The "Good" Chrysler Thread: Making Vanilla, Vanilla

[Keef]

The Chevy Volt is a hybrid, not an EV. It's based on a $15,000 Daewoo and gets poor gas mileage for a hybrid. It costs more than a 3-series BMW. THINK-ABOUT-THAT.

The Volt's range-extending engine cannot power the wheels directly. There is no mechanical linkage between the engine and wheels, beat it through your thick ass skull. You are wrong. When the batteries are depleted, the engine can kick on to generate power which gets sent to the traction motor and generator simultaneously, the former to drive the car and the latter to recharge the battery, but it only sends power to the traction motor at 70 mph or above; below that, it charges the battery and the traction motor gets its power from there. This car is powered by electricity. The article I've shown you includes a link to GM's statement clarifying how the car works in an attempt to straighten out all the speculative idiots who are simply biased against GM and any of their attempts at industry-leading innovation.

For BMW 3-Series money, you'd be an idiot to buy a Volt. And by idiot, I mean some Hollywood weirdo, a techy, hipster w/a trust fund, or a tenured professor of art history.

All of those "idiots" make more money than you. So what's your point?

What EV has a chance to get to 'fashionable' status; the Nissan Leaf. That car has a chance to sell b/c it looks like nothing else, doesn't have the rep of a bailed out US car company, and is a true EV. The Chevy? No way. After you get past the flashing light tech, fancy buttons, and whatever add-ons; it's a hybrid Chevy Cruise that will drive like a Chevy Cruise...which is to say drive like a Korean econo-box.

The Volt is doomed.

Fully electric vehicles, at this point in battery technology, are still terribly impractical. While electricity as fuel is inexpensive, a typical driver putting over 50 miles on their car every weekday would want to recharge it every night, it takes vastly longer than the five minutes of a gas fill-up with the fastest systems, and you've got no safety net in case an emergency road trip pops up, or you're already halfway there so you decide to drive the other 250 miles to someplace you've never been before. You can't do that in an electric vehicle; you've got no driving freedom. You can in a gas vehicle because of the network of gas stations. You can in the Volt also, because as long as it's range-extender has fuel, which can be found at the gas stations, you can drive it as far and as often as any other car, but get 127 miles per gallon while doing it.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

The Volt's range-extending engine cannot power the wheels directly. There is no mechanical linkage between the engine and wheels, beat it through your thick ass skull. You are wrong.

Great, you can read a press release regurgitated via some journo hack. Here's Motor Trend's take on the mechanics of the not-all-electric Volt:

“It’s not a hybrid! It’s an electric car with a range-extending, gas-powered generator onboard.” That was the party line during most of the masterfully orchestrated press rollout of what we’ve been promised will be the most thoroughly new car since, what, the Chrysler Turbine? The Lunar Rover? Well, the cat is now out of the bag, and guess what? It is a hybrid, after all. Yes, Virginia, the Chevy Volt’s gas engine does turn the wheels.

from here: http://www.motortrend.com/features/...the_chevy_volt_to_see_how_it_ticks/index.html

Awesome huh? Keep repeating the lie over and over and eventually people like yourself believe it.

When the batteries are depleted, the engine can kick on to generate power which gets sent to the traction motor and generator simultaneously, the former to drive the car and the latter to recharge the battery, but it only sends power to the traction motor at 70 mph or above; below that, it charges the battery and the traction motor gets its power from there. This car is powered by electricity. The article I've shown you includes a link to GM's statement clarifying how the car works in an attempt to straighten out all the speculative idiots who are simply biased against GM and any of their attempts at industry-leading innovation.

So when the battery is drained, a gas engine starts right? And based on newly released reports; the batteries didn't last 40 miles (most hit low 30's) nor did the gas engine get 40mpg when in 'charge sustaining mode'. And these tests usually occurred in Michigan this fall; not particularly hilly, hot, or cold now is it?

GM has been full of crap the whole time with this debauchery. Billions upon billions of dollars pissed away on a plug-in hybrid system to be stuffed into a Daewoo. This is the Halo Car that is to save Detroit?

When Toyota releases their new emperor of beige, the plug-in Prius, the Volt will die.

All of those "idiots" make more money than you. So what's your point?

