The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Famine]

But if anyone tries to tell something like "children, become gay, it's better than being straight!" - this would be punishable.

But not if someone tries to say something like "children, become straight, it's better than being gay!"?

Incidentally, still waiting on that answer of how gay pride "imposes" homosexual lifestyle on people (and especially children).

And again, nobody is going to be imprisoned. The worst of what this law provides is a 15-day administrative arrest, it's kinda different from imprisoning.

Really? Only it sounds exactly the same.

 

[Rage Racer]

But not if someone tries to say something like "children, become straight, it's better than being gay!"?

This would be okay - according to the law, straight propaganda is not banned.

Incidentally, still waiting on that answer of how gay pride "imposes" homosexual lifestyle on people (and especially children).

I've told - they actually do not. But gay prides are still undesirable for most of us to see on streets.

Really? Only it sounds exactly the same.

It's different. Administrative arrest is given in Russia and some other countries (Ukraine, Belarus, etc.) for serious offenses when the circumstances make use of other penalties (such as fine) is not enough, but it doesn't make a criminal record.

 

[Danny]

This would be okay - according to the law, straight propaganda is not banned.

...and how is this fair?

I've told - they actually do not. But gay prides are still undesirable for most of us to see on streets.

...but why?

It's different. Administrative arrest is given in Russia and some other countries (Ukraine, Belarus, etc.) for serious offenses when the circumstances make use of other penalties (such as fine) is not enough, but it doesn't make a criminal record.

Criminal record or not, an arrest is still an arrest.

 

[Liquid]

God damn, Russia.

I fully support the boycott of the Winter Olympics there. And the World Cup there. And the World Cup in Qatar.

It's a shameful reflection of so called 'first world' countries or organisations, who love to pride themselves on the freedom they offer, when they freely negotiate contracts and events with countries who have disgusting stances on civil rights.

But hey, money talks...

 

[Carbonox]

God damn, Russia.

I fully support the boycott of the Winter Olympics there.

I would support it too, if Lindsey "I have a girl's name" Graham and friends didn't use Snowden as an excuse.

 

[Com Fox]

I am 100% percent for homosexuals. They want to show love for each other, let them have it. Just because someone is gay or a lesbian does not mean they are a different person. They are the same people as you met them (If you met anyone who became a homosexual later on) as they are now and don't deserve any punishment just because they are not straight, it is not right .

 

[Johnnypenso]

America has had 237 years of democracy to sort out it's issues with gays and still homosexuals can't get married in most places in the country and discrimination is fairly common I would assume. In many countries in the world you can be put to death for being an openly homosexual man or woman. It was only in the last 15 years as I understand it that it was removed from a list of Russian "mental disorders" and for much of the 21st century laws were on the books prohibiting homosexual behaviour.

God damn, Russia.

I fully support the boycott of the Winter Olympics there. And the World Cup there. And the World Cup in Qatar.

It's a shameful reflection of so called 'first world' countries or organisations, who love to pride themselves on the freedom they offer, when they freely negotiate contracts and events with countries who have disgusting stances on civil rights.

But hey, money talks...

Homosexuals don't have equal rights in America either. Should we boycott the next American Olympics too?

 

[Rage Racer]

...and how is this fair?

...but why?

Probably cultural causes. It's kinda long to explain...
But, besides, why can't they do without those gay prides? Why don't we need any "straight prides"?

Criminal record or not, an arrest is still an arrest.

It's never more than 15 days, and the arrested person is kept in a police detention center, not a jail/prison. I think half a month of such arrest is a quite fair action against a person who doesn't learn anything from being penalised several times.

 

[Danny]

But, besides, why can't they do without those gay prides? Why don't we need any "straight prides"?

You also don't have soup kitchens for rich people and hospitals for well people.

The more you discriminate, the more events like that are needed. If people were treated equally and fairly, there'd be no need for them.

It's never more than 15 days

The point is that it's still an arrest.

 

[Joel]

Probably cultural causes. It's kinda long to explain...
But, besides, why can't they do without those gay prides? Why don't we need any "straight prides"?

It's never more than 15 days, and the arrested person is kept in a police detention center, not a jail/prison. I think half a month of such arrest is a quite fair action against a person who doesn't learn anything from being penalised several times.

Because straight people aren't being sent to jail for speaking openly about their sexuality. Because people don't get ruthlessly beaten for being straight.

