Transgender Thread.

[Daniel]

@Danoff while it'll be great to have an ideal world where nobody cares about whatever gender they are, there is still a visible sexual dichotomy. As long as one exists, people are gonna feel like they're on one side or the other, or somewhere in between.


For answering the original question it depends on what culture you look at. Western culture typically sees a male/female binary (although there seems to be increasing recognition of third genders or those who identify outside of the binary). Someone using sex and gender interchangeably are also likely to say two.

Other cultures have a distinct third gender, so if you ask them they might answer three (an example of such would be fa'afafine in Samoa, hijra in the Indian sub-continent and Two-Spirit people in America. I'm pretty sure there's one society that (in their definition of gender) that has five. Born male, born female, trans male, trans female and one that's all-encompassing.

 

[Winters Noble]

In the end, the answer is the unisex bathroom. Which feels weird the first time you pee at a urinal with giggling girls walking behind you, but which feels perfectly normal the fifth or sixth time you have to go.

I agree, but this is a hot topic in the U.S' South as of now. To some conservative lawmakers one's gender equals one's by biological sex. Sure, this notion is fairly commonplace, but here the reaction is quite visceral. Transgendered and Transsexual individuals are automatically deemed perverts for using restrooms of "their" gender, hence the strong push for bills prohibiting such.

 

[Daniel]

I agree but this is a hot topic in the U.S' South as of now. To some conservative lawmakers one's gender equals one's by biological sex. Sure, this notion is fairly commonplace, but here the reaction is quite visceral. Transgendered and Transsexual individuals are automatically deemed perverts for using restrooms of "their" gender, hence the strong push for bills prohibiting such.

Because a 16 year old straight teen is going to change his name, request everyone to use 'her/she', change his entire look and wardrobe, go to school presenting himself as a girl, and deal with potential bullying from friends, family, classmates, coworkers and employers... just to look at boobs.

These lawmakeres have no logic at all.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Because a 16 year old straight teen is going to change his name, request everyone to use 'her/she', change his entire look and wardrobe, go to school presenting himself as a girl, and deal with potential bullying from friends, family, classmates, coworkers and employers... just to look at boobs.

These lawmakeres have no logic at all.

Pedophiles are known to go to extreme lengths to spend time alone with little boys and girls. Given that there aren't going to be testing stations outside every bathroom in the state to determine the validity of your gender convictions, surely there should be a reasonable level of concern that it might open the door to abuse by some sick and some not so sick individuals.

 

[Danoff]

In the end, the answer is the unisex bathroom. Which feels weird the first time you pee at a urinal with giggling girls walking behind you, but which feels perfectly normal the fifth or sixth time you have to go.

I attended Kylie Minogue concert in Hollywood. I believe west Hollywood (a predominately gay community - even the cop cars have a rainbow) was a ghost town while she was singing because the entire population was in the auditorium. At one point I left to go to the bathroom. There was a line a mile long for the men's room while the women's room was empty. I should have taken a photo because it was hilarious.

When I finally got to the front of the line I was surprised with how freely sexual the discussion was in the men's room. It's a strange thing to hear men banter sexually with each other through bathroom stalls.

While men are less likely to be put off by this, I think women are usually the focus when it comes to bathroom exclusivity. I think private bathrooms are helpful to enable people who feel they might otherwise disturb the public by being in an unexpected restroom make a choice that won't result in concern. It's also a great tool to help people who are uncomfortable with public restrooms feel a bit more safe.

 

[Ialyrn]

Pedophiles are known to go to extreme lengths to spend time alone with little boys and girls. Given that there aren't going to be testing stations outside every bathroom in the state to determine the validity of your gender convictions, surely there should be a reasonable level of concern that it might open the door to abuse by some sick and some not so sick individuals.

What about us trans individuals though? Where do trans women like myself go to the toilet, if we are not allowed legally into the women's toilet? Do you honestly think it is safe for us to enter the men's toilet, just because we are biologically male? Or a trans man. Do you really expect a biological woman who looks like a man, sounds like a man, and is in every other way but biologically a man; into the women's toilet?

What about our safety? what about our rights? Are we not entitled to the same human decency, dignity, rights, privileges and protections as every other human being? Or are we to always continue to be treated worse than criminals, sexual predators, and the like for ever? Because that is how we get treated, not by everyone, but by the majority. We are used as the punchlines in jokes, even today. We are denied jobs, housing, even help from the government in some places.

