that means there is a fault in their system somewhere.

Ah, of course.

As far as genetics, I wouldn't be surprised if the repeated insect, in human's life, help screw us up.

What on Earth does that mean?

 

[JKgo]

...The discussions have been lively and fun, but...hmm.

Maybe it's time to rename the thread title to "Correct way of calling Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner plus other related PC stuff".

 

[ryzno]

Is that the crowd that says that somebody can make choices about themselves and that they shouldn't be dictated to by you?

No the crowd that wants to call me a sexist, homophobe or a bigot.

You clearly have a social idea of what a man or a woman is/should be. The difficulty with your preconception is that women are very different in different societies, and so are men. Must be something wrong with them.

There is something wrong. When a group of people believe a physically born male, can cut off his penis and whatever else is done, but, he(as I said born male!), can not carry nor deliver a baby, and then, call him a woman, that is a problem... That's the one thing men can't do, that a biological woman can. Regardless of who you ask, where ever you want in the world.

Ah, of course.

What on Earth does that mean?

The link talks about genetic problems. Considering Bruce is white(although I'm sure all races have had incest in the "Dark Ages"), anyways, it's been proven that incest can and has caused, what I call genetic problems.

Also I am not trying to dictate anyone. They can believe what they want. It still doesn't make a Duck a Chicken in my opinion...

 

[TenEightyOne]

No the crowd that wants to call me a sexist, homophobe or a bigot.

If the wig fits.

There is something wrong. When a group of people believe a physically born male, can cut off his penis and whatever else is done, but, can not carry nor deliver a baby, a woman, that is a problem... That's the one thing men can't do, that a biological woman can. Regardless of who you ask, where ever you want in the world.

I'll ask my adoptive mother about that tomorrow. Should I pass on your best wishes to her in her capacity as a freak?

The link talks about genetic problems. Considering Bruce is white(although I'm sure all races have had incest in the "Dark Ages"), anyways, it's been proven that incest can and has caused, what I call genetic problems.

You actually said "insect", not "incest". I'd laugh in other circumstances. To be clear; you blame trans issues on incest, right?

Also I am not trying to dictate anyone. They can believe what they want. It still doesn't make a Duck a Chicken in my opinion...

Thank you, Professor Sanders.

 

[Encyclopedia]

There is something wrong. When a group of people believe a physically born male, can cut off his penis and whatever else is done, but, can not carry nor deliver a baby, a woman, that is a problem... That's the one thing men can't do, that a biological woman can. Regardless of who you ask, where ever you want in the world.

So infertile women aren't actually women?

 

[ryzno]

If the wig fits.

I am what ever you say I am.

I'll ask my adoptive mother about that tomorrow. Should I pass on your best wishes to her in her capacity as a freak?

What does your adopted mom have to do with a thing I said? And I never said a word about anyone being a freak.

Sorry I don 't answer like I have a PhD. But you know exactly what I meant. Read my other response. And give her my best wishes, for being a mom that actually cared for a child. Let's see if you can catch a drift.

You actually said "insect", not "incest". I'd laugh in other circumstances. To be clear; you blame trans issues on incest, right?

Quick Draw aren't you... Who know's, like I said though, it has been proven to mess up genetics. Find a flaw in that comment.

Thank you, Professor Saunders.

You're welcome.

So infertile women aren't actually women?

Y'all are like little kid's aren't you?

 

[Famine]

Y'all are like little kid's aren't you?

It's a valid response. If this is what you actually think:

There is something wrong. When a group of people believe a physically born male, can cut off his penis and whatever else is done, but, can not carry nor deliver a baby, a woman, that is a problem... That's the one thing men can't do, that a biological woman can. Regardless of who you ask, where ever you want in the world.

... then you're dividing the genders into those that can have babies (women) and those that can't (men). Even if we chuck menopause out of the window, there's a great deal of reasons for biological women being infertile and unable to conceive, gestate or deliver a child of any kind. We don't say that they aren't women.