The only thing these people have to learn is that they live in a country of idiots. How on earth is locking someone up for free speech and their sexuality fair?

 

[Rage Racer]

It was only in the last 15 years as I understand it that it was removed from a list of Russian "mental disorders".

That's it. We are the post-Soviet society. Adult Russians who are 30+ years old have grown in the Soviet Union - the country that did not tolerate any homosexuality at all, and even used to put gay men to prison. You might say, these people still have communistic menatlity. I am 19 years old, and I was growing up in the '90s - the time when this country barely switched to capitalism. And with the fall of the Iron Curtain, we've faced the fact - some people are gay, and there's no need to persecute them for their sexuality. Now we are slowly becoming tolerant to it. I think, 10 or 15 more years and homosexuality will be completely tolerated there, like in the rest of the first world countries. People's mentality must change.
In other words: America has had 237 years of democracy, but Russia has only 22.

The only thing these people have to learn is that they live in a country of idiots. How on earth is locking someone up for free speech and their sexuality fair?

If a person keeps getting penalised, what's the reason of making it even worse?
And if the LGBT community does not get a permission for a gay pride (as it always happens), why do they still organize unauthorized meetings if they know they're going to be taken for a ride on police vans? Probably to attract attention with the hard way...

 

[Liquid]

Homosexuals don't have equal rights in America either. Should we boycott the next American Olympics too?

Which states punish homosexuality?

 

[FoolKiller]

I've told - they actually do not. But gay prides are still undesirable for most of us to see on streets.

Wait, is undesirable to see on the streets a legitimate reason to outlaw things? I have a long list here. Let's start with the Pontiac Aztec and work our way to fat people in revealing clothing.

I need to move to Russia. Apparently I don't need to legitimize my reasons for making stuff I don't like illegal.

It's different. Administrative arrest is given in Russia and some other countries (Ukraine, Belarus, etc.) for serious offenses when the circumstances make use of other penalties (such as fine) is not enough, but it doesn't make a criminal record.

So, less anal rape? So far I see a semantic difference here. I need something tangible.

Irony: Being "detained" for 15 days for the serious offense of publicly speaking up for gay rights, and having forced gay sex with a man called Bowling Ball Bag Bob.

America has had 237 years of democracy to sort out it's issues with gays

You say that like there was a pride parade on July 5, 1776. Lets try a more realistic number, like 30-40 years, since that is when first really became a public issue. Compared to African Americans, this is moving along quickly.

Don't forget that cultural changes require generations to eliminate the due hard, stubborn elements. In my lifetime they went from hiding to mostly being out and having many areas recognize equal rights. My cousin has permission to adopt now, in Kentucky. Getting marriage legalized is still an uphill battle, though.

discrimination is fairly common I would assume.

Define descrimination. We had a manager her admonished because she hired a full department of females, most of whom I am positive are lesbians. Half our out.

Homosexuals don't have equal rights in America either. Should we boycott the next American Olympics too?

It's not apples to apples. On average America is working in a positive direction.

Probably cultural causes. It's kinda long to explain...
But, besides, why can't they do without those gay prides? Why don't we need any "straight prides"?

When was the last time you were oppressed for being straight?

It's never more than 15 days, and the arrested person is kept in a police detention center, not a jail/prison. I think half a month of such arrest is a quite fair action against a person who doesn't learn anything from being penalised several times.

It's not a fair action if the law is unfair. Just because something is illegal does not mean it is wrong.

And careful, England put laws like this into effect against colonists that spoke out against the king. That didn't turn out so well for England.

 

[DK]

And again, nobody is going to be imprisoned. The worst of what this law provides is a 15-day administrative arrest, it's kinda different from imprisoning. But this arrest is a last resort, for those who repeat the offense several times.

Given how little of a damn the Russian police give about violent crimes committed against homosexuals, somehow I doubt a "15 day administrative arrest" is as light as you make it out to be.

 

[Joel]

If a person keeps getting penalised, what's the reason of making it even worse?
And if the LGBT community does not get a permission for a gay pride (as it always happens), why do they still organize unauthorized meetings if they know they're going to be taken for a ride on police vans? Probably to attract attention with the hard way...

So you're basically saying that they should just give up and stop trying to make things better because the cops will just beat them anyway, and then accusing them of being attention whores.