Steve Rattner, the former 'car czar', is a felon. He's a crook, well, according the judge & jury anyway. These are the types that have run GM and is the #1 problem why that company is crap.

They're not a car company and haven't been one for a very long time. GM was, is, and will continue to be a financing company that make cars so they can get interest payments. Look up the 10K from the past decade or so and run the numbers - it's frightening. GMAC made beaucoup bucks in the mortgage industry...didn't work out too good now did it?

The Volt represents the pinnacle of group-think and corporate incompetence; releasing a half-assed product whatever the costs, hyping it up, and killing the bottom line.

Fully electric vehicles, at this point in battery technology, are still terribly impractical. While electricity as fuel is inexpensive, a typical driver putting over 50 miles on their car every weekday would want to recharge it every night, it takes vastly longer than the five minutes of a gas fill-up with the fastest systems, and you've got no safety net in case an emergency road trip pops up, or you're already halfway there so you decide to drive the other 250 miles to someplace you've never been before. You can't do that in an electric vehicle; you've got no driving freedom. You can in a gas vehicle because of the network of gas stations.

So then what is the point of marketing such a vehicle as an EV?

Sorry, but I just cannot get my head around this enviro-hairshirt green at all costs Daewoo.

Electricity is a PITA b/c it takes a 1/2 a day to charge, if you remember to charge it, and the Volt gas engine has poor economy. Why didn't they use a diesel? Why didn't they build a true flagship instead of throwing together something before the IPO?

Why are they building low volume niche vehicles when their average sedan does not compete with other marks? Why are they charging $41,000 for this...thing?

Billions of dollars pissed away on another political experiment.

If I had a few bucks laying around, no way would I invest in GM or any of this EV tech. What would I invest in?

This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crower_six_stroke

That, my friend, is f'n brilliant and that's the kind of ingenuity that deserves a chance. That engine has a future, not the experimental and relatively untested hybrid system in the Volt.

A normal piston engine is around 20% efficient, most of the available energy is converted to heat. The Crower 6-stroke uses that heat in a very simple, yet clever, way.

Any millionaires here? Investment top tip: invest there and not in solar panels or Asian sourced batteries.

You can in the Volt also, because as long as it's range-extender has fuel, which can be found at the gas stations, you can drive it as far and as often as any other car, but get 127 miles per gallon while doing it.

No, you can't get 127mpg...at least Car and Driver and Popular Mechanics didn't.

From The Truth About Cars:

And this reality is already leading to confusion. Over at Motor Trend, former TTAC writer Jonny Liebermann claims to have wrung 127 MPG out of his Volt tester, gushing

Broken down, over the course of 299 miles on Los Angeles highways, byways and freeways, the Volt burned 2.36 gallons of gasoline (fine, 2.359 gallons — we rounded up). Most other cars use up a tank of gas going 299 miles. The Volt, to reiterate, used 2.36 gallons over 299 miles. That’s freaking amazing!

Unfortunately, Lieberman prevents us from concurring with his breathless assessment by failing to include an accurate log of the trips he took to achieve that number. Working backwards through his less-than-scientifically-presented data, we reckon Lieberman got about 52.6 MPG in CS mode, with at least one battery recharge somewhere in the middle. That’s better than the consensus forming around the Volt’s CS-Mode efficiency (somewhere around 35 MPG according to Popular Mechanics and Car & Driver), but it’s still nowhere close to supporting 127 MPG as a consistently-achievable CS Mode rating (it’s also a number that GM would likely not stand by if pressed).Unsurprisingly, this hasn’t prevented GM’s social media and PR team from sending copious numbers of detractors to Lieberman’s piece by way of “educating” them.

Of course, Lieberman’s analysis is not without value: it shows that the Volt can achieve 127 MPG in “normal” driving. But with an extra charge-up somewhere in his poorly-defined test, he could easily have achieved twice that number (think the infamous “230 MPG“). Without an actual trip log showing how much gas and electricity were used on each leg of his test, however, Lieberman’s 127 MPG number means nothing. By using it as proof that the Volt is indeed a “game changer” GM’s PR team is simply proving the extent to which they’re willing to exploit confusion (even among the august ranks of buff book contributors) in order to hype their car.

Better engineering through marketing? A bit sleazy isn't it?

