The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[squadops]

I put the service out there simply as what I would consider a better alternative. The reason for that is because in the U.S., school whether it be public or private, the government has a say and the parent has no choice but to comply.

Does it surprise you that I homeschooled one of mine? not for that long mind you, basically of what we call 9th and 1/2 of 10th grade. I felt it necessary because I was not given another viable option. So I do know what the government requires in their program.

I still did not like it



BTW, does the like button mean you have to agree with the kat, or simply think it was a good post?

.....

Let me ask you something @Scaff, do you think that I have a right to not allow you to teach my child?

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't believe anyone was suggesting indoctrination, but rather discussion, debate and critical thinking around a specific topic.

Certainly from the perspective of how this is managed in the UK the approach taken is nearer to that , than of "you must think in this way and don't question it".

So anti-homosexual views and statements would be welcomed as a part of open discussion?

For some reason I just don't see it in our world full of SJWs with their safe spaces. There are things I know people would say here that might violate UK hate speech laws. If both sides aren't allowed to fully speak their minds then it is, by definition, indoctrination. Open dialogue is not truly allowed socially.

 

[squadops]

I have to say from my experience, it is far from necessary to force children to speak of all sorts of things. In some cases all that does is introduce a problem.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So anti-homosexual views and statements would be welcomed as a part of open discussion?

Of course. If those views weren't aired then it wouldn't be an open discussion. That doesn't mean it has to be a hate discussion.

 

[Scaff]

So anti-homosexual views and statements would be welcomed as a part of open discussion?

Yes, you need to understand behavior before you can discuss it.

For some reason I just don't see it in our world full of SJWs with their safe spaces. There are things I know people would say here that might violate UK hate speech laws.

Sorry, but no they wouldn't. GTP actually sets a lower bar in these terms than UK law (GTP's AUP states that "You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group.", while UK hate speech requires the speech to act as an incitement. Now while UK law did in the past simply require an 'insult', that was removed in 2012. Its not a perfectly well written law (I've never come across one that is) but its certainly not a lower bar than GTP's (in either its written form or in application).

If both sides aren't allowed to fully speak their minds then it is, by definition, indoctrination.

As long as any applicable laws are applied equally (for example in the case of UK hate speech laws) then its not indoctrination. However this does raise, for me, the question of how you would suggest dealing with indoctrination within the home/family? That for me carries significantly more risk of being indoctrination that any school based program.

Open dialogue is not truly allowed socially.

Does that mean we should not attempt to do so?

I have to say from my experience,

Which is of teaching how many people for how many years?

it is far from necessary to force children to speak of all sorts of things.

And this is backed up by what?

In some cases all that does is introduce a problem.

Which cases?

I put the service out there simply as what I would consider a better alternative. The reason for that is because in the U.S., school whether it be public or private, the government has a say and the parent has no choice but to comply.

Does it surprise you that I homeschooled one of mine? not for that long mind you, basically of what we call 9th and 1/2 of 10th grade. I felt it necessary because I was not given another viable option. So I do know what the government requires in their program.

I still did not like it

No. You know what your local area required at that point in time (and that assumes you interpreted it and the intention behind it 100% correctly). That doesn't then apply to all teaching, in every country at every point in time.

BTW, does the like button mean you have to agree with the kat, or simply think it was a good post?

Your choice. I have liked posts that have been a well formed point that I actually disagree with, however no 'guide' to its use exists on the site.

Let me ask you something @Scaff, do you think that I have a right to not allow you to teach my child?

Of course, as long as you are able to provide a suitable alternative to an equal or higher standard.

 

[squadops]

Asking questions before answering mine? tisk tisk

Oh, be careful what you ask for I suppose, now I have a bit of work cut out lol. I'll try to respond to all of it soon, it takes a little time so in the meantime I had prepared this loosely composed post, I'll edit it in here and then get back to the task at hand 👍

.................

I've thought a bit further about it and I came to the concussion that, because I am a rock musician I tend to relay my thoughts in a sort of lyrical form. Being as such there is always room for interpretation, there is a reason for that. I am an entertainer, not my main carrier but I am that.

