The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[axletramp]

Phwoar!

Oh, err...

 

[FoolKiller]

Nope.

<crocs pic>

Challenge accepted.

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Yes.

 

[DK]

Awful. Russia has a horrific record for human rights.

Let's balance it out with some good news.

Very short, but very significant article.

Here's The Onion's NSFW response.

If you read more into this subject, he's only slightly softening the Church's stance on gays. The strange thing is, seeing as he's against "judging" them, it's easy to assume that he doesn't see being gay as a sin - and, as a corollary, that being gay isn't a choice.

 

[Liquid]

Well it's a start, but he's still the head of an organisation infamed for covering up child rape, having policies that maintain the spread of AIDS in Africa and having homophobia as dogmatic scripture.

So I'd hold back on giving him a peace prize just yet.

 

[playnthru]

Basically that's how I read it! Forgive the child rapist?

But Pope Francis said gay clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.

He doesn't seem to have a issue with a normal consensual gay relationships. And he does not seem to be calling that type of relationship a sin. So that leads me to believe he's saying forgive rapist clergymen?

That's not such a great start.👎

I do hope I'm wrong though.

 

[PeterJB]

Basically that's how I read it! Forgive the child rapist?

But Pope Francis said gay clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.

He doesn't seem to have a issue with a normal consensual gay relationships. And he does not seem to be calling that type of relationship a sin. So that leads me to believe he's saying forgive rapist clergymen?

That's not such a great start.👎

I do hope I'm wrong though.

Pedophilia and Homosexuality are separate orientations. Being a pedophile does not make you gay. It's more to do with power and control than same-sex attraction.

 

[playnthru]

Sure I understand that. I would never say someone who is gay is a pedophile, that's not what I meant to imply.

It just seem's to read he's saying that if someone is a pedophile and gay, they should be forgiven.

I don't believe being gay is a sin or that it's wrong in any way. That's why I'm struggling with his comments I guess.

 

[PeterJB]

Except he never said pedophile priests, he said gay ones.

 

[FoolKiller]

Sure I understand that. I would never say someone who is gay is a pedophile, that's not what I meant to imply.

It just seem's to read he's saying that if someone is a pedophile and gay, they should be forgiven.

Ignorant bigots equate homosexuality to pedophilia and beastiality. The pope says to forgive gay clergy and you do the same to him.

This last day's worth of posts shows me things go both ways.

Knowing scripture you would see where he gets the phrasing he uses when he asks who he is to judge. He is referencing scripture and what it says about judging others in God's name.

Reading more into it is reading more into out of the same ignorance that we try to educate out of homophobes.

You have the first pope since homosexuality became open to society that is not damning a group of people he does not understand (or perhaps he does, hmm?) and you must find a way to make him a villain.

 

[playnthru]

Did you even read what I said?

I've made no one a villain! I've said nothing of the sort! All I said was I didn't understand what he meant and listed why.

To you that means I'm a bigot, a homophobe and blah blah blah.. Clearly you read nothing I wrote PAL CLEARLY!

 

[FoolKiller]

Did you even read what I said?

I've made no one a villain! I've said nothing of the sort! All I said was I didn't understand what he meant and listed why.

He said who is he to judge and gay clergy should be forgiven. What was so hard to understand? And where did he say anything about pedophilia or rape? You have to assume a logical jump that gay clergy also means rapist/pedophile priests. Unless he says otherwise it means that no more than homosexual means pedophile.

To you that means I'm a bigot, a homophobe and blah blah blah.. Clearly you read nothing I wrote PAL CLEARLY!

I said you were saying the same things about him that homophobes and bigots say about homosexuals. You made a leap from gay clergy to rapist clergy.

Basically that's how I read it! Forgive the child rapist?

But Pope Francis said gay clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.

He doesn't seem to have a issue with a normal consensual gay relationships. And he does not seem to be calling that type of relationship a sin. So that leads me to believe he's saying forgive rapist clergymen?

That's not such a great start.👎

I do hope I'm wrong though.

