Transgender Thread.

[squadops]

I know what consciousness is. What I'm unclear on is why it has any bearing on being able to talk about gender.

Being able to talk about gender? what?

Your consciousness most likely helps you define your gender if we are speaking of emotions and nuance, then again you didn't like my black and white version either. I'm sure to you their must be some strictly scientific definition for whatever type of gender someone has chosen.

 

[Joel]

It's not mistaken, and i'm not trying to invalidate who anyone is. I'm trying to say that by declaring yourself "female" or "male" you're forcing a social construct on those words that shouldn't be there. You're implicitly accepting that it's not correct to call the Miss Tiffany contestant male, and why? What's wrong with a man looking like that? Nothing. There's no reason to declare a gender, just be yourself.

Identity =/= roles. The reason to declare a gender is to alleviate issues of gender dysphoria which is a very harmful thing to deal with. If you wake up in the morning and feel you are a woman and when you look in the mirror you see a bushy beard and broad shoulders, it's deeply distressing. Then everywhere you go you still feel like a woman but everyone calls you "Mr.", and uses male pronouns talking about you. Try to imagine how that feels, it's not the same thing as someone who wears drag or cross-dresses, you honest to god feel like that's who you are but can't escape from being called something you aren't.

There's definitely a discussion to be had about the implications of trans people expressing their identity through gender roles, but I don't think it means being trans is inherently bigoted or that trans people are perpetuating these things. For a trans woman, the choice might be to wear a dress and identify as a woman, or to deal with a feeling of dread and disgust every time they look in the mirror. The trans woman I know always dressed fairly feminine even before she began to transition and identify as a woman. It's not so much "I'll wear a dress because I'm a woman" as "I'm a woman and I'll wear a dress".

Think about how you feel wearing a suit or even just clean casual clothes that fit well compared to an old T-shirt and sweatpants. Now imagine if every day you woke up feeling like you were wearing a suit but when you look in the mirror you see a ratty T-shirt and no matter what you do, you can't change it and people still see you as someone wearing a T-shirt and sweatpants. It isn't about wanting to fulfill the roles of people who wear suits, or wanting to act like someone who stereotypically wears a suit, it's about feeling like you're a suit wearing kind of person and having to deal with that mismatch when you look in the mirror every day.

It's just something that people feel in their hearts is the way they are, much like sexuality. We don't have an "If X gene then Y sexuality" biological understanding of sexuality, but we do accept it as something mostly innate that people feel. I could never tell you of a specific moment I started feeling like a man, I just am. If you asked me if I'm a man or a woman I would tell you instantly that I am a man without having to think about it. I can't explain why, I just feel that way and that's it. It's the same with trans people, only their body doesn't match their internal gender identity, and dressing in a more feminine/masculine way is a way of alleviating the stress that comes along with that.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Thread should have a trigger warning.

Edit: found safe link.
http://nonbinary.org/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities

My favourite is contigender:

1. a gender that flows through space and time and constantly changes, always moving 2. a gender of or related to space and time. this gender can be used by itself or along with another gender to describe its state of movement e.g. a conti agender or a contigender demigirl."

 

[Danoff]

Identity =/= roles. The reason to declare a gender is to alleviate issues of gender dysphoria which is a very harmful thing to deal with. If you wake up in the morning and feel you are a woman and when you look in the mirror you see a bushy beard and broad shoulders, it's deeply distressing. Then everywhere you go you still feel like a woman but everyone calls you "Mr.", and uses male pronouns talking about you. Try to imagine how that feels, it's not the same thing as someone who wears drag or cross-dresses, you honest to god feel like that's who you are but can't escape from being called something you aren't.

Think about how you feel wearing a suit or even just clean casual clothes that fit well compared to an old T-shirt and sweatpants. Now imagine if every day you woke up feeling like you were wearing a suit but when you look in the mirror you see a ratty T-shirt and no matter what you do, you can't change it and people still see you as someone wearing a T-shirt and sweatpants. It isn't about wanting to fulfill the roles of people who wear suits, or wanting to act like someone who stereotypically wears a suit, it's about feeling like you're a suit wearing kind of person and having to deal with that mismatch when you look in the mirror every day.