 

[SuperShouden]

Actually, there have been very practical electric cars already. The Pontiac EV-1, the Ford Ranger EV and the Toyota Rav-4 EV were all released around 2000, and got descent ranges and you could plug them into a home outfit. There are even still charge stations in California. However, there is a big problem with EVs...they aren't cost effective to the car makers, as the makers get most of their money from maintenance and parts...and there aren't many parts on an EV, and there were several other factors, but essentially, the several forces didn't like the EV and all of them were eventually rounded up and the entire lot were destroyed. Even the ones that people had already purchased. I think there is only 1 EV-1 still around and it's a museum piece. Ironically, GM's idea to draw attention away from the EV-1 was to buy Hummer and release the H2.

So, a lot of the companies that are releasing EVs now, have been done this before. But, one thing is for certain: Gasoline powered cars will be here until we run out of oil.

 

[niky]

The maintenance thing is a red herring. If profit from maintenance service were the major driver against EVs, that would mean that Ford and GM would still be outselling Toyota globally... and they aren't. Cars that are durable and cost less to maintain and require less maintenance are desirable for consumers. Which means that manufacturers who make these cars get more in sales than those who don't.

The Prius already requires much less maintenance than a regular car... and Toyota's still cranking them out as fast as they can sell them.

While the fact that manufacturers don't make profit off the drivetrain unless they're the ones making the drivetrain is an issue... an even bigger issue is that much of the purchase price for an EV is the battery.... which manufacturers have no control over. Which is why Nissan has internalized electric and battery technology in making the Leaf... which is why the Leaf is so cheap (compared to every other electric on the market).

-

EVs didn't sell before because they weren't cost-effective. Not on the manufacturer's end. Not on the consumer's end. The EV1s flopped because even after taking a $50,000+++ hit on each car, GM couldn't sell them at $40,000 (adjust upward for inflation) to the general public. Nobody is going to try to sell a car at a loss that big. Toyota accepted a loss on each Prius of around $10,000-$20,000 for the first batch, but at least the Prius didn't cost more than the public was willing to pay.

They're still not cost-effective on the consumer end... but with new electronics (which make for faster charging and better energy management), government sponsorships and tax rebates, manufacturers are gambling on them now more than ever before. They might achieve some market penetration over the next few years, but they're never going to completely replace the liquid fueled fleet. Not until the last drop of petrochemical fuel has been wrung out of the ground. And by that time, we'll have much bigger problems than trying to ensure mobility for secretaries commuting from the burbs to the city.

 

[Philly]

Isn't this a Chrysler thread? But on this topic, it will be interesting to see how well the Volt does. My Uncles (fairly well off, condo in Santa Monica) is looking to replace his Prius so he can continue to drive in the carpool lanes. Cost is the issue that keeps the Volt out of the picture, so the Leaf it is. Granted, they still have another car that they can take for extended trips, but it seems like the price tag will hurt the Volt a fair amount.

However, I think that a volume seller and money maker are not the purpose of the Volt. If I had to guess, the Volt is more of an experimental thing (they intend to only sell 60k of them globally per year or something). It'll definitely help GM get on the cutting edge of the series hybrid technology, whether or not the car is a commercial success. I think GM can consider the car a success if it gets word about the technology out to the world and it works, not if the whole world buys them up. The true test will be if GM can package the technology into other cars in the future for a less prohibitive cost. And I definitely hope it works. GM needs some sort of cool tech to make them stand out.

 

[GTjazzabrandy]

Billions upon billions of dollars pissed away on a plug-in hybrid system to be stuffed into a Daewoo.

Lets make this clear. THIS CAR SHARES NOTHING WITH THE DAEWOO MATIZ

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Lets make this clear. THIS CAR SHARES NOTHING WITH THE DAEWOO MATIZ

So I got my Daewoo's mixed up...

Pictured: A Daewoo, that looks exactly like a Chevy Cruze, which looks like a Chevy Volt. Awesome huh?

Even more awesomeness from gm-volt.com;

So it turns out the engine can contribute motive force to the Volt even at speeds from 30 to 70 mph presumably when the power demand calls for it such as hills and strong acceleration. Perhaps even more than that, Peterson wouldn’t say.

Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah explained this a bit more in an interview.

“The 70 mile an hour thing, we’re really not sure where that came from,” he said. “Somebody didn’t get the story right.”