Let me tell you, it has spilled into the industrial business world just fine, hence my successes. People like me because I am honest and I know how to get things done, but as far as the communication goes;

Why is it that the one's who seem to have the most trouble understanding me reside here?(gtp) It's a serious question. I don't speak in riddles here, I try to spur thought.

Since I have had to live in what I call the "real world" I become offended at teachers who imo, have lived a sheltered life inside a bubble. Government guarantees(as long as you follow government rules), your livelihood but I don't follow government rules, as @Famine has said, we are not interested in Government rules but rather human rights rules.(at least I think that was what he was saying).

I still owned my kids and the reason being, I protected their freedom, to the best of my ability, no hindrance or confusion there. Think please. I don't mind if you disagree mind you but I happen to be correct. As minors they cannot be held to contracts of any sort, that includes with the government, that is why.

Sorry if I angered anyone, let's keep playing the ball ffs.

 

[squadops]

Ok, it was a bit hurried but in a nutshell...


I have taught of course my children, I am not a credited educator but while I was in college, as part of my scholarship program I taught under privileged kids to play the cello.

I can back up my statement about talking too much about things based on raising my kids and also working in the counseling side of things, again I am not credited in that area but I do know a bit about psychology. I am also very involved with nieces and nephews as well as friends children.

Which cases? Well keeping it to this threads subject, there is not always a need to explain all the different sexualities to anyone, they figure it out all on there own. I will repeat, I'm not a bigot and I didn't need any training for that. None of the children or young adults now, I am involved with are either, we do sometimes talk about it very casually.

You are right that what I learned doesn't apply to all teaching, but I promise you, I know it all very well, you have to. They don't let any monkey teach their own which is funny because they seem to let any other monkey do it.

I was just pointing it out more than questioning it I guess, you are right about the like button. I don't like it's function if it turns into a clique war.

Thank you for that, I was able and I did provide a higher standard 👍

I added a few things, don't want you to miss them.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I have taught of course my children, I am not a credited educator but while I was in college, as part of my scholarship program I taught under privileged kids to play the cello.

And you think that makes you qualified to call yourself an educator?

 

[squadops]

Only of my kids 👍

And I've already stated that I used the education system here as a tool to educate them as well.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So why are you speaking as if you are speaking on behalf of all educators?

 

[squadops]

I am clearly speaking as a concerned parent and citizen, nothing more. I hired people like you to do what I wanted, not what you wanted.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

the work of a man like that is not something I would voluntarily teach my son, as that attitude is surely pervasive in his writing

At the risk of sounding crazy, how about you read the novel before you judge it?

I hired people like you to do what I wanted, not what you wanted.

Yeah, that's not the way the system works at all.

 

[squadops]

It does here. The United States is not a social democracy, we are a constitutional republic and we have rights, plenty of them, the rights you seem so willing to trample.

BTW, I tried to clean up my posts above a little bit.

 

[Scaff]

Ok, it was a bit hurried but in a nutshell...


I have taught of course my children, I am not a credited educator but while I was in college, as part of my scholarship program I taught under privileged kids to play the cello.

I can back up my statement about talking too much about things based on raising my kids and also working in the counseling side of things, again I am not credited in that area but I do know a bit about psychology. I am also very involved with nieces and nephews as well as friends children.

So if you are being honest its limited, particularly I would imagine in regard to teaching practice and application as it relates to efficacy. Teaching methodology has almost as much to with knowledge retention as the content delivered. One can know everything about a subject, but if you can't deliver that in an effective manner then its worthless.

Which cases? Well keeping it to this threads subject, there is not always a need to explain all the different sexualities to anyone, they figure it out all on there own. I will repeat, I'm not a bigot and I didn't need any training for that. None of the children or young adults now, I am involved with are either, we do sometimes talk about it very casually.

