The "Good" Chrysler Thread: Making Vanilla, Vanilla

[Keef]

Who decided to give the Sebring a facelift and change its name?

The chassis is obviously the exact same because the sides and greenhouse of the car are exactly the same. That's probably why Chrysler didn't include a profile shot.

The front and rear honestly look pretty good, I like that design direction, but the fact that they just slapped it on the old chassis because it was ugly shows me they haven't changed much. I'd never buy it. Hell, I'd never even rent it!

 

[mustangGT90210]

Yeah, since the interior is the only thing I see in my car when I'm in my car, I kind of care about it. A lot.

I honestly have yet to find an interior I genuinely would hate looking at, aside from a mini cooper S. The big center mounted speedometer doesn't work for me.

Cranking Vanilla up to 9000!
​

So, take the current Sebring, toss on the rather striking clothes that were once worn by the 200C concept, and you get the Chrysler 200. You get the new and updated engines/transmissions, a nicer interior (based on the Grand Cherokee and Wrangler, how bad can it be?)... Yeah.

Color me underwhelmed. Especially given how awesome the 200C Concept was.

At least it doesn't look like Death came at it with a rake

 

[Omnis]

Yeah, looks better than a Chevy at least.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

Anyone see a skewed-up Hyundai Genesis?

 

[Omnis]

Anyone see a skewed-up Hyundai Genesis?

Yep

Looks like they ripped off the Hyundai Genesis and the G8. And people were complaining about the Koreans ripping Lexus.

 

[YSSMAN]

I had to go back and find the photographs of the 200C concept just to see how far they got away from it. Wow, it's bad. Really bad. I mean, Chrysler does have a problem here with how the Buick Regal came to market first. If we stuck a Waterfall grille on the 200C, yeah, they'd look awfully similar. On the whole, the car doesn't look bad, it just doesn't look as good as it should. Especially considering how nice the actual 200C looked.

What Chrysler should have done is give the boys at Alfa Romeo a ring, ask them what they can do with the suspension and the steering rack, and see if they can get a couple of MutliAirs on loan. Even if the car has the same odd greenhouse as the current Sebring, perhaps with clever tuning and a refreshed style, the car could seem like a semi-legitimate competitor to the Regal, or maybe even the *ahem* Milan (well, Fusion now).


What really gets me is this old promotional picture...

If Chrysler would have stuck with it, having a "poor man's Tesla" and a "luxury" Volt competitor, I could see them doing far better in the near-future compared to wherever they're at now. I keep wondering where the Electric Caravan and Wrangler went.

 

[astrosdude91]

I'm not sure why they decided to put in the ad electric, electric, gas guzzler. Just doesn't seem right. I guess it's the only other new vehicle Chrysler has at the moment.

 

[SuperShouden]

Fiat's really taking charge, aren't they? I mean, new Charger design and there's a new Viper coming in 2012 that's supposed to be based on the Alfa Romeo 8C, which is a Fiat owned company as well. Maybe it'll have a Ferrari V8 or V12.

I wonder what other stuff Fiat will pull out of their hat.

 

[YSSMAN]

I've heard nothing to suggest that the next Viper would have anything other than a V10, but I have come to understand that Ferrari/Maseratti would probably do some work on the overall design of the car. Not much, I assume. Team Viper is probably very protective of their car. We'll see come Detroit.

 

[Philly]

Fiat doesn't have any cars in this size class, do they? Maybe they could have put a Chrysler face on the 159, although isn't that car horrid to drive? And I don't how well the use of a GM platform in a Chrysler would go over.

To be honest, the new 200 looks quite awful next to the 200C. Sure, there are similarities but they just did a bad job watering the design down for production.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

I've heard nothing to suggest that the next Viper would have anything other than a V10, but I have come to understand that Ferrari/Maseratti would probably do some work on the overall design of the car. Not much, I assume. Team Viper is probably very protective of their car. We'll see come Detroit.

Ya, I hope the design stays true to the viper and it comes with a big V10.

 

[Tornado]

What really gets me is this old promotional picture...