It's just something that people feel in their hearts is the way they are, much like sexuality. We don't have an "If X gene then Y sexuality" biological understanding of sexuality, but we do accept it as something mostly innate that people feel. I could never tell you of a specific moment I started feeling like a man, I just am. If you asked me if I'm a man or a woman I would tell you instantly that I am a man without having to think about it. I can't explain why, I just feel that way and that's it. It's the same with trans people, only their body doesn't match their internal gender identity, and dressing in a more feminine/masculine way is a way of alleviating the stress that comes along with that.

Gender=/=personal appearance.

If a guy wants to wear a dress, that's nobody's business but his. It's up to each of us to look the way we want to look. The part that bothers me is when we start insisting on calling that guy a woman. Why? Why is it not ok for a man to wear a dress? Why do we need to pretend he's a woman? Why should we reclassify him as a woman when he gets breast implants or removes his penis? Did he change his biological makeup? Not really. Why does anyone care whether they're called man or woman, or Mr. or Mrs.? I don't. But I don't have wild notions about what a man or woman is supposed to be, supposed to look like, supposed to act like. So I don't care which one I am. Being hung up on whether you're called a man or woman gives that classification a power that it should not have. Lots of women are masculine, lots of men are feminine, let's not pretend that there is such a thing as "man" and "woman" and acknowledge that there is a wide range of people with varying degrees of both in different interesting combinations.

There's definitely a discussion to be had about the implications of trans people expressing their identity through gender roles, but I don't think it means being trans is inherently bigoted or that trans people are perpetuating these things. For a trans woman, the choice might be to wear a dress and identify as a woman, or to deal with a feeling of dread and disgust every time they look in the mirror.

Again, what does the dress have to do with anything? To be genetically male and insist that the world call you female is to claim that it matters. Wear what you want, identify with whoever you want, but don't be ashamed of being a man who likes to look and act like a "woman". There's nothing wrong with being genetically male and appearing female, no reason for a genetically male individual to pretend that he is not - because you can be genetically male and feel like you think genetically female people are "supposed" to feel.

 

[Dan]

I'm not fooled for a second that you're only talking about "crazy tumblr people".

I was. I don't see a problem with poking fun at people who go for gold in the oppression olympics just to get attention. A number of my real-life friends are transgender and I give them full support to be the person they truly feel like they are. I'm sure that most of them don't appreciate their struggles being undermined by morons on the internet with massive victim complexes trying to make themselves feel special. In a private conversation for LGBT GTP'ers, I've offered advice for users questioning their gender identities and they've accepted it. I don't want to chastise people suffering from real problems.

I'll fully admit that I'm an idiot, but it looks like quite a few users here agree with me (17 at the time of writing), thinking that some of the things SJW's and "otherkin" people have created is utter bull.

Since I should actually contribute to the discussion, I don't believe there's more than two genders. You can identify as male, female, both, or neither. To elaborate on "neither," someone could feel like they share characteristics of both genders, but without having more characteristics than the other. A 50/50 split, so to say. Until there's proof of an actual third gender, I won't believe in one. Sorry if I offend you.

 

[Dennisch]

I'm sure that most of them don't appreciate their struggles being undermined by morons on the internet with massive victim complexes trying to make themselves feel special.

This. My girlfriend's best friend is transgender and that could be her words exactly.

 

[squadops]

SJW's FTW

 

[Brend]

Wow more hilarious and totally original jokes about attack helicopters, dolphins, and tumblr!

This thread is about gender identities, human gender identities and we're getting tired old jokes about mayonnaise and attack helicopters. I'm not fooled for a second that you're only talking about "crazy tumblr people". Even if you were, we're talking about a site where literal teenagers are growing up and finding their identity. Think about why your innate response to the very idea of transgendered people is "LOL tumblr" and a straw man of people identifying as inanimate objects.