I've not said you're a bigot, I simply said I disagree with you. However the issue with your point here is that it would be all well and good if that was all that happened (in regard to sexuality alone - 'letting kids figure it out' is a good way of getting a lot of teenage parents), the problem is that it assumes no other voice is involved in their lives on this subject and that is simply never the case. Once again the issue of parental influence (which can be positive or negative) is being over looked.

You are right that what I learned doesn't apply to all teaching, but I promise you, I know it all very well, you have to. They don't let any monkey teach their own which is funny because they seem to let any other monkey do it.

Now aside from it being untrue (from my country) that anyone can teach, I seriously doubt that you 'know it all very well'. I've worked in education for almost two decades and outside of my core areas I would never make such a bold claim, nor do I know of any credible educator that would make such a claim.

Thank you for that, I was able and I did provide a higher standard 👍

By what measure?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The United States is not a social democracy, we are a constitutional republic and we have rights

If you want to exercise the right to misread my post, go ahead:

I hired people like you to do what I wanted, not what you wanted.

You don't have any actual power to hire individual teachers and set the curriculum. If you had that power, everyone would have to have that power, and nothing would get done because nobody would be in agreement.

 

[Scaff]

It does here. The United States is not a social democracy, we are a constitutional republic and we have rights, plenty of them, the rights you seem so willing to trample.

It's not about rights, its about knowing a subject and delivering it in an effective manner.

Every customer I have ever had that has worked in this manner (we will tell you how the training will be delivered and run - you can't tell us anything) has ended up with training that has either failed or been far, far less effective than it should be. People hire me for the expertise I bring to the subject of automotive and system training and how to deliver it in the most effective way, as they are aware that they don't always know exactly what they want and how it should be delivered.

If you (as a musician) were teaching someone to play and the parent insisted that you teach it in a way you knew would not work (as they don't even know how to play that instrument) do you honestly think it would work?

 

[squadops]

I'm being honest, and the best way I can explain that to you is you teach by example. I know this very well, do as I say not as I do? NO.

I know you never called me a bigot. Pretty much you could just see the directly above statement however I will add that kids tend to learn from their parents mistakes as well(in my experience). Parental influence is being overlooked, that is my point of most of this.

Oh oh, I meant I know very well what the government requires, anything that I felt unable to provide I sought out professional help. I thought that was a given.

By what measure? Many, I searched high and low to provide for my children, I used the public school system as well as the private school system, I also used secondary facilities. I've said it too many times...

I afforded my kids every opportunity that I could and I'm quite confidant that what I provided is above average ::

 

[squadops]

If you want to exercise the right to misread my post, go ahead:


You don't have any actual power to hire individual teachers and set the curriculum. If you had that power, everyone would have to have that power, and nothing would get done because nobody would be in agreement.

Yes I do.

I cannot disagree with that last post Scaff, nor did I ever have that intention per say. But at least in this thread, we are speaking of teaching a child how they should live. Big difference.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yes I do.

Let's say you had the power to choose which teacher taught your child in senior school. One of the texts that I teach is selected poetry by WH Auden. Auden was a gay liberal poet living in pre-war Europe and post-wat America. Would you enrol your child in my class?

 

[squadops]

Well, seeing as I actually did exactly what you claim I cannot do says something doesn't it?

And I would not have a problem with that curriculum at that age.

It all comes down to the 'special program' that you started with. I will never support that.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And I would not have a problem with that curriculum at that age.

Wrong answer. The correct answer is "what is the context of the content that you are teaching?". You made the assumption that Auden's sexuality and liberalism would be a key part of the curriculum.

 

[squadops]

No I didn't, I have no idea who your are on about and I don't really care. If, as part of an English, or writing class or whatever you are rambling on about included a gay poet, why would I care if my teenager reads it? I wouldn't and don't.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You care a lot about homosexuality being part of co-curricular support programmes, but you couldn't care less about it potentially being a part of actual curriculum? Does that sound remotely consistent to you?

 

[squadops]

Don't you see that you are the one making a big deal of it?