The problem here is you seem to be operating from an assumption that these laws are remotely just in the first place. Unjust laws should be changed, and unless you make noise nothing will happen.

 

[LeMansAid]

The more you discriminate, the more events like that are needed. If people were treated equally and fairly, there'd be no need for them.

I was thinking the same thing, but then I called to mind Sydney's annual Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. It is bigger than ever, while tolerance/acceptance/embracing of homosexuality is more pronounced than ever. Though, it has very much transformed from a demonstration in to a celebration.

Rage Racer, in all seriousness, most people live many lives within their life. Be aware that the beliefs you hold now, as much as it may be unfathomable right now, may not be your beliefs (or belief priorities) in several years' time. It can be very embarrassing to look back on the person one once was. It is however, heartbreaking to look back on how one hurt others in the time that once was.

 

[Dotini]

Unjust laws should be changed, and unless you make noise nothing will happen.

Easy to say from the safety of an armchair in an advanced, liberalized state. Making noise elsewhere in the world is likely to reduce you to a puddle of grease in the road.

For a number of years, the US has tried to impose our idea of justice on the rest of the world. For our trouble, we are both bankrupt and reviled.

So you are welcome to pick up your bull horn and visa card and and go make noise in Russia, China, Africa, Asia and anywhere else the native's ideas don't suit you.

 

[Danny]

Heat map shows where Homophobic tweets come from in the US.

I'm not sure what exactly to take away from this, I get mixed up between states. Is this result a surprise or expected?

Edit: I should issue an offensive language warning with this one.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Easy to say from the safety of an armchair in an advanced, liberalized state. Making noise elsewhere in the world is likely to reduce you to a puddle of grease in the road.

Which is why Russia is a censorridden dictatorship masqued in a democratic wardrobe. The people who find this stuff to be important to them do not work to change their country, they just leave and go to places which are far less corrupt.

There is a big difference in the church between accepting a sinner and promoting a sinful nature.

You guys are off on the whole bible bit anyway, fulfilling the law sure thus salvation. Also creating a separation between faith and works, you can clearly see that works reap reward while faith brings salvation. It's easy to understand, I promise

He mentioned gay marriage in the other posts that I was responding to. A church allowing such a thing would, in fact, be promoting something that is very clearly defined as a sin. It's easy to understand, I promise.

Heat map shows where Homophobic tweets come from in the US.

I'm not sure what exactly to take away from this, I get mixed up between states. Is this result a surprise or expected?

Freedom of speech is a protected first amendment right. You have a right to hate the person, a right to disagree with that person, and to say so. You do not have the right to arrest them, beat them, or censor them because you don't like it.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Heat map shows where Homophobic tweets come from.

I'm not sure what exactly to take away from this, I get mixed up between states. Is this result a surprise or expected?

From a Brit's view, it shows a distinct difference between the major population centres in the west and east. That's not surprising, as California is considered more liberal.

 

[Danny]

Freedom of speech is a protected first amendment right. You have a right to hate the person, a right to disagree with that person, and to say so. You do not have the right to arrest them, beat them, or censor them because you don't like it.

What? I'm not in favour of censoring anyone, I think it's an interesting article on locational demographic of said Tweets.

 

[Joel]

Easy to say from the safety of an armchair in an advanced, liberalized state. Making noise elsewhere in the world is likely to reduce you to a puddle of grease in the road.

Yes, and that's what I'm saying is unjust. I don't think the Russian LGBT community should just roll over and be quiet, advanced liberalized states don't materialize from nothing.

For a number of years, the US has tried to impose our idea of justice on the rest of the world. For our trouble, we are both bankrupt and reviled.

Yes, we can agree that military occupations and puppet dictators cause more harm than good.

So you are welcome to pick up your bull horn and visa card and and go make noise in Russia, China, Africa, Asia and anywhere else the native's ideas don't suit you.

This isn't really the same thing. It's not like I'm telling Israelis that they should totally start eating bacon because it's delciious. People are being killed, beaten, tortured, and imprisoned for being gay and public about it, that's beyond ideals and into a gross human rights violation.

As an aside, I get what you're saying about cultural relativism. It's a bit of a stretch to use that argument here though when the laws are so ridiculous and violent for what the "crime" is.