Let me back up to this point.

Unless he says otherwise, assume you are wrong instead of assuming he is just another ignorant bigot who thinks homosexual means rapist pedophile.

Keep in mind, this whole thing began a while back with him talking about gay lobbying efforts within the church. He is fully aware that there are homosexual clergy who are not acting out in a horrible way. Unless of course, the homosexual lobby is the Vatican chapter of NAMBLA. I have a feeling he wouldn't take that so lightly.

So, my point is you have to make a leap of logic to "believe" he means rapist clergy. If you believe that is what he means then it is a leap of logic the other side makes as well.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I was stunned by the Pope's words myself. I'm not a Catholic by any means, but I never thought that in my lifetime I would see the Pope soften the RC position on homosexuality. I believe this is nothing short of a giant leap forward in terms of Catholicism and homosexuality.

 

[niky]

He's an unusual Pope. Wasn't the strongest choice, politically... but I think the conclave wanted someone more media-friendly and down-to-earth (like John Paul II) after the rather conservative Benedict.

Working, so far. Not going back into the fold, but I'm happy for any change in the status quo.

 

[Omnis]

I'm kind of confused by what the Pope said, but I think it's because of how everyone is spinning it. The church's position in my view has always been that homosexuals should be loved as any fellow man (not buttsex loved though), even though homosexuality should not be endorsed. A tolerance while encouraging them to come to the right side in the eyes of the church, if you will.

The Pope said that if homosexuals were seeking Jesus, then who was he to judge. I don't think it's correct to say that the church now thinks homosexuality is hunky-dory fine and dandy.

&#8220;If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?&#8221;

I take this to mean that gays should not be shunned if they are seeking what the church has to offer. In other words, that they should not be prevented from coming to side with the holy doctrine just because they are gay or sinners or whatever.

 

[Carbonox]

Still better than Swift, who went claiming years ago that a gay can't be a "real" Christian until they become straight.

 

[FoolKiller]

Still better than Swift, who went claiming years ago that a gay can't be a "real" Christian until they become straight.

Every group does this though.

Real Americans
Real Republicans
Real Conservatives
Real Libertarians
Real Liberals
Real Christians
Real Catholics
Real African Americans
Real [insert special interest group]

I once heard a gay man say bisexuals were lying about being real homosexuals. Every person in every group has this view of what is required to be in their group. Some want to claim people on the outside should be on the inside and that some on the inside don't belong. Anyone that identifies with a specific group will do it because their self-image is affected by the identity of their group.

 

[playnthru]

He said who is he to judge and gay clergy should be forgiven. What was so hard to understand? And where did he say anything about pedophilia or rape? You have to assume a logical jump that gay clergy also means rapist/pedophile priests. Unless he says otherwise it means that no more than homosexual means pedophile.


I said you were saying the same things about him that homophobes and bigots say about homosexuals. You made a leap from gay clergy to rapist clergy.


Let me back up to this point.

Unless he says otherwise, assume you are wrong instead of assuming he is just another ignorant bigot who thinks homosexual means rapist pedophile.

Keep in mind, this whole thing began a while back with him talking about gay lobbying efforts within the church. He is fully aware that there are homosexual clergy who are not acting out in a horrible way. Unless of course, the homosexual lobby is the Vatican chapter of NAMBLA. I have a feeling he wouldn't take that so lightly.

So, my point is you have to make a leap of logic to "believe" he means rapist clergy. If you believe that is what he means then it is a leap of logic the other side makes as well.

My point here is that the church as taken the attitude 'forgive and forget' with all their rapist clergy. That is no leap of logic. It's church SOP for centuries they have continued to take offending clergy shuffle them to seminaries, then return them to a new parish only to rape again. The church has done this repeatedly for centuries, it's SOP! So when I read the Popes comments it reads as more SOP and is unclear to me whom he's speaking of. So it's a very logical 'jump'. Really more like a very short hop.

So what you said is not really accurate in my mind. It does not take into account church history at all. The Popes comments are just to broad and seem far more political in nature, which is understandable really.