Consistent? I am against a particular program that lends specific aid to LGBT because I know that what that really means is telling all the other kids that are not what to think. In the world of people there are plenty of all sorts, there is a reason I posted that queen song that nick deleted.

Think for a second, I am a rocka rolla man, how many of my idols must surely be of that persuasion, it used to anger my mother when she would take a look at my album covers rofl

I don't think you are ever going to get it, that's ok though you try.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I am against a particular program that lends specific aid to LGBT because I know that what that really means is telling all the other kids that are not what to think.

Then by that logic, not lending specific aid to LGBTI kids also "really means" telling all the other kids that are not LGBTI what to think.

 

[squadops]

Are you sure of that? I'm saying there is no need to say anything. Did you read that Gary Johnson quote I posted in here? I will get it for you again in case you missed it. Because you claim I cannot communicate I will let him do it for me lol.

So David outside of gay and lesbian issues, first of all no one should get fired because they are gay or lesbian period. But when you set these laws up my experience with these laws are you create a protected class. And I speak as someone who started a one man handyman business in Albuquerque in 1974 and grew it to over a thousand employees... I’ll tell you because of our laws that we passed on safety issues that this whole notion of whistle blower legislation it sounds great but the reality is... employees that were horrible declared themselves to be whistle blowers in the safety category or they declared themselves an alcoholic because of legislation [feedback] the American for Disabilities Act... I want that person who breaks a window breaks a windshield with a rock prosecuted on the basis that they threw a rock through a windshield not because they were motivated by hate.

BTW what is the I all about, I didn't realize the term had changed?

Here, I will go back to what I said about my mother bless her soul, if she had never complained to me once that Randy Rhoads appeared to be gay, I never would have given it a second thought, that is food for you @Scaff.

To this day I do not know what his persuasion was, nor do I care, at all. To me he was a great guitarist.

Queen is a different story altogether and she absolutely hated the fact that I played them, maybe because I turned it up a bit lol.

 

[Scaff]

Are you sure of that? I'm saying there is no need to say anything. Did you read that Gary Johnson quote I posted in here? I will get it for you again in case you missed it. Because you claim I cannot communicate I will let him do it for me lol.

The issue I have with your position on this (and his) is the automatic assumption that this is being delivered as a "you will think this" process, and certainly from programs of a similar nature in the UK I can state that is not the case.

Why are you assuming that this must be the case, and why do you seem to opposed to even consider that it could be managed and delivered in a very different manner that is beneficial and constructive (and most importantly not indoctrination)?

Here, I will go back to what I said about my mother bless her soul, if she had never complained to me once that Randy Rhoads appeared to be gay, I never would have given it a second thought, that is food for you @Scaff.

To this day I do not know what his persuasion was, nor do I care, at all. To me he was a great guitarist.

Queen is a different story altogether and she absolutely hated the fact that I played them, maybe because I turned it up a bit lol.

Its not food for thought for me at all, its part of the very point I have made a number of times already, this is not a topic that children are left to explore by themselves, it very much is a topic that can be indoctrinated (in either way) within the home, and not everyone can and will deal with it in the manner you did. As such its simply not realistic to believe it will all be OK in the end and everyone will end up being just fine.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Warning tl;dr incoming

I've thought a bit further about it and I came to the concussion that, because I am a rock musician I tend to relay my thoughts in a sort of lyrical form. Being as such there is always room for interpretation, there is a reason for that. I am an entertainer, not my main carrier but I am that.

Let me tell you, it has spilled into the industrial business world just fine, hence my successes. People like me because I am honest and I know how to get things done, but as far as the communication goes;

Why is it that the one's who seem to have the most trouble understanding me reside here?(gtp) It's a serious question. I don't speak in riddles here, I try to spur thought.

Since I have had to live in what I call the "real world" I become offended at teachers who imo, have lived a sheltered life inside a bubble. Government guarantees(as long as you follow government rules), your livelihood but I don't follow government rules, as @Famine has said, we are not interested in Government rules but rather human rights rules.(at least I think that was what he was saying).