We always get put into the same box as pedophiles and other sexual predators, and they are always used as the reason to deny us our basic human rights!

 

[Johnnypenso]

What about us trans individuals though? Where do trans women like myself go to the toilet, if we are not allowed legally into the women's toilet? Do you honestly think it is safe for us to enter the men's toilet, just because we are biologically male? Or a trans man. Do you really expect a biological woman who looks like a man, sounds like a man, and is in every other way but biologically a man; into the women's toilet?

What about our safety? what about our rights? Are we not entitled to the same human decency, dignity, rights, privileges and protections as every other human being? Or are we to always continue to be treated worse than criminals, sexual predators, and the like for ever? Because that is how we get treated, not by everyone, but by the majority. We are used as the punchlines in jokes, even today. We are denied jobs, housing, even help from the government in some places.

We always get put into the same box as pedophiles and other sexual predators, and they are always used as the reason to deny us our basic human rights!

I'm not putting you in a box with pedophiles and sexual predators nor am I denying you any rights. I'm simply saying that it's reasonable for people to be concerned that pedophiles and other predators will take advantage of this situation. It is an inevitable consequence of this sort of legislation IMO.

My question to you would be, if you could waive a magic wand and money was not a consideration, what would the ultimate solution be or at least a more reasonable one?

 

[Ialyrn]

I'm not putting you in a box with pedophiles and sexual predators nor am I denying you any rights. I'm simply saying that it's reasonable for people to be concerned that pedophiles and other predators will take advantage of this situation. It is an inevitable consequence of this sort of legislation IMO.

I know you are not saying that personally Johnny, I have had enough conversations in private with you to know that. But regardless, that sort of reasoning does place transgender people like myself in that box; whether intentional or not. And it has been used on more than one occasion as the reason behind physical assaults on transgender people. So although you do not think that way personally, using pedophiles and sexual predators as the reason to lock transgender people out of a restroom that fits their gender but not their physical sex on that basis is harmful and very damaging.

The lawmakers are using pedophiles and sexual predators as the reason, because they would get too much bad press and public backlash if they outright said they was using transgender people as the reason for the new legislation's.

What I put in my last post is all correct, and it all denies transgender individuals like myself our basic human rights and dignity.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm not putting you in a box with pedophiles and sexual predators nor am I denying you any rights. I'm simply saying that it's reasonable for people to be concerned that pedophiles and other predators will take advantage of this situation. It is an inevitable consequence of this sort of legislation IMO.

Absolutely. People who are interested in sexualising children will always attempt to find a way.

That's not a good reason to shut every idea down though... otherwise we'd have no schools, no swimming pools, no amusement arcades, no funfairs, no parks... they're all places where child predators have historically gravitated to, both male and female and both heterosexual and gay.

The idea that trans women using toilets somehow elevate the risk to children is comparatively ludicrous.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I know you are not saying that personally Johnny, I have had enough conversations in private with you to know that. But regardless, that sort of reasoning does place transgender people like myself in that box; whether intentional or not. And it has been used on more than one occasion as the reason behind physical assaults on transgender people. So although you do not think that way personally, using pedophiles and sexual predators as the reason to lock transgender people out of a restroom that fits their gender but not their physical sex on that basis is harmful and very damaging.

The lawmakers are using pedophiles and sexual predators as the reason, because they would get too much bad press and public backlash if they outright said they was using transgender people as the reason for the new legislation's.

What I put in my last post is all correct, and it all denies transgender individuals like myself our basic human rights and dignity.

I realize that lawmakers are using this and other concerns as excuses for not moving forward, but at the same time I also think that there are legitimate concerns. What about this though?

My question to you would be, if you could waive a magic wand and money was not a consideration, what would the ultimate solution be or at least a more reasonable one?

Absolutely. People who are interested in sexualising children will always attempt to find a way.

That's not a good reason to shut every idea down though... otherwise we'd have no schools, no swimming pools, no amusement arcades, no funfairs, no parks... they're all places where child predators have historically gravitated to, both male and female and both heterosexual and gay.

It's also not a good reason to simply proceed with every idea without full consideration given to potential consequences.