I don't want to live in a world where we chastise 15 year olds for saying something a little silly while they're trying to figure out who they are.

Love how a joke from a Twitter account of a fictional video game character can rile people up so much. It's just a laugh honestly, if you feel the need to write paragraphs of sympathetic bawwwwing because of a little joke I'd hate to see what happens when someone really does discriminate on someone's identity.

Also Tumblr isn't full of 15 year old exclusively so way to try and twist your argument into place by playing the 'muh innocence' card.

 

[Joel]

Gender=/=personal appearance.
If a guy wants to wear a dress, that's nobody's business but his. It's up to each of us to look the way we want to look. The part that bothers me is when we start insisting on calling that guy a woman.

"We" don't insist on calling someone a man or a woman (or at least I would hope not) if that's not how they want to identify themselves.

Why? Why is it not ok for a man to wear a dress? Why do we need to pretend he's a woman? Why should we reclassify him as a woman when he gets breast implants or removes his penis? Did he change his biological makeup? Not really.

There's nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress. A man who wears a dress is not a trans woman, and a woman who works on cars is not a trans man. We're talking about two different things here.

Why does anyone care whether they're called man or woman, or Mr. or Mrs.? I don't.

Trans people care. The trans people I know described a feeling of disgust and unease when they looked in the mirror and saw a body that didn't match their self image, or were identified by others as Mr. when they feel like Ms. I don't believe you wouldn't care. You wouldn't care if everyone in your life started calling you Danielle, and your wife left you because she's straight and wants to be married to man? You wouldn't care if everyone around you called you a woman and got angry with you when you said you're a man?

But I don't have wild notions about what a man or woman is supposed to be, supposed to look like, supposed to act like. So I don't care which one I am. Being hung up on whether you're called a man or woman gives that classification a power that it should not have.

That's great, that means you're comfortable with your identity and who you are. Others are not so lucky.

Again, what does the dress have to do with anything? To be genetically male and insist that the world call you female is to claim that it matters. Wear what you want, identify with whoever you want, but don't be ashamed of being a man who likes to look and act like a "woman". There's nothing wrong with being genetically male and appearing female, no reason for a genetically male individual to pretend that he is not - because you can be genetically male and feel like you think genetically female people are "supposed" to feel.

There already are tons of men who do this. Dressing in drag is not the same as being trans, women who play rugby and work on cars are still women. You said there's no "reason" for it as if this is a conscious choice people are making or something that can be addressed rationally. If trans people could just be comfortable as their current gender why wouldn't they? Don't you think they've already tried that?

It's not about feeling how women are supposed to feel, it's about a specific person feeling like they specifically are a woman and wanting to identify as one because their current identity causes them distress (gender dysphoria).

 

[A2K78]

Who is this?

Anyhow 2, anymore than that is a rejection of science.

 

[TS050]

-

 

[squadops]

Who is this?

Someone with a dingle dangle.

 

[Com Fox]

I believe you can identify yourself as what ever you want to be, however the constructs of biology severely limit any sort of real shout of defining what your 'sex' is.

Personally, I'm with Sonic on this one:

http://ageof****lords.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/sonic-original-twit.png

That actually makes me think about how people somehow identify themselves as Animals as if that is gender despite Animals having genders themselves.

 

[Lizard]

That actually makes me think about how people somehow identify themselves as Animals as if that is gender despite Animals having genders themselves.

I don't remember anyone doing that. I know about furies but that is more of a fetish than an identity isn't it?

 

[Daniel]

I don't remember anyone doing that. I know about furies but that is more of a fetish than an identity isn't it?

Nope. It's a thing.

 

[Danoff]

"We" don't insist on calling someone a man or a woman (or at least I would hope not) if that's not how they want to identify themselves.