If Chrysler would have stuck with it, having a "poor man's Tesla" and a "luxury" Volt competitor, I could see them doing far better in the near-future compared to wherever they're at now. I keep wondering where the Electric Caravan and Wrangler went.

You realize that they never ever ever intended to build any of those, right?

 

[Philly]

Apparently Chrysler thinks a reskin of the worst car in America is good enough for Europe.

Who thought of that?

 

[Tornado]

the worst car in America

How do we know this, exactly?

 

[Jondot]

How do we know this, exactly?

To be fair I can't think of anything worse. Except the Chevy Aveo, but at least that's not an uneconomical barge with a face like Professor Yaffle.

 

[Sniffs]

*dopesmacks Fiat's CEO* don't ruin Lancia's rep, dummy. ask Mercedes if you don't believe me.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

To be fair I can't think of anything worse. Except the Chevy Aveo, but at least that's not an uneconomical barge with a face like Professor Yaffle.

Chevy Aveo = Daewoo

Remember those pieces of ****? Well, they're back and they have GM stickers on it...same with the Chevy Cruze.

Worst car in America actually hasn't been released yet: The Chevy Volt.

Built on an engineered-down to a price Korean chassis, loaded up with batteries to the tune of nearly 4,000lbs, and costs $41,000 + the price/installation of a charger. Even better, it's not really an EV...it's a hybrid...but don't ask GM's PR about that. And the first touted 230MPG that the Volt was supposed to get? Try around 33MPG...on premium fuel. Ouch!

That thing is horrendous. Undeniably the #1 worst car in America if for only the marketing BS...the Chrysler 200 may not even be on the 'worst car' podium. These re-badged Korean/Chinese things Chevrolet have in the pipeline will all be atrocious to the point it will hurt brand equity even more.

People think these little city euro-weenie cars are cute and chic. Do you know what's not cute and chic? Pushing the damn thing up a hill or losing a drag race with a feral dog. Having barely enough room to transport 4 torsos and barely enough HP to motivate itself upwind is not cool despite all the MPGs you won't be getting b/c you're flat-out 100% of the time.

Korean-made eco cars with <1.2L Chinese-made engines. Gets ya all hot & bothered doesn't it?

(Google 'Chevy Spark' and behold the horror...the horror)

 

[GT_Prologue5]

You are wrong, BrutherSuperier.

The worst car in America is the Dodge version of the Sebring, the Avenger.

 

[Tornado]

To be fair I can't think of anything worse.

I can think of several, though it is admittedly a close race (and, for the record, the Avenger was quite a bit better than the Sebring was). That's not the point. This isn't the Sebring. This is the car that is replacing the Sebring. Based on the same platform or not, we already know that the car is getting different engines/transmissions and a different interior.

At this point, we don't even know what the interior looks like, so how exactly can we dictate that this is somehow the worse car on sale in America? Its a load of nonsense.

 

[SuperShouden]

You are wrong, BrutherSuperier.

The worst car in America is the Dodge version of the Sebring, the Avenger.

Yeah the new Sebring/Avenger is VERY ugly. I don't know what Chrysler was thinking with those. Hopefully, Fiat - who knows a thing or two about elegant design - will step in and redesign those, as well.

I'm also hoping the ME 412 will finally be produced. It would probably get a Ferrari V12 instead of the Mercedes V12 it currently has, but it would still be cool to see it produced. 850hp with an estimated top speed of 258mph. Maybe Fiat could help it break the world record.

 

[Philly]

At this point, we don't even know what the interior looks like, so how exactly can we dictate that this is somehow the worse car on sale in America? Its a load of nonsense.

I tried to clarify that this is a reskinned version of the Sebring, one of if not the worst car on sale. True, it could be very different. But I doubt Chrysler would have done enough to make it Europe good.

 

[homeforsummer]

Worst car in America actually hasn't been released yet: The Chevy Volt.

Built on an engineered-down to a price Korean chassis, loaded up with batteries to the tune of nearly 4,000lbs, and costs $41,000 + the price/installation of a charger. Even better, it's not really an EV...it's a hybrid...but don't ask GM's PR about that. And the first touted 230MPG that the Volt was supposed to get? Try around 33MPG...on premium fuel. Ouch!