I still owned my kids and the reason being, I protected their freedom, to the best of my ability, no hindrance or confusion there. Think please. I don't mind if you disagree mind you but I happen to be correct. As minors they cannot be held to contracts of any sort, that includes with the government, that is why.

Sorry if I angered anyone, let's keep playing the ball ffs.

I'm not a rock musician (I wish!) but I think I understand where you're coming from. I've been self employed almost all of my adult life, as a teenager too I had my first business at age 11. I had a brief period of insanity, 4 years to be exact, but I was cured and happily self employed again. Many of my friends and acquaintences are self employed as well naturally and most of us detest bureaucracy, big government, etc. because we are all fast moving, fast responding problem solvers and they are most definitely not. When you spend your life being completely self reliant and carrying the load for your family completely on your own wits and skillset with no job guarantees at all, it often leads one to see the world a little differently. I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about.

My son is grown now and a productive member of society with a skilled trade he chose on his own at a college of his choosing, and paid for by himself. Of course I bought him things for school and financed a trip or two, bought groceries when I went to visit etc. like any good father would but it was his baby and he was proud of it. I, of course, was bursting with pride! I understand your mindset when it comes to teachers and other educators living in a bubble because that was how it seemed to me through most of his formative years. My son got suspended from public school twice when he was 8 or 9 for example, for playing a game that involved touching. Apparently you weren't allowed to touch other kids during recess in any way shape or form. I remember getting called in with my ex to the principals office (home sweet home), not knowing what was going on and being told Michael was being suspended for violating schoolyard rules of play. He was touching the other children. I felt like I had been punched in the gut, they were saying my child was a molestor or something. I turned to ask him why he was touching the other children, the teacher tried to interrupt me, I shut them down and he said, "We were playing tag Dad". 🤬 tag!!

To say I was incredulous would be an understatement. I thought it was a joke and I'm sure I came across that way. We left there and I dropped the ex off at home and after she got out of the car I stopped up the street and turned to my son and said, "we need to have a serious talk. That's the stupidest rule I've ever heard of and you just go right on playing tag and having fun at recess". High fives all around and lots of ice cream flowed that day!

He got suspended again a few weeks later and finally said to me, "look Dad I know it's a stupid rule but I don't want to keep getting suspended, they might fail me or something and I don't want to repeat a grade, so a bunch of us talked about it (some others were suspended too) and we can play tag or something after school instead". Mission accomplished.

Are you sure of that? I'm saying there is no need to say anything. Did you read that Gary Johnson quote I posted in here? I will get it for you again in case you missed it. Because you claim I cannot communicate I will let him do it for me lol.

BTW what is the I all about, I didn't realize the term had changed?

Here, I will go back to what I said about my mother bless her soul, if she had never complained to me once that Randy Rhoads appeared to be gay, I never would have given it a second thought, that is food for you @Scaff.

To this day I do not know what his persuasion was, nor do I care, at all. To me he was a great guitarist.

Queen is a different story altogether and she absolutely hated the fact that I played them, maybe because I turned it up a bit lol.

Again, I understand this mindset of, "there is no need to say anything". In my own case, since it's the topic at hand, I've never had a conversation with my son about anything to do with LGBTQIF9.6 or whatever the acronym is these days. I figured early on that so long as I didn't alienate him somehow, he was likely going to follow my example in terms of actions, no matter what I said or talked to him about. What you do says who you are basically and your children are watching that and taking it in whether you realize it or not. He's met and hung out friends of mine that were male and female homosexuals. One of my ex's best friends, who happened to be gay, came to live with us for a year or so when he first came to Canada. My example to him was how I interacted with them and others and I knew he'd mostly likely follow in the same path.

I've also never had a conversation with him about race. He's observed how I live my life and who I associate with, who I dated, who he meets through me etc. and that's the example he's going to follow even if I tell him something that opposes that in an effort to "teach him" something. He has no choice but to deal with race issues at school anyway and I watched who his friends were and who he hung out with and I knew he'd be fine even when he was in daycare.