A $41,000 hybrid based on a Korean econo-box. Imagine you're a car buyer and you walk the lot and see a Volt & Cruze parked side-by-side. They look similar, are similarly sized, but the electric one is over $20,000 more expensive. That's going to be sticker shock on a whole new level.

 

[niky]

Wandering dangerously far off-topic in here.

The Cruze is the very first GMDAT product not based on a pre-existing Daewoo platform. While Daewoo had a hand in its design, the underpinnings are all completely new and engineered by Opel, and are what's underneath the new Astra, as well.

So no... it's not a Daewoo. At least the platform isn't. And the drivetrain certainly isn't, either.

 

[Joey D]

And these tests usually occurred in Michigan this fall; not particularly hilly, hot, or cold now is it?

While they are testing these batteries in Michigan, it has not just been the past month. I've seen Volt and Volt test mules for over a year now on the road. Plus GM does their cold weather testing up in Canada, which I'm guessing the Volt went through.

 

[homeforsummer]

When Toyota releases their new emperor of beige, the plug-in Prius, the Volt will die.

You mean the one that does a whole twelve miles on pure EV rather than just four? Let me just catch my breath!

Yeah, that'll certainly challenge the Volt.

Just to add too, plenty of hacks got more than 40 miles in pure EV on the launch test. Including the website I work for. One even managed 50 miles in pure EV. Not out of the question that they were driving for economy, but nor is it out of the question that the other mags were hammering it.

And lets face it - many Volt users are likely to be more concerned than the average Joe about economy, aren't they...

Billions upon billions of dollars pissed away on a plug-in hybrid system to be stuffed into a Daewoo.

You can repeat this as many times as you like, it won't make you any less wrong.

Electricity is a PITA b/c it takes a 1/2 a day to charge,

No it doesn't.

Seeing as the Volt has vastly fewer batteries than the average full EV, it takes much shorter to charge too. Not to mention that very few people will ever charge it from completely empty to completely full. Most won't need to, and with lithium-ion batteries longevity is increased by partial charges anyway, just like with laptops.

if you remember to charge it

You've mentioned this a few times. It's no less stupid now than it was the first time. Do you ever forget to refuel your car? No? Thought not. Why should it be any different with EVs? Park it up next to a charger, plug it in, forget about it. Return after work, or after a night's sleep, unplug it, go again. Not exactly rocket science.

From The Truth About Cars:

Lest we forget, your wonderful source are also the people who gave us the article about the manual gearbox being dangerous. Not just old or outdated, but physically dangerous.

You can forgive me if I'm loathe to believe a single word they write.

 

[YSSMAN]

Let's put this thread back on track...

We know that GM has the Volt and a fairly substantial Two-Mode hybrid system that is going to be adapted to more of their new vehicles soon enough. Ford has a very robust Hybrid program, building arguably the best Hybrid vehicles you can buy in the country right now.

Have we even heard anything about what Chrysler wants to do to combat these? They had their EV program, I've heard nothing of it since the Fiat takeover. They had the Hybrid Ram, but I've heard nothing of that since the brand broke off from Dodge. What the hell is going on over at Chrysler?

 

[Keef]

Oh yeah, this thread is about Chrysler.

Why?

Let me lay out a product plan that would work for Chrysler:

1. Ram
2. Caravan
3. Viper (gotta have something to get people interested)
4. 200 convertible to keep Hertz and Avis stocked

Jeep should then become its own company so it'll stop getting sucked down by the rest of them.

That's about it really. Now move along, there's nothing to see here.

 

[Philly]

Have we even heard anything about what Chrysler wants to do to combat these? They had their EV program, I've heard nothing of it since the Fiat takeover. They had the Hybrid Ram, but I've heard nothing of that since the brand broke off from Dodge. What the hell is going on over at Chrysler?

I thought that Chrysler killed off the ENVI program as they went toward bankruptcy? It is a shame because that was pretty promising. They probably stood a chance of being right up there with GM with the development of these series hybrids.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

You mean the one that does a whole twelve miles on pure EV rather than just four? Let me just catch my breath!

Yeah, that'll certainly challenge the Volt.

"Prius" is now a brand...like a Gucci handbag. Chevy? No way.