That thing is horrendous. Undeniably the #1 worst car in America if for only the marketing BS...the Chrysler 200 may not even be on the 'worst car' podium. These re-badged Korean/Chinese things Chevrolet have in the pipeline will all be atrocious to the point it will hurt brand equity even more.

You're wrong on so many levels.

Firstly, that it's not been released yet. It has.

Secondly, it's not on a korean chassis. It's on GM's Delta II platform, which is a GM platform that happens to also be used by Daewoo and it was developed by Opel in Germany, nowhere near either Korea or the U.S.

Thirdly, you've bought wholesale into the Jalopnik/Autoblog/whoever else school of panic and scorn that in some conditions the Volt has semi-direct drive from range-extending engine to the wheels. It does, but only when the batteries have run down. In which case the range-extender would kick in anyway, so what does it matter if the wheels are being powered by it?

It's still capable of doing 70+ mph on electric power alone for 40 miles. Not possible in a Prius.

Fourthly, you've failed to see how the journos on the launch were testing it. They were giving it big runs out to a point where the petrol motor kicked in. Of course you're not gonna do 230mpg if you use the gas engine every day. But presuming your commute is less than 40 miles each way (which according to GM, the vast majority of commutes are) and you get to charge it at home and at work.

Let's say you do 80 miles a day then, five days a week, and maybe another 200 miles each weekend at 30mpg. On an average four week per month basis then, you'll use 26.7 gallons of gasoline a month, and do 2400 miles per month (1600 miles during weekdays, 800 miles on weekends). Now if my maths are correct, 2400 miles/26.7 gallons is just under 90mpg. Not looking so bad now, is it? And that's assuming that you'll use the thing to do hundreds of miles every weekend. If you only do that 200 miles with the gas motor going on one weekend and use 6.6 gallons, that's now 1800 miles per month and economy of 272mpg. People who barely ever need the petrol motor to kick in will get huge economy.

If people are buying a Volt expecting to get 230mpg all day every day then it's not Chevrolet misleading them - it's them being stupid.

People think these little city euro-weenie cars are cute and chic. Do you know what's not cute and chic? Pushing the damn thing up a hill or losing a drag race with a feral dog. Having barely enough room to transport 4 torsos and barely enough HP to motivate itself upwind is not cool despite all the MPGs you won't be getting b/c you're flat-out 100% of the time.

Likewise, Chevy Spark and Smart ForTwo aside you don't get any "Euro-weenie cars" over there so I'm not sure what you're basing your judgement off. The smallest cars other than that are Fits, MINIs, Fiestas and the like and all of those are more than suitable for U.S. roads, as attested by the thousands of people who've bought them.

Not saying they're suitable for all situations, but if people in those sort of things can cope on de-restricted Autobahns in Germany (which they can) then if you can't manage in the States in one you're probably best off driving something else for your own good...

 

[Sniffs]

Home, the guy is a Patriot type. "euro weenie" refers to any car smaller than a US mid size. Guys like this are the only ones that keep the US car market alive for american style products. some people are offended by the swarm of "foreign" stuff, while forgetting that we got plenty of Euro-Weenies before 1980

 

[BrutherSuperior]

It's still capable of doing 70+ mph on electric power alone for 40 miles. Not possible in a Prius.

And you've bought into GM's PR w/o looking at the big picture. It's a hybrid, a fancy hybrid, but a hybrid none the less...except, there's a $7,500 check written by out broke gov't to whoever leases one of these hybrids.

Here's the thing; that's a heavy car. It takes a certain amount of energy to accelerate an object w/in an acceptable amount of time right? Heavier the car, the more energy it will need to move it. Secondly, go commute to work. Notice how many hills there are and how many lights you stop at. Also keep in mind that you have the radio/lights/defrosters/whatever running while your car is stopped.

And here's the real kicker; this is supposed to be a 'city' car right? Well, most people who live in crowded cities do not have a garage to install their $2500 charger. You park in streets or in lots b/c you live in a flat, a condo, or rent an apartment. If you live in a city and have a house w/a garage - you've got/had some $$$. If you live in a city and work in a city, you use public transportation. Parking is expensive and traffic is terrible even w/o road works.