I'm not trying to make the man a villain. I didn't say he's done wrong! I'm saying his comments sound alarmingly like SOP. And could easily apply to the good clergy as well as rapist clergy. Some clarity is in order here. Taking his words at face value leads back to SOP in my mind. That scares me more than anything. He's repeating the mantra that they've used with rapist for years 'forgive forget' oh my they've done it again whoops.

I'll look forward to the future with the Pope. He has my support 100% but I won't be so blind as to forget the churches past. I'm not trying to judge him at all. His words, when looked at in the big scheme of things are very unclear.

All that being said I'm happy he's saying something about the subject. I hope he goes on to expand his thoughts on the matter. I truly hope this opens the churches doors to accepting gay marriage, gay rights and stop all this silly 'it's a sin' business the church pulls. That in my mind is the biggest sin of all.

 

[Dotini]

I'm thinking homosexuality would go beyond alternative lifestyle into a serious problem if the person were running for President of the United States. Since we still live in a world where homophobia is rampant, a gay president could never command the wide-ranging respect, credibility and authority that the office might require. And if the person were closeted, he/she would be subject to blackmail from within the NSA and other snooping agencies.

What do you think?

 

[FoolKiller]

At what point has anything this pope has done been SOP? The interview itself was against the advice of his advisors. Carrying his own luggage was not SOP.

But lets get the full context.
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/pope-homosexuals-who-am-i-judge

It appears the question was about a case where a recent appointee of his was accused of homosexual acts in his past.

The Ricca case

"I did what canon law requires, which is to conduct a preliminary investigation. We didn't find anything to confirm the things he was accused of, there was nothing. ... I'd like to add that many times we seem to seek out the sins of somebody's youth and publish them. We're not talking about crimes, which are something else. The abuse of minors, for instance, is a crime. But one can sin and then convert, and the Lord both forgives and forgets. We don't have the right to refuse to forget ... it's dangerous. The theology of sin is important. St. Peter committed one of the greatest sins, denying Christ, and yet they made him pope. Think about that."

Oh look, he directly addressed it, called it a crime, said we don't have the right to forget that...because it is dangerous, and that any forgiveness they do receive will be up to God, where he has no clue what will happen.

There you have it. Past sins shouldn't be drudge up years later, but that is different from crimes. Does directly addressing them and calling them crimes sound like SOP to you?

As for his comments on homosexuals in general:

Gay lobby

"There's a lot of talk about the gay lobby, but I've never seen it on the Vatican ID card."

"When I meet a gay person, I have to distinguish between their being gay and being part of a lobby. If they accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them? They shouldn't be marginalized. The tendency [to homosexuality] is not the problem ... they're our brothers."

I should also point out, that to your point, an openly homosexual politician in Italy likes that he separated homosexuality from pedophilia, breaking through the stigma.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10208802/Pope-Francis-reaches-out-to-gays.html

&#8220;At a stroke, Pope Francis has done an astounding thing, separating the issue of homosexuality from paedophilia,&#8221; said Nichi Vendola, one of Italy&#8217;s very few openly gay politicians.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm thinking homosexuality would go beyond alternative lifestyle into a serious problem if the person were running for President of the United States. Since we still live in a world where homophobia is rampant, a gay president could never command the wide-ranging respect, credibility and authority that the office might require. And if the person were closeted, he/she would be subject to blackmail from within the NSA and other snooping agencies.

What do you think?

I think you'll find out in 3 years when Hilary runs for President.

 

[Omnis]

Saw Cardinal Dolan being interviewed by the insufferable Matt Lauer. He basically backed up what I had to say.

 

[playnthru]

I like that he separated it too! I don't think they are same thing either. Being gay and being a rapist are completely different subjects.

The links you posted did provide some clarity though, thanks. I had not read those yet and they give a bit more insight. Which was really what I was after here, clarity and insight, thanks again.