The idea that trans women using toilets somehow elevate the risk to children is comparatively ludicrous.

Of course. Who said that? I'd like to quote them and let them know my opinion as well.

 

[Famine]

Do you really expect a biological woman who looks like a man, sounds like a man, and is in every other way but biologically a man; into the women's toilet?

Do you really expect biological women who look like women, sound like women and in every other way a woman to be happy about what they see and hear as a man in the women's toilet? What about their safety? What about their rights?

When you go into a public toilet no-one knows what you keep in your underwear but you, and unless you habitually go to the toilet by stripping naked and taking a running jump at the cubicle, no-one will know. But if you look like a dude and go into the ladies, there will be screams and shouts of 'pervert' long before you can explain your gender status (if they even believe you).


Remarkably, every comment about genders in this thread refer to an amount of male-ness or an amount of female-ness - sometimes both. The fact that no-one refers to any kind of gender that is anything other than male spectrum or female spectrum and no-one can come up with any further gender states that aren't expressed in these terms is quite telling that there are just the two genders and everyone's can be plotted by a combined amount of maleness and femaleness.

Sometimes your physiology's place on the scale doesn't match your genetic's place, or your neurochemistry's place, but each can be expressed by a combined amount of maleness and femaleness.

 

[MisterWaffles]

In the poll you forgot Attack Helicopter. Check your triggers...



Old internet meme sorry.

 

[Danoff]

The part that bothers me is when we start insisting on calling that guy a woman. Why?

It's been quiet in this thread for 5 minutes so I'm going to throw some gasoline on the fire and answer my own question.

Control.

I hypothesize that the transgender community wants to force the rest of the world to call them the other gender because they like he ability to correct people, to control their language, to force acceptance, even at a superficial level. If you can get that random person to call you by your chosen gender you have controlled their outward acceptance of you. It's a way of legitimizing your life choices by forcing others to accommodate them.

...and that's unhealthy.

If you allow your own personal legitimacy to be determined by others you'll never be satisfied with yourself. If you need the approval of society, even superficially, to feel better about yourself, you're lacking some level of self-esteem. If you really accept yourself for who you are, society's acceptance of you should make no difference. No one is ever going to understand what it's like to be you, regardless of whether you're transgender or whatever you think "normal' is, your experiences are unique.

I wish the transgender community would stop trying to twist into social norms that don't fit. Maybe you weren't born a woman, and you don't feel the way you think a man should feel, that just means the way you (and perhaps every else) think a man should feel is wrong. You're not going to change who you are, so you need to challenge the artificial notions of whatever you think it means to be what you are. Ultimately no amount of language or social control will ever help.

 

[Dan]

I hypothesize that the transgender community wants to force the rest of the world to call them the other gender because they like he ability to correct people, to control their language, to force acceptance, even at a superficial level. If you can get that random person to call you by your chosen gender you have controlled their outward acceptance of you. It's a way of legitimizing your life choices by forcing others to accommodate them.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought trans people just want to be treated equally, not mocked by ignorant people.

 

[Danoff]

Maybe it's just me, but I thought trans people just want to be treated equally, not mocked by ignorant people.

I don't even see how that's related.

 

[Dan]

I don't even see how that's related.

Trans people want to be called the gender they identify with, not the one they were born as. Ignorant people refuse to acknowledge and accept the wishes of the trans community.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Trans people want to be called the gender they identify with, not the one they were born as. Ignorant people refuse to acknowledge and accept the wishes of the trans community.

I can't speak for Danoff but I think what he is trying to say is that if you seek validation through the approval of others you're always going to be disappointed.

 

[Com Fox]

Honestly @Danoff, @Famine you guys do bring an interesting point.

If I suddenly decided that identified myself as woman but I still dressed exclusively in men clothing, still have facial hair, don't wear a bra. Would I be considered socially as a woman? I feel like a Woman but I don't have any of the Socially Woman features or stereotypes? I think I questioned this before on the LGBT Thread, how we are trying to move away from Gender stereotypes and try to treat genders equally, though some Trans seem to enforce these stereotypes just to be called a Women. @Ialyrn I think you are taking this as a personal attack, I don't see anything about him personally attacking transgender people as he seems to be more in the lines of questioning it.