If you live in the 'burbs and work in the city - you drive to a lot and take public transportation to avoid traffic congestion & outrageous parking fees.

So who is this car for? Not for people who commute in stop-n-go rush hour traffic for over an hour both ways. Not for people who do not have a garage. And if you live in the city and work in the suburbs, well, you're SOL as you have outrageous insurance costs and a crappy commute.

So who will buy these? Fat suburban housewives who want their husband to buy them a new fashion accessory, university professors, and hipsters with more money/credit than brains.

This vehicle does not make any sense. People who live in cities use cars to GTFO out of the city, not prod around in it while following a bus at 10mph.

Ever forget to charge your phone or laptop? Ya...people are always going to charge their car so they can reach their MPG utopia. And if you happen to live in a hilly/mountainous area - good luck...especially if it's a snowy winter or a hot summer day.

This car is a solution to made-up problem and it costs a fortune.

The Chevy Volt is a Chevy Cruze which is a Daewoo Matiz. A $41,000 Daewoo that has to be 'plugged in' every evening and requires premium fuel for best MPG. The battery has an 8-year shelf-life; would you pay that much $ for a vehicle that will only last 8 years? I hope not.

This car is an abomination.

 

[Jondot]

I can think of several, though it is admittedly a close race (and, for the record, the Avenger was quite a bit better than the Sebring was). That's not the point. This isn't the Sebring. This is the car that is replacing the Sebring. Based on the same platform or not, we already know that the car is getting different engines/transmissions and a different interior.

At this point, we don't even know what the interior looks like, so how exactly can we dictate that this is somehow the worse car on sale in America? Its a load of nonsense.

Point taken, though these pictures aren't exactly confidence inspiring. But who knows, maybe it'll have a fantastic interior and they just don't want to show it off here. Or they haven't designed it yet.

The Chevy Volt is a Chevy Cruze which is a Daewoo Matiz.

And I'm a kitty cat, meow!

 

[YSSMAN]

Here's the thing; that's a heavy car. It takes a certain amount of energy to accelerate an object w/in an acceptable amount of time right? Heavier the car, the more energy it will need to move it.

Keeping in mind that the car was developed in fewer than four years, is generally speaking on the cutting edge of powertrain technology, and will likely decide the future of a lot of tech not just for GM, but for Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and so on... The car is a big deal. Regardless of whether or not you like it. The simple fact of the matter is that, while it is by all means very heavy for a car it's size, it still drives like a real car. Something that the Nissan Leaf was not able to match, and I still suspect that the Tesla Model S won't be able to replicate either.

Secondly, go commute to work. Notice how many hills there are and how many lights you stop at. Also keep in mind that you have the radio/lights/defrosters/whatever running while your car is stopped.

Here, I'm failing to see your point. Whether you are in an electric, hybrid, gasoline or diesel vehicle, hills and idling, along with running your accessories will drain the juice and kill your economy. The Volt makes compromises because of it's mission; To be the first electric vehicle for everyone. Really, it is not a difficult idea to wrap your head around.

And here's the real kicker; this is supposed to be a 'city' car right? Well, most people who live in crowded cities do not have a garage to install their $2500 charger. You park in streets or in lots b/c you live in a flat, a condo, or rent an apartment. If you live in a city and have a house w/a garage - you've got/had some $$$. If you live in a city and work in a city, you use public transportation. Parking is expensive and traffic is terrible even w/o road works.

You've neglected several things at hand here:
1) General Motors is working with several large cities and other urban areas to develop a network of charging stations for their vehicle. Cities like NYC, San Francisco, Washington D.C. (among others) will be adding curbside charging stations for drivers.
2) It seems likely that, as public demand for EVs increase, parking garages will begin to add charging stations. Furthermore, that businesses will add charging stations for employees and customers. I seem to recall reading several times that Wal*Mart is starting to look into this early, just to be ahead of the curve.
3) Those who live in the city and use public transportation, or walk, or bike aren't going to be looking at any kind of car. Regardless of how much fuel it does/does not use. Generally speaking, if you live in a large enough city with a well-designed public transportation system, you'd be an idiot not to use it.

So who is this car for?