There's nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress. A man who wears a dress is not a trans woman, and a woman who works on cars is not a trans man. We're talking about two different things here.

Are we?

Why should we reclassify him as a woman when he gets breast implants or removes his penis?

Trans people care. The trans people I know described a feeling of disgust and unease when they looked in the mirror and saw a body that didn't match their self image,

Nobody's saying they shouldn't change their appearance if they want to.

or were identified by others as Mr. when they feel like Ms.

It's not about feeling how women are supposed to feel, it's about a specific person feeling like they specifically are a woman and wanting to identify as one because their current identity causes them distress (gender dysphoria).

What exactly does a Ms. feel like? What makes them feel like they are a woman? Why can they not be a man with feminine features? Why does altering your genitalia mean you're closer to the other gender? Or altering your dress? Or altering your mannerisms? Why does any of that result in being associated with the other gender? If a man has trauma or disease that causes his genitalia to be removed or rendered inoperable is he less of a man? Why then does intentionally removing it or altering it make you less of a man? If a man wants to wear a dress does that make him less of man? If a man wants to be with other men does that make him less of man? What exactly does it mean to be a man or a woman? There is no answer to this question, yet the transgender folks who insist on a the other label seem to think they have a very good idea of what a man or woman is supposed to be.

In order to say that you feel like you are a woman you must know what it feels like to be a woman... but there is no such thing.

I don't believe you wouldn't care. You wouldn't care if everyone in your life started calling you Danielle,

I go by lots of version of Dan. I go by Dan, Daniel, Dan-o, big D, and to some very good friends I go by "big gay Dan". It's a term of endearment.

and your wife left you because she's straight and wants to be married to man?

Of course if my wife left me I'd care. That's absurd. It also has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

You wouldn't care if everyone around you called you a woman and got angry with you when you said you're a man?

I wouldn't insist I was a man if everyone around me insisted I was a woman. As long as I'm free to express myself and behave how I want I don't care what you call me.

That's great, that means you're comfortable with your identity and who you are. Others are not so lucky.

...and I should tiptoe around that?

If trans people could just be comfortable as their current gender why wouldn't they? Don't you think they've already tried that?

If they're uncomfortable with their gender it's because they're defining it in a narrow way. How can you be uncomfortable being a man or woman when you acknowledge that there is such a massive range of both that neither are well defined?

Who is this?

That's a Miss Tiffany Universe Contestant, which is a transgender beauty pageant.

 

[Joel]

A number of my real-life friends are transgender and I give them full support to be the person they truly feel like they are. I'm sure that most of them don't appreciate their struggles being undermined by morons on the internet with massive victim complexes trying to make themselves feel special. In a private conversation for LGBT GTP'ers, I've offered advice for users questioning their gender identities and they've accepted it. I don't want to chastise people suffering from real problems.

I'm happy to hear it, and glad to hear you're supportive of the people in your life. I apologize for misreading you.

I was. I don't see a problem with poking fun at people who go for gold in the oppression olympics just to get attention.

I'll fully admit that I'm an idiot, but it looks like quite a few users here agree with me (17 at the time of writing), thinking that some of the things SJW's and "otherkin" people have created is utter bull.

Fair enough, but nobody believes "mayonnaise" is a gender identity and I don't think it's a reasonable thing to bring up in a discussion about gender identities. I know you personally don't use it in reference to transgendered people but the reason I bring this up is that this vague idea of "tumblr" is suspiciously present in most discussions online of trans people. It's the same with the attack helicopter thing, that didn't originate from tumblr, it originate from a straw man someone made up and has been repeated ad nauseum.

It's just very frustrating to me that even in a site like this which is basically the best I've seen in terms of discussions remaining civil, any mention of trans people anywhere on the site starts a joke train of the same old tired stuff about helicopters and a dolphin joke about a South Park episode that's over a decade old now. If this was a discussion about people who identify as cats and dragons I'd be more receptive to this stuff, but I don't feel like (and I know you don't feel like that either) gender identity is akin to identifying as mayonnaise or a helicopter.