 

[Danny]

All that being said I'm happy he's saying something about the subject. I hope he goes on to expand his thoughts on the matter. I truly hope this opens the churches doors to accepting gay marriage, gay rights and stop all this silly 'it's a sin' business the church pulls. That in my mind is the biggest sin of all.

 

[Denur]

Well said, Stephen. 👍

source

By Stephen Fry
August 7th, 2013

Dear Prime Minister, M Rogge, Lord Coe and Members of the International Olympic Committee,

I write in the earnest hope that all those with a love of sport and the Olympic spirit will consider the stain on the Five Rings that occurred when the 1936 Berlin Olympics proceeded under the exultant aegis of a tyrant who had passed into law, two years earlier, an act which singled out for special persecution a minority whose only crime was the accident of their birth. In his case he banned Jews from academic tenure or public office, he made sure that the police turned a blind eye to any beatings, thefts or humiliations afflicted on them, he burned and banned books written by them. He claimed they “polluted” the purity and tradition of what it was to be German, that they were a threat to the state, to the children and the future of the Reich. He blamed them simultaneously for the mutually exclusive crimes of Communism and for the controlling of international capital and banks. He blamed them for ruining the culture with their liberalism and difference. The Olympic movement at that time paid precisely no attention to this evil and proceeded with the notorious Berlin Olympiad, which provided a stage for a gleeful Führer and only increased his status at home and abroad. It gave him confidence. All historians are agreed on that. What he did with that confidence we all know.

Putin is eerily repeating this insane crime, only this time against LGBT Russians. Beatings, murders and humiliations are ignored by the police. Any defence or sane discussion of homosexuality is against the law. Any statement, for example, that Tchaikovsky was gay and that his art and life reflects this sexuality and are an inspiration to other gay artists would be punishable by imprisonment. It is simply not enough to say that gay Olympians may or may not be safe in their village. The IOC absolutely must take a firm stance on behalf of the shared humanity it is supposed to represent against the barbaric, fascist law that Putin has pushed through the Duma. Let us not forget that Olympic events used not only to be athletic, they used to include cultural competitions. Let us realise that in fact, sport is cultural. It does not exist in a bubble outside society or politics. The idea that sport and politics don’t connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with everything for “politics” is simply the Greek for “to do with the people”.

An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is simply essential. Stage them elsewhere in Utah, Lillyhammer, anywhere you like. At all costs Putin cannot be seen to have the approval of the civilised world.

He is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews. He cannot be allowed to get away with it. I know whereof I speak. I have visited Russia, stood up to the political deputy who introduced the first of these laws, in his city of St Petersburg. I looked into the face of the man and, on camera, tried to reason with him, counter him, make him understand what he was doing. All I saw reflected back at me was what Hannah Arendt called, so memorably, “the banality of evil.” A stupid man, but like so many tyrants, one with an instinct of how to exploit a disaffected people by finding scapegoats. Putin may not be quite as oafish and stupid as Deputy Milonov but his instincts are the same. He may claim that the “values” of Russia are not the “values” of the West, but this is absolutely in opposition to Peter the Great’s philosophy, and against the hopes of millions of Russians, those not in the grip of that toxic mix of shaven headed thuggery and bigoted religion, those who are agonised by the rolling back of democracy and the formation of a new autocracy in the motherland that has suffered so much (and whose music, literature and drama, incidentally I love so passionately).

I am gay. I am a Jew. My mother lost over a dozen of her family to Hitler’s anti-Semitism. Every time in Russia (and it is constantly) a gay teenager is forced into suicide, a lesbian “correctively” raped, gay men and women beaten to death by neo-Nazi thugs while the Russian police stand idly by, the world is diminished and I for one, weep anew at seeing history repeat itself.

“All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing,” so wrote Edmund Burke. Are you, the men and women of the IOC going to be those “good” who allow evil to triumph?

The Summer Olympics of 2012 were one of the most glorious moments of my life and the life of my country. For there to be a Russian Winter Olympics would stain the movement forever and wipe away any of that glory. The Five Rings would finally be forever smeared, besmirched and ruined in the eyes of the civilised world.