Everyone. General Motors wouldn't be building the car if they didn't believe a large number of people are willing to buy it. If you drive fewer than 40 miles a day, it is just about perfect. Zero of the regular compromises required by an EV, just a shade more green than your average Prius or Insight, certainly far more of a car than either one of those as well.

And if you happen to live in a hilly/mountainous area - good luck...especially if it's a snowy winter or a hot summer day.

I assume you know little about the battery heating and cooling system. Furthermore, the different drive systems that have been developed for the Volt to maximize performance when in hilly regions, or when puttering around in town.

This car is a solution to made-up problem and it costs a fortune.

What problem? A fortune compared to what? The Nissan Leaf? A Tesla Model S? Or a "regular" Chevrolet Cruze Eco? I'd love to have a rational discussion about the pros and cons of the vehicle (best left to the Volt thread), but I feel as though you have little/no data to prove your side of the argument.

This car is an abomination.

Learn some more about the vehicle and make a legitimate decision, please.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

blah-blah-blah

The Chevy Volt is a hybrid, not an EV. It's based on a $15,000 Daewoo and gets poor gas mileage for a hybrid. It costs more than a 3-series BMW. THINK-ABOUT-THAT.

It doesn't matter how 'green' the GM marketing team says it is. It has a bigger problem; its a Chevy that looks very similar to the econo-box Cruze.

Chevy earned their poor reputation the hard way; by making **** cars since the 1970's. Think that perception is going to change b/c of the Volt? No, it won't.

Here's a better example of a 'green' car that failed miserably; the Honda Civic Hybrid. No one bought them. They were priced right, Honda has a great reputation, it's a gas sipper, and did everything well...except sell. Why? Only reason I can come up with is that it wasn't a Prius, which is looked at as something special.

The Civic hybrid didn't sell b/c it looks like a Civic. So what did they do? They made their next hybrid release look like a Prius. Hybrids are fashion accessories, and from a distance you will have to be quite a car bore to distinguish a Volt from a Cruze. A Prius? Even a smoked-out hippy can tell the difference between that and any other Toyota.

And that price tag. My God...$41,000. Use an on-line payment calculator and take out the $7500 subsidy; this isn't a car 'for everybody' and I'd be really interested to see what the depreciation is at 5yrs. $0?

For BMW 3-Series money, you'd be an idiot to buy a Volt. And by idiot, I mean some Hollywood weirdo, a techy, hipster w/a trust fund, or a tenured professor of art history.

What EV has a chance to get to 'fashionable' status; the Nissan Leaf. That car has a chance to sell b/c it looks like nothing else, doesn't have the rep of a bailed out US car company, and is a true EV. The Chevy? No way. After you get past the flashing light tech, fancy buttons, and whatever add-ons; it's a hybrid Chevy Cruise that will drive like a Chevy Cruise...which is to say drive like a Korean econo-box.

The Volt is doomed.

 

[Sniffs]

1. dude, wait for Consumer Reports to come out and lambaste the thing, first.

2. your starting to sound like a Corporate Troll!

 

[homeforsummer]

And you've bought into GM's PR w/o looking at the big picture. It's a hybrid, a fancy hybrid, but a hybrid none the less...except, there's a $7,500 check written by out broke gov't to whoever leases one of these hybrids.

You'll note that nowhere did I say it isn't a hybrid. What I said was that it can run for far longer in EV mode, and at higher speeds than a Prius.

And here's the real kicker; this is supposed to be a 'city' car right?

No. Hence the 300+ mile range when you include the gas engine. It's a regular passenger car, not a city car.

Well, most people who live in crowded cities do not have a garage to install their $2500 charger. You park in streets or in lots b/c you live in a flat, a condo, or rent an apartment. If you live in a city and have a house w/a garage - you've got/had some $$$. If you live in a city and work in a city, you use public transportation. Parking is expensive and traffic is terrible even w/o road works.

Then these people won't have cars in the first place, will they? It's not a case of the Volt not being suitable, it's that no car would be suitable.

If you live in the 'burbs and work in the city - you drive to a lot and take public transportation to avoid traffic congestion & outrageous parking fees.