Just to add too, plenty of hacks got more than 40 miles in pure EV on the launch test. Including the website I work for. One even managed 50 miles in pure EV. Not out of the question that they were driving for economy, but nor is it out of the question that the other mags were hammering it.

How the hell does one 'drive for economy' during their rush hour commute? Turn off the radio? Lights? Get out of the car and push? Raise a sail?

Stop-n-go traffic in a sea of over-caffeinated and sleep-deprived commuters is not a playground for eco-runs. Throw in a dash of road works and a 15 mile trip can take over an hour.

The testing you mentioned was a challenge put out by GM. In real world conditions, the Volt will not live up to it's promises or price tag. No way.

And lets face it - many Volt users are likely to be more concerned than the average Joe about economy, aren't they...

Which is why the smart ones will probably buy a VW diesel. Volt users will be the same type of person who would sit in front of an Apple store for hours/days to be the 1st to buy an Ipad. As soon as something new comes along, they buy that instead.

You can repeat this as many times as you like, it won't make you any less wrong.

You can read the press releases, recite transcripts from the suits at GM, and look over GM's website as many times as you like. It's a 🤬 Daewoo.

Sure, the Delta II architecture was Opel...from there, Daewoo designed track, length, and all the body panels & important bits to create their own car based on the Delta II design. It's Daewoo's car and GM, once again, has badge engineered a car. Look at the Lacetti, which has been on sale for a few years now, and look at the 2011 Cruze. Same damn thing. The Volt is a Cruze with some styling changes, a few batteries, and a complex hybrid system.

GM has a pretty good track record with complex engines; Northstar was a smash hit!

Seeing as the Volt has vastly fewer batteries than the average full EV, it takes much shorter to charge too. Not to mention that very few people will ever charge it from completely empty to completely full. Most won't need to, and with lithium-ion batteries longevity is increased by partial charges anyway, just like with laptops.

11-ish hours on 120v. The gas engine does not re-charge the battery, it just 'maintains' it. So, for 11 hours you're stuck or you travel the streets with the guilt of using fuel. Awesome huh?

And if you rent, have a condo, or an HOA that's really anal; good luck trying to get 220v.

You've mentioned this a few times. It's no less stupid now than it was the first time. Do you ever forget to refuel your car? No? Thought not. Why should it be any different with EVs? Park it up next to a charger, plug it in, forget about it. Return after work, or after a night's sleep, unplug it, go again. Not exactly rocket science.

Behavior modifications do not go over well. The penalty for not charging up your Daewoo is using fuel...so it's not really life or death. People like, and will pay for, convenience. In this case, they'll pay for fuel instead of plugging in the car. Now I know I can't prove myself right nor can you prove me wrong - so we'll just have to wait and see now won't we?

Lest we forget, your wonderful source are also the people who gave us the article about the manual gearbox being dangerous. Not just old or outdated, but physically dangerous.

You can forgive me if I'm loathe to believe a single word they write.

Niedermayer tells it like it is. You just don't like what he has to say, which is fine, but I have never found anything he's written to be wrong. He cuts through a lot of BS put out by the OEMs and regurgitated by the blogs. I don't know him, never met him, and don't know anything about him except his writings. He's fair and doesn't kiss ass...which is why he's been called out by the White House.

You write for an EV site, so it's probably fair to say that you have some emotional & financial reasons to see EVs take off. It's something you believe in, which is fine, and it's something that pays your bills...some at least.

My big beef with this colossal $41,000 Korean piece of **** is that it could have been so much better. But the suits and the accountants got involved and are repeating the same mistakes GM has made for the past decade. If you don't think selling a $41,000 car along side a $15,000 car that looks damn near identical from across the lot is a problem...well...neither does GM. Customers, on the other hand, will see that as a problem. See the Cadillac Cimarron.

Why is the car badge engineered? Something billed/hyped as being so revolutionary should be bespoke and a starting point for something new right? Answer: they fired a lot of really great engineers. So did Chrysler...and so did Ford (to a lesser degree).

Would this car sell w/o gov't subsidies? Is it even a good car? Will this car save Detroit and bring GM out of the financial doldrums?

The answer to those questions, unfortunately, is no. Even GM says it will not make money in the short term despite the $7,500 subsidy going right to GMAC/Ally/whatevertheyarecalledthisweek padding the bottom line whenever someone leases.