 

[FoolKiller]

Yes, you need to understand behavior before you can discuss it.

Yet, that side of public discourse is constantly shouted down in the US. Opposing views are asked to leave. Politicians speaking unpopular views are violently protested. Let someone like Ann Coulter speak at a university and she gets protested and shut down.

In this environment I am supposed to believe that anti-homosexual views will be legitimately heard and listened to by the same students that go to these protests?

As someone who was in a minority studies course in college, I was told that as a white male I am the white devil and I received a C because I didn't change my mind to the correct view on affirmative action. Fortunately, the final grade was pass/fail. So, from experience in a school environment discussion course, I don't see it as open and welcome.

Sorry, but no they wouldn't. GTP actually sets a lower bar in these terms than UK law

I meant the US (or more specifically Kentucky). Sorry I didn't make that clear. I meant someone in a discussion of that nature in the US would say things that would violate the hate speech laws found in other countries. That violates no laws in the US. It would have to be tolerated in order to be an open discussion.

However this does raise, for me, the question of how you would suggest dealing with indoctrination within the home/family? That for me carries significantly more risk of being indoctrination that any school based program.

Parenting is indoctrination. No way around it. No matter how open-minded you raise your child to be you are still placing your morality on them. I won't tolerate my daughter making a racist comment. I'm indoctrinating her, but in a way most would agree with. I'm indoctrinating her to believe drugs are bad, we should have an open-mind, to always question something you don't agree with, and that hard work and making your own way in this world are great virtues.

Does that mean we should not attempt to do so?

Sure we can, but it can't mean the end goal is one viewpoint. The discussion shouldn't be addressing one point of view as needing to be addressed and changed while the other is treated as the correct view.


And all of this ignores my original point. What you create while your opinion is the majority can be turned or even twisted the moment opinion swings a different way. No matter how honestly open you make it, it is one decision away from becoming something else.

 

[Scaff]

Yet, that side of public discourse is constantly shouted down in the US. Opposing views are asked to leave. Politicians speaking unpopular views are violently protested. Let someone like Ann Coulter speak at a university and she gets protested and shut down.

In this environment I am supposed to believe that anti-homosexual views will be legitimately heard and listened to by the same students that go to these protests?

As someone who was in a minority studies course in college, I was told that as a white male I am the white devil and I received a C because I didn't change my mind to the correct view on affirmative action. Fortunately, the final grade was pass/fail. So, from experience in a school environment discussion course, I don't see it as open and welcome.

All of which I would be totally opposed to, however that doesn't mean that is what happens in every situation or every program around. Indeed if such a program is to be even remotely defective then it simply can't operate in that way.

I meant the US (or more specifically Kentucky). Sorry I didn't make that clear. I meant someone in a discussion of that nature in the US would say things that would violate the hate speech laws found in other countries. That violates no laws in the US. It would have to be tolerated in order to be an open discussion.

I quite agree that it must be tolerated to make it an open discussion, blunt censorship is counterproductive to this and I still think Hall said it best "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

Parenting is indoctrination. No way around it. No matter how open-minded you raise your child to be you are still placing your morality on them. I won't tolerate my daughter making a racist comment. I'm indoctrinating her, but in a way most would agree with. I'm indoctrinating her to believe drugs are bad, we should have an open-mind, to always question something you don't agree with, and that hard work and making your own way in this world are great virtues.

I would disagree, with the caveat of how you define indoctrination; its most common usage is that of a subject being taught with no allowance for any discussion, debate or analysis of the 'why'. That certainly doesn't sound like an approach you would take.

Sure we can, but it can't mean the end goal is one viewpoint. The discussion shouldn't be addressing one point of view as needing to be addressed and changed while the other is treated as the correct view.


And all of this ignores my original point. What you create while your opinion is the majority can be turned or even twisted the moment opinion swings a different way. No matter how honestly open you make it, it is one decision away from becoming something else.

Indeed it is, but that means it must be treated with care, caution and respect; making it difficult but not an impossibility.