Love how a joke from a Twitter account of a fictional video game character can rile people up so much.

It's just a laugh honestly, if you feel the need to write paragraphs of sympathetic bawwwwing because of a little joke I'd hate to see what happens when someone really does discriminate on someone's identity.[/QUOTE]
I wrote a paragraph about something that frustrates me. Exact same as what you did.

Also Tumblr isn't full of 15 year old exclusively so way to try and twist your argument into place by playing the 'muh innocence' card.

I don't have the numbers at hand, I know that a lot of the users are younger compared to comparable sites (reddit I guess?). Either way it just feels like punching down to me. People on tumblr writing about how they feel like dragons or cats don't have institutional power.

 

[Brend]

I'm happy to hear it, and glad to hear you're supportive of the people in your life. I apologize for misreading you.

Fair enough, but nobody believes "mayonnaise" is a gender identity and I don't think it's a reasonable thing to bring up in a discussion about gender identities. I know you personally don't use it in reference to transgendered people but the reason I bring this up is that this vague idea of "tumblr" is suspiciously present in most discussions online of trans people. It's the same with the attack helicopter thing, that didn't originate from tumblr, it originate from a straw man someone made up and has been repeated ad nauseum.

It's just very frustrating to me that even in a site like this which is basically the best I've seen in terms of discussions remaining civil, any mention of trans people anywhere on the site starts a joke train of the same old tired stuff about helicopters and a dolphin joke about a South Park episode that's over a decade old now. If this was a discussion about people who identify as cats and dragons I'd be more receptive to this stuff, but I don't feel like (and I know you don't feel like that either) gender identity is akin to identifying as mayonnaise or a helicopter.

It's just a laugh honestly, if you feel the need to write paragraphs of sympathetic bawwwwing because of a little joke I'd hate to see what happens when someone really does discriminate on someone's identity.

I wrote a paragraph about something that frustrates me. Exact same as what you did.

I don't have the numbers at hand, I know that a lot of the users are younger compared to comparable sites (reddit I guess?). Either way it just feels like punching down to me. People on tumblr writing about how they feel like dragons or cats don't have institutional power.[/QUOTE]
Nothing frustrates me about this topic, live and let live. Also, for reference sake:

It appears the most special of snowflakes are actually fully classifiable as adults.

 

[Daniel]

What exactly does a Ms. feel like? What makes them feel like they are a woman? Why can they not be a man with feminine features? Why does altering your genitalia mean you're closer to the other gender? Or altering your dress? Or altering your mannerisms? Why does any of that result in being associated with the other gender?

Gender and body dysmorphia. Someone who is constantly discontented, disgusted and distress. It's the clashing of one's internal sense of self and how society views them. The current treatment is to minimise the dysphoria as much as possible (i.e. using preferred pronouns, dressing as preferred gender, hormones).

In order to say that you feel like you are a woman you must know what it feels like to be a woman... but there is no such thing.

There was a study about eight years ago claiming that MTF (male-to-female) transgender had similar neurological attributes to biological females, and vice-versa (i.e. FTM and biological male). More recent studies have found similar findings in grey and white matter dimorphism. So maybe transgender people do know what it's like to feel like their preferred gender.

 

[Danoff]

Gender and body dysmorphia. Someone who is constantly discontented, disgusted and distress. It's the clashing of one's internal sense of self and how society views them. The current treatment is to minimise the dysphoria as much as possible (i.e. using preferred pronouns, dressing as preferred gender, hormones).

That' doesn't address my question.

There was a study about eight years ago claiming that MTF (male-to-female) transgender had similar neurological attributes to biological females, and vice-versa (i.e. FTM and biological male). More recent studies have found similar findings in grey and white matter dimorphism. So maybe transgender people do know what it's like to feel like their preferred gender.