 

[arora]

He mentioned gay marriage in the other posts that I was responding to. A church allowing such a thing would, in fact, be promoting something that is very clearly defined as a sin. It's easy to understand, I promise.

Arguing the same point I tried to clarify? Anyway...

A church who panders to it's congregation or bows down to outside pressures, is one a tax exempt money grab in the name of God and two, weak sauce.

There is a reason I don't much care for organized religion.

 

[Rage Racer]

Wait, is undesirable to see on the streets a legitimate reason to outlaw things? I have a long list here. Let's start with the Pontiac Aztec and work our way to fat people in revealing clothing.

I've told already, it's a cultural problem for us. If the parliament just goes and allows gay prides in the center of Moscow, many people will be angry, I'm sure. Most of us are Orthodoxes, and the Orthodox Church does not tolerate homosexuality. And even many of those people who don't care about the Church's view, find public gay meetings disgusting. The "gay" word sound like an insult for most Russians. Seriously.
It's not my personal opinion, I'm talking about facts, what can happen if gay prides suddenly become allowed.
And there's nothing you can do (not so fast, at least). Some time is needed to stop these people from considering homosexuality as something very bad.

But remember, nobody is going to "arrest gay athletes at the Sochi Olympics". Don't pay attention at what Milonov says. He's a crazy, Orthodox fanatic, homophobic moron. This is he who needs to be cured, not homosexualists.
He also tried to ban teaching of Darwin's theory in schools.

 

[FoolKiller]

Heat map shows where Homophobic tweets come from in the US.

I'm not sure what exactly to take away from this, I get mixed up between states. Is this result a surprise or expected?

Edit: I should issue an offensive language warning with this one.

It's hard to tell. The heat map style is not accurate, low resolution, and colors over state boundary lines. Kentucky may be in the middle of bright red or light blue. I can't see the boundary lines and we have seven neighboring states. It's poorly designed.

From a Brit's view, it shows a distinct difference between the major population centres in the west and east. That's not surprising, as California is considered more liberal.

Those are also areas with higher rates of minority population. This could show one of many things. 1) More liberal thinking in some areas, 2) living with minorities changes your opinion of them, 3) living near minorities prevents people from outwardly voicing racial views, 4) This left out derogatory terms for straight, and/or white people or Jews and thus a large portion of hateful tweets are ignored. I bet the map looks very different if you count all forms of hateful tweets.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Which states punish homosexuality?

You mean legally or just in terms of individual or institutional bias? The point is not to equate Russian treatment of homosexuals to American treatment of homosexuals, but to emphasize that even in America, there are many places homosexuals cannot marry and are not afforded the same rights as married couples.

You say that like there was a pride parade on July 5, 1776. Lets try a more realistic number, like 30-40 years, since that is when first really became a public issue. Compared to African Americans, this is moving along quickly.

My point was, America has had nearly 2.5 centuries of "freedom" to figure out that homosexuals are no different than heterosexuals beyond who they choose to have sex with, and still, well, see above. Russians have had less than a quarter of a century of "freedom" and are still figuring out how to keep people working and food on everyone's table. Judging them in the same light as you would American progress is unfair. As a Canadian I look at American issues with homosexuality and shake my head at how backwards you all are compared to us in this regard, but I also realize we are a different culture here and things don't work down there the way they do here.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Shouldn't we add a few lol smileys along with the russian version of "freedom" to denote that it's radically different from USA "freedom?"

 

[Liquid]

You mean legally or just in terms of individual or institutional bias? The point is not to equate Russian treatment of homosexuals to American treatment of homosexuals, but to emphasize that even in America, there are many places homosexuals cannot marry and are not afforded the same rights as married couples.

Which is not quite the same as being punished for merely being a homosexual, as happens in Russia, Qatar and the seven countries which still punish homosexuality with a death sentence; Iran; Mauritania; Saudi Arabia; Sudan; United Arab Emirates; Yemen; Nigeria.

As FK noted, we're not dealing with apples and apples. I firmly stand behind a boycott/relocation of the Winter Olympics. And the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix; which is rubbish anyway.

The official position of Yemen is that there are no homosexuals in Yemen. I mean, come on...

 

[Dennisch]

I'll bet the boycot will not happen and most of the countries and athletes will just go and do their thing, like the sheep that they are.

 

[Liquid]

Sadly, I forsee the same thing.