I am begging you to resist the pressures of pragmatism, of money, of the oily cowardice of diplomats and to stand up resolutely and proudly for humanity the world over, as your movement is pledged to do. Wave your Olympic flag with pride as we gay men and women wave our Rainbow flag with pride. Be brave enough to live up to the oaths and protocols of your movement, which I remind you of verbatim below.

Rule 4 Cooperate with the competent public or private organisations and authorities in the endeavour to place sport at the service of humanity and thereby to promote peace

Rule 6: Act against any form of discrimination affecting the Olympic Movement

Rule 15 Encourage and support initiatives blending sport with culture and education

I especially appeal to you, Prime Minister, a man for whom I have the utmost respect. As the leader of a party I have for almost all of my life opposed and instinctively disliked, you showed a determined, passionate and clearly honest commitment to LGBT rights and helped push gay marriage through both houses of our parliament in the teeth of vehement opposition from so many of your own side. For that I will always admire you, whatever other differences may lie between us. In the end I believe you know when a thing is wrong or right. Please act on that instinct now.

Yours in desperate hope for humanity

Stephen Fry

 

[axletramp]

Fantastic stuff. 👍 Let's hope there's a campaign for this both through traditional and social media.

 

[Rage Racer]

You guys take this "Russian gay propaganda law" too seriously. If a foreign man "propagands homosexualism" (as they call it), he'll be fined 4000-5000 roubles ($130-160), if he uses mass media (including the Internet) for it, the fine can be up to 1 million roubles (~$33,000). The law also provides optional 15-day administrative arrest or deportation from the country for foreigners, but I think they're not so stupid to arrest or deport Olympic guests.

However, I agree that this country I live in has much more serious problems to treat than gay propaganda. Why doesn't the government build better roads instead of persecuting gay people? They're just trying to distract us from real issues.

 

[Danny]

You guys take this "Russian gay propaganda law" too seriously.

Is that right?

 

[Danoff]

However, I agree that this country I live in has much more serious problems to treat than gay propaganda. Why doesn't the government build better roads instead of persecuting gay people? They're just trying to distract us from real issues.

We do that here too. It's a way to distract from the real issues. Half the time the politicians are talking about issues they don't even have any control over. Why is that congressman or presidential candidate talking about abortion? I have no idea! He has zero input into that subject. Meanwhile he doesn't address the TSA, NSA, Quantitative Easing, Taxes, Internet Regulation, etc. etc... real issues that he has some control over that Americans actually care about.

 

[ShobThaBob]

All that being said I'm happy he's saying something about the subject. I hope he goes on to expand his thoughts on the matter. I truly hope this opens the churches doors to accepting gay marriage, gay rights and stop all this silly 'it's a sin' business the church pulls. That in my mind is the biggest sin of all.

I don't see why. The scripture is pretty clear on their stances and nothing rescinded it. I don't understand how Christians can believe it's not a sin when it clearly says that it is. The church has the right to not treat everyone equally, and there's nothing wrong with that. The hardest thing to accept is the reality that parts of "The Good Book" are actually just stupid and wrong.

 

[Rage Racer]

Is that right?

Look, a gay pride is a massive meeting. Any massive meeting must be agreed with the authorities. But they NEVER agree with any gay prides. So the LGBT communities carry them out illegally. And the authorities have nothing to do but to use the riot control forces to stop the unauthorized meeting. The same happens to unauthorized opposition rallies as well.
And those "anti-gay protesters" - they're just crazy homophobic morons who decided to join the party on the stronger side.
No law enforcers in Russia intend to persecute gay people because of the fact they're gay, or disband LGBT communities. Just gay marriage, prides, and since recently - propaganda are not okay.

@ Danoff
Yes, that's what I'm talkng about. There's a Russian joke appeared recently, translating it:

A Proton-M rocket has crashed. Possible causes are:

1) American child adopters
2) Blashphemers
3) Gay people
4) Alexey Navalniy (the opposition activist who was imprisoned recently)