Their preferred gender doesn't have a ubiquitous sense of what it's like to be them. Transgender people should know this better than most. You can't know what it's like to be or feel like a woman because women feel differently. Even women don't know what it's like to feel like a woman because nobody is 100% pure "woman". There is no point of reference.

 

[Ialyrn]

@Daniel Thanks for trying to explain. I also posted up about the physical differences in the brains of transgender people on page 1; it got ignored by some.

Also @Dan is a good guy, I am part of the private LGBT discussion that Dan is apart of. They are very knowledgeable on things, and often provides very valid advice in dealing with LGBT things.

That' doesn't address my question.

Their preferred gender doesn't have a ubiquitous sense of what it's like to be them. Transgender people should know this better than most. You can't know what it's like to be feel like a woman because women feel differently. Even women don't know what it's like to feel like a woman.

Actually it does, and quite well. You seem to think that been transgender is a choice, that we just wake up one day and decide we want to live as the opposite gender. Its not that at all. Its about knowing for as long as you can remember that you are wrong, that your body is not what it should be, and there is nothing that you can do about it. You gravitate towards what are seen as girls things (I had two older sisters, and I preferred to play with their toys), but get told they are for girls, and that you are a boy so you cant play with them. You learn to hold it in from a very young age as people don't understand (case and point in this thread), always getting told that it is wrong; that you shouldn't be like that. It eventually becomes overwhelming to either do something about it (as I did), or give in and commit suicide. If we choose the former, we then have to deal with people and their bigoted views. Or people who do not understand, and outright refuse to use the pronouns that are associated with the gender we are; treating and addressing us based solely on our physical sex. Or who are just not able to show any sort of empathy for what we have to go through. To the point that most transgender people live below the poverty line, are refused jobs or fired from ones we already hold. Even refused or evicted from rented accommodation. Not the mention the other issues, such as been attacked in the street, and even murdered. There is even a day of remembrance for transgender people, because so many of us have been killed for being 'freaks', or committed suicide because of how we are and how society treats us. We lose family, I lost my mum for 4 years. When I was finally able to open up and talk about it, she took it badly and beat me black and blue. She has come to terms with it now, and we are talking and seeing each other again. But it took 4 years of me not in her life before she was able to come around, and for her to get the courage to apologize for what she did. But that is the sort of thing we have to go through, and just because of who we are.

So if you think we choose to be like this, no, we don't. I would give anything to not be like I am. I just want to be like everyone else and fit in, not to be treated like a freak on a daily basis. No, I didn't choose to be treated like this, non of us did.

Oh, and I am one of the lucky ones. There are lots of trans people who have it far far worse than me.

 

[Exorcet]

You gravitate towards what are seen as girls things (I had two older sisters, and I preferred to play with their toys), but get told they are for girls, and that you are a boy so you cant play with them.

That is exactly what Danoff is trying to destroy.

I just want to be like everyone else and fit in, not to be treated like a freak on a daily basis. No, I didn't choose to be treated like this, non of us did.

He/she is not a freak label. It just describes biology. The point Danoff is making is that if we get rid of ideas of what it means to be male/female, we solve most of the problems you bring up. Sex shouldn't matter. Playing with toys that are marketed to certain demographic that you're not a part of sounds pretty trivial, even if some people make a huge deal out of it.

 

[Danoff]

Actually it does, and quite well.

How?

You seem to think that been transgender is a choice

What did I say that made you think that?

Its about knowing for as long as you can remember that you are wrong, that your body is not what it should be, and there is nothing that you can do about it.

That's in common with anyone who has ever had cancer, or got old, or lost a limb.