That's why it can do more than 40 miles, but the research shows that many don't.

This vehicle does not make any sense. People who live in cities use cars to GTFO out of the city, not prod around in it while following a bus at 10mph.

Of course it makes sense. If you have a sub-40 mile commute (i.e. the vast majority of people) then you'll rarely use the gas engine, but if you actually have to go somewhere at the weekend or whatever, you don't need to stop for a half hour recharge every 100 miles like a normal EV.

And as I've already said, the Volt can run purely in EV mode for up to 40 miles. The EV mode isn't just for nipping about in city centres like the Prius, it's to actually drive with for decent distance.

Ever forget to charge your phone or laptop? Ya...people are always going to charge their car so they can reach their MPG utopia. And if you happen to live in a hilly/mountainous area - good luck...especially if it's a snowy winter or a hot summer day.

Err... that's why the car's batteries are heated/cooled, to maintain their range. And I don't exactly see what you're getting at - are you suggesting people will forget to charge the car? Or that sticking it on charge when you're parked up is somehow some kind of inconvenience?

The Chevy Volt is a Chevy Cruze which is a Daewoo Matiz.

No it isn't. You're completely, utterly wrong.

It's a German platform. Learn to read. The Volt is based on it, the Cruze is based on it, the Matiz is something completely different.

The battery has an 8-year shelf-life; would you pay that much $ for a vehicle that will only last 8 years? I hope not.

No it doesn't.

The battery has an eight year warranty. And since there are Prius running about with 300,000 miles on the clock on the original battery, I think it's fairly safe to assume that Volts will be able to do the same.

And that price tag. My God...$41,000. Use an on-line payment calculator and take out the $7500 subsidy; this isn't a car 'for everybody' and I'd be really interested to see what the depreciation is at 5yrs. $0?

According to virtually every automotive valuation organisation, depreciation is expected to be no different to any other car.

The Volt is doomed.

It's only people who know absolutely nothing about the car, such as yourself as you've managed to prove above, who'll never buy something like it.

To many people it's a very good compromise between the old and the new. For many, a Nissan Leaf or similar will be absolutely fine for doing the daily commute with a 100 mile range, but if they wanted to go away at the weekend they'd have to have another car.

A halfway-house like the Volt allows them to get away with just the one vehicle.

 

[Joey D]

The Chevy Volt is a Chevy Cruze which is a Daewoo Matiz. A $41,000 Daewoo that has to be 'plugged in' every evening and requires premium fuel for best MPG. The battery has an 8-year shelf-life; would you pay that much $ for a vehicle that will only last 8 years? I hope not.

Ummm no, it's on the Delta II platform which means it shares it's platform with a Daewoo Lacetti Premiere, not a Matiz. That Matiz is on the Gamma II, which is the same as the Chevy Beat and Opel Corsa.

It doesn't matter how 'green' the GM marketing team says it is. It has a bigger problem; its a Chevy that looks very similar to the econo-box Cruze.

Having seen both cars in person, numerous times, they do not look a thing a like other then the corporate grill. You might as well say the Dodge Ram and Viper look similar.

And that price tag. My God...$41,000. Use an on-line payment calculator and take out the $7500 subsidy; this isn't a car 'for everybody' and I'd be really interested to see what the depreciation is at 5yrs. $0?

Low $30k for a car is not uncommon now. A Chevy Impala can run upwards of $32,000 and there is absolutely nothing interesting with that car. At least the Volt has some sort of new technology on it and isn't based on a platform dating back to the 1980's like the Impala.

For BMW 3-Series money, you'd be an idiot to buy a Volt. And by idiot, I mean some Hollywood weirdo, a techy, hipster w/a trust fund, or a tenured professor of art history.

Niche cars are the in thing. If Hollywood types or yuppies who want to be green buy it, I highly doubt GM cares. They want to move cars and if those people are willing to front the cash what does it matter? And I highly doubt anyone would cross shop and 3-series with a Volt as they appeal to different market groups.

The Volt is doomed.

Maybe, but not for any of the reasons you listed. The Volt is doomed only based on the cost of fuel. It will only sell really well (in America) if fuel goes back up to $4.00+ a gallon.