As for the rest room and pedophiles and perverts. Honestly we already have those in rest rooms today thanks to Bisexual and Homosexual Pedos and Pervs. If anything I think we need bathrooms divided by age not gender.

 

[Danoff]

Trans people want to be called the gender they identify with, not the one they were born as. Ignorant people refuse to acknowledge and accept the wishes of the trans community.

The wishes of that trans community cannot also be ignorant? Interesting assumption.

The notion that you "identify with a gender" is fairly ignorant. It assumes that there is such a thing as a gender identity, which there is not. There is only a social stereotype for genders - something you'd expect transgender people to fight against. If I like tools and fixing cars which gender am I identifying with? If I want to wear a dress which gender am I identifying with? If I'm really into the movie "The Notebook" which gender am I identifying with? If I like flowers which gender am I identifying with? I can name people that identify with these in the following order: female, male, male, male.

Fundamentally, if someone claims they identify with one gender and not the other they are probably wrong.

 

[Dan]

The wishes of that trans community cannot also be ignorant? Interesting assumption.

Telling cisgender people to "check their privelege" is ignorant, but asking them for a small amount of respect is not.

 

[squadops]

Irregularly shaped or developed genitalia that cannot perform either male or female functions correctly are a medical concern, and can be corrected to fully male or female, if the patient so desires.

Then there are those that are genetically male or female but whose outward genitalia don't match their genetic identity. This can also be corrected via surgery if necessary.

There is nothing lame about labeling an actual medical condition a medical condition.

That is all well and good, I hope you didn't type all that for me as I already told you I knew all about it. Unless we have very different ideas of what the word 'disorder' means I'll stick with my statement. An actual medical condition is an actual medical condition but I would not call it(in this case) a disorder, rather an anomaly perhaps.

Then there are those who are physically and genetically male or female but who do not believe themselves to be... Which is more of what this thread is about. About which I have no opinion.

Neither do I but I would not call that a disorder either, I didn't mean it as as war of semantics I meant it out of respect for all people being born however they are. I believe there is a place for the word in medicine but I think sexuality is whatever it is.

 

[Famine]

cisgender

A word that didn't need to be invented, born out of a desire amongst individuals who lambast their own categorisation to categorise people not like them.

 

[Dan]

A word that didn't need to be invented, born out of a desire amongst individuals who lambast their own categorisation to categorise people not like them.

I didn't create it. I thought that was a generally accepted term for people who identify with the gender they are born as.

 

[Famine]

I didn't create it.

I know...

I thought that was a generally accepted term for people who identify with the gender they are born as.

It's certainly a term for it...

It was created as an opposite to 'transgender', to create a label for people so that the label 'transgender' has less of a stigmatism. Unnecessarily, as that assumes that there is a stigmatism to the term 'transgender'.

 

[Com Fox]

I don't think I ever heard any "Cisgender" person say that, hell even I don't. I'm just a guy who is comfortable being a guy.

I doubt a "Cisgender" person even made the word, it was probably made up by some tumblr user to poke at people who a comfortable being their gender. Tumblr does influence a lot of things in stupid ways

 

[Winters Noble]

I say be what you want to be. But it is funny that the most vocal of trans advocates seek to eliminate set gender status yet create all these labels. The name of my gender status should not be longer than the honorary title of a Hindu god. (I am a Cisgendered Heterosexual male, and what else..).

 

[A2K78]

This whole acceptance of multiple as being normal combine with the gender-fluid fad really demonstrate that society is not only going backwards, but also rejecting conventional scientific proof in the process.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

I say, enough with the transphobia. If you don't like your body, it's your right to change it. It's also your right to identify as another sex. It disgusts me that others would impose upon such a basic right.

 

[Com Fox]

I say, enough with the transphobia. If you don't like your body, it's your right to change it. It's also your right to identify as another sex. It disgusts me that others would impose upon such a basic right.

I really don't see anybody acting transphobic, I look at the replies and most of them seem to be questioning it (note ?s from @Danoff). Questioning something doesn't mean you're against it, it means you either want to be informed more or challenge those who support it.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

I really don't see anybody acting transphobic, I look at the replies and most of them seem to be questioning it (note ?s from @Danoff). Questioning something doesn't mean you're against it, it means you either want to be informed more or challenge those who support it.

That's just my perspective on the gender debate as a whole. I wasn't replying to anyone in specific.