You gravitate towards what are seen as girls things (I had two older sisters, and I preferred to play with their toys), but get told they are for girls, and that you are a boy so you cant play with them. You learn to hold it in from a very young age as people don't understand (case and point in this thread), always getting told that it is wrong; that you shouldn't be like that. It eventually becomes overwhelming to either do something about it (as I did), or give in and commit suicide. If we choose the former, we then have to deal with people and their bigoted views. Or people who do not understand, and outright refuse to use the pronouns that are associated with the gender we are; treating and addressing us based solely on our physical sex. Or who are just not able to show any sort of empathy for what we have to go through. To the point that most transgender people live below the poverty line, are refused jobs or fired from ones we already hold. Even refused or evicted from rented accommodation. Not the mention the other issues, such as been attacked in the street, and even murdered. There is even a day of remembrance for transgender people, because so many of us have been killed for being 'freaks', or committed suicide because of how we are and how society treats us. We lose family, I lost my mum for 4 years. When I was finally able to open up and talk about it, she took it badly and beat me black and blue. She has come to terms with it now, and we are talking and seeing each other again. But it took 4 years of me not in her life before she was able to come around, and for her to get the courage to apologize for what she did. But that is the sort of thing we have to go through, and just because of who we are.

People are persecuted for all kinds of things, it's not really the point though is it? I mean, I don't see how this is relevant to what I'm saying. I get that it's tough, lots of people have to deal with tough issues.

So if you think we choose to be like this, no, we don't.

I know. I didn't choose to be like I am either.

 

[The87Dodge]

I think that there are more than three genders in this world. I grew up with a kid in school who thought he or she wasn't masculine or feminine. I believe even if you are assigned male or female at birth, that may not be who you really are.

 

[Dagger311]

Two, male and female. Anything else really is unnecessary.

However, I really do not give a rat's hairy ass what someone decides they want to be called.

 

[nascarfan1400]

Just leaving my opinion, as discussing leads to arguing.

To me gender is a spectrum, one end being female, the other male. People fall anywhere inbetween that. But thats just me. Trying to keep it short. Yes I believe there are more than 3 genders. If you think otherwise, so be it, it is your opinion, just as valid as mine. I fully support transgenders, genderqueers, genderfluids, ect, and will continue to. I dont really care who you are or what you identify as. You be nice to me and show respect, I will do the same.

 

[LeMansAid]

Gah!! Too many people not getting what @Danoff is talking about.

When a woman asks to be called a man, or a man asks to be called a woman, there's an implied limiting of the breadth of what is normal for each sex. At the point where all behaviours, appearances, etc. are accepted without prejudice, the male/female tag becomes mundane and arbitrary.

That said, I call people whatever they want to be called.

 

[Com Fox]

I should've added in my OP that despite the fact I believe that you can only be Male, Female, Both or None. If you still don't want to be called something, I won't call you that. It's like any situation when people call people things they don't like.

 

[Jawehawk]

There are two genders. This is a biological fact.

As for gender identity, well, I suppose that is very much up for debate. I find the whole notion of gender identity to be absurd, but in the end, it's their choice, and it's not for me to tell them how to live their lives or what they are allowed to do to their body (sex change for example).

 

[niky]

I know all that @niky, well not that part about you putting it together but still. Why on earth would you call any of it a disorder? Seems lame if you ask me.

Irregularly shaped or developed genitalia that cannot perform either male or female functions correctly are a medical concern, and can be corrected to fully male or female, if the patient so desires.

Then there are those that are genetically male or female but whose outward genitalia don't match their genetic identity. This can also be corrected via surgery if necessary.

There is nothing lame about labeling an actual medical condition a medical condition.

-

Then there are those who are physically and genetically male or female but who do not believe themselves to be... which is more of what this thread is about. About which I have no opinion. I believe people are free to choose their own gender identity, but I sort of understand what Danoff is saying... at what point do you consider atypical gender behaviour a marker of gender identity?

Do note that many transvestites are totally straight. And male lesbian isn't really a useful gender identity in any meaningful way.

In the end, the answer is the unisex bathroom. Which feels weird the first time you pee at a urinal with giggling girls walking behind you, but which feels perfectly normal the fifth or sixth time you have to go.