Instead of focusing on the things GM does really well while bringing the rest of their lineup up to the top of their classes; they're importing Korean cars/designs and selling them as American cars. The Aveo, Cruze, and soon to be Spark are all Daewoos...expensive Daewoos in the case of the Cruze.

I find that disgusting.

Equally disgusting is GM calling this an EV. According to the Society of American Engineers and the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (both of which I belong to), it's a 🤬 hybrid.

A Daewoo hybrid.

 

[Keef]

YSSMAN made the point that Volt discussion should be moved to the Volt thread, so if you still want to respond, link your quotes into there.

This thread is about how Chrysler sucks.

 

[Tornado]

Have we even heard anything about what Chrysler wants to do to combat these? They had their EV program, I've heard nothing of it since the Fiat takeover.

Because they never actually intended to build any of those cars. Something that was made even more obvious when Marchionne canceling them was basically the first thing that Fiat did with the company. Chrysler commissioned those concepts to fleece more money from the government, and since the government bought the whole charade the second that Fiat got the check they canceled them all.

Which is just as well, because the only one anyone would have even bought would have been the rebadged Europa (which I actually really would have liked to have seen as a Dodge, albeit with the original engine).

 

[YSSMAN]

Surely a distinct possibility. Although, I thought Fiat was looking into using the EV junk in the 500. That'd be an interesting vehicle, I think.

 

[psntomaz]

Have y'all thought that the EV program is on hold cause they are tryin to focus on redsigning a whole new lineup of cars? Why have them build EV versions of thier last gen cars? Give them a break. Why work on EV's when they are workin on high Millage mainstream cars.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, That's a New 300C​

Well, I'm not sure what to make of it. It isn't nearly as attractive as I thought it would be, perhaps a little too Sebring for it's own good. Looks like that, this generation, the Charger is the one to go for.

 

[Philly]

I'm definitely not a huge fan of it. The taillights look terrible. At least the rest of it isn't too bad.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

YSS-> I think Chrysler executed the Charger, 300 (pic above), G. Cherokee, Durango, & the Ram quite good. The 300's chromielicious theme suits the blingest of the crowd.

-> The Challenger, T&C, & G. Caravan were decent.

-> While the Avenger, Nitro, and the Caliber were a huge miss (styling-wise overall {interior & exterior}, its just the engine that made it decent).

^ We have to wait and see for the upcoming 200.

 

[Joey D]

Looks like Hertz has a new luxury rental car to go with the new Sebring (200, whatever the hell it's called).

 

[YSSMAN]

^ That is the 200C

^ That is the 300C




Neither end up looking as good as they should/could have.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

^ Well the 200 (in concept form) is far more decent looking than this...

(Euro model shown)

 

[Keef]

EDIT: Nah, I changed my mind. Too weenie.

300Cs should look like somebody's going to roll the window down and shoot you.

 

[Venom800tt]

Hmm, I sorta like this new 300C more than the old one. It comes off as looking more sleek IMO. I'd like to see how they would do a new SRT-8 though...

 

[Tornado]

The new design is kinda "bleh," and it has far too much Audi in it for its own good. Still, if they do the same with this as they have done with the other cars, it will be a home run anyways.

 

[psntomaz]

I don't car what anybody say really,

*the 300 still looks different from anyother car in its class maybe even better looking.
*Its currently the only REAL american luxury sedan
*Its the only fullzise american sedan that's (so far) being compared to "Audi" and could compete with the germans.

 

[Exorcet]

*Its currently the only REAL american luxury sedan
*Its the only fullzise american sedan that's (so far) being compared to "Audi" and could compete with the germans.

CTS?

The only real lux in the US comes from GM. Chrysler is still piddling a level below where it should be. I don't understand what could be more obvious than distinguishing Chrysler and Dodge by actually making them cater to different levels, but I guess I'm not a CEO.

Either way, Charger and 300 both look much better (barring terrible chrome). The 200C is a failure if it's not RWD.

 

[buickgnx88]

Personally I think the new 300 looks horrid. The garish taillights, the Audi-esque headlights, and of course the wheel arches that now make it look like the Subaru Legacy. Oh yeah, from the side, the rear end looks like the previous generation Nissan Altima.