The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Denur]

As someone who was in a minority studies course in college, I was told that as a white male I am the white devil and I received a C because I didn't change my mind to the correct view on affirmative action.

I'm all for minority studies, but to get graded on a view is a horrible thing. Getting graded on a course like this, should not go beyond being tested on knowledge regarding things like emancipation history, minority demographics throughout the world, etc.

 

[squadops]

@Scaff, you're last replies to me...

It might not be the case as you say, but it's my right to refuse it and I did. In fact where I come from you guys need permission to teach such things, I actually agreed to it on a permission slip once and my kid upon looking at the slip "oh common dad, I wanted you to say no" I had to drive to the school and get another contract so the kid could skip it.

I don't doubt your intentions, I question their validity.

Not food for thought for you? Really? We learn from our parents by example, we are sponges as kids. I have thought about it for some time, my situation as a child. To the best of my ability I can only figure my mother is not against lgbt but rather simply wanted grand kids. Which I delivered.

I don't think I need to say anymore, if you want to have the last word, and it does not seem offensive to me, then I'm going to drop this convo. We've both had our say, I respect your ideals, I respect my reality a bit more.

 

[TenEightyOne]

not against lgbt but rather simply wanted grand kids. Which I delivered.

Which you could have done if you were gay, of course.

 

[squadops]

My mother loves me so much I could be a green man on the moon. You will never find someone in your life as accepting and caring as mom imo.

They are the best.

 

[Carbonox]

but rather simply wanted grand kids. Which I delivered.

I can't be the only one who sees this as pretty narcissistic?

Also this...

My mother loves me so much I could be a green man on the moon. You will never find someone in your life as accepting and caring as mom imo.

They are the best.

...sadly doesn't appeal to everyone... just ask those that have been disowned for their sexuality, or lifestyle choices.

 

[squadops]

I am the one who is a narcissist not her.

I don't know anyone who has been disowned for that, I do know some who have been disowned for having addiction problems which is very sad, good thing I don't disown them as my friends.

 

[Denur]

My mother loves me so much I could be a green man on the moon. You will never find someone in your life as accepting and caring as mom imo.

They are the best.

In what context did you write this?

 

[squadops]

In the context that she would love me all the same no matter who I was or of what sexual orientation. In response to a post, if I didn't have kids she would have been fine with that.

 

[Denur]

In the context that she would love me all the same no matter who I was or of what sexual orientation. In response to a post, if I didn't have kids she would have been fine with that.

I think @TenEightyOne 's comment was from a "technical" point of view, that gay men are still able to produce offspring.

 

[FoRiZon]

My mother loves me so much I could be a green man on the moon. You will never find someone in your life as accepting and caring as mom imo.

They are the best.

In the context that she would love me all the same no matter who I was or of what sexual orientation. In response to a post, if I didn't have kids she would have been fine with that.

Sadly, not everyone can give the same caring as your mom given or as lucky as you are.

Abusive parents exist.

 

[squadops]

I think @TenEightyOne 's comment was from a "technical" point of view, that gay men are still able to produce offspring.

Well, that would have been fine too.

I thought he was being sarcastic, my bad

I am well aware of that FrzGT, but seeing as mine was not, and I was not, I see no need for the likes of Prisonermonkey or Scaff to dictate what I do with my children. That is how all this started, I'm trying to bow out with some grace you guys.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well, that would have been fine too.

I thought he was being sarcastic, my bad

I am well aware of that FrzGT, but seeing as mine was not, and I was not, I see no need for the likes of Prisonermonkey or Scaff to dictate what I do with my children. That is how all this started, I'm trying to bow out with some grace you guys.

I'd suggest not posting then, because if you continue your posts will continue to be micro analyzed for every little micro aggression and potentially non-politically correct answer.

 

[squadops]

I know, it isn't unique to gtp.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I see no need for the likes of Prisonermonkey or Scaff to dictate what I do with my children.

You stated that your children were your property. In my own opinion that's an abhorrent view.

 

[FoolKiller]

All of which I would be totally opposed to, however that doesn't mean that is what happens in every situation or every program around. Indeed if such a program is to be even remotely defective then it simply can't operate in that way.

And that goes back to my original point. Your honest and good idea will be controlled by others in the future. You must be willing to accept that it might twisted into something else one day.

I would disagree, with the caveat of how you define indoctrination; its most common usage is that of a subject being taught with no allowance for any discussion, debate or analysis of the 'why'. That certainly doesn't sound like an approach you would take.

Taking the Merriam Webster definition:

1. to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach
   
   
2. 2: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle

I'd say #2 applies. I will not accept my daughter being prejudiced and unjustly discriminatory. Debating of the why would not be much deeper than the conversations I had with my bigoted father.

Yes, I have experience with indoctrination in the way you view it. My experience from where I grew up to where I am in my life tells me that much more is involved in how people grow up to see the world than just what is taught at home or school. I haven't lived in my hometown since I first went to college for a reason.

Your good ideas in that town would achieve the opposite of your intent.

Indeed it is, but that means it must be treated with care, caution and respect; making it difficult but not an impossibility.

This is where I point out how I avoided the mentality that surrounded me during my childhood.

I wasn't content and happy in a small town, so I begged to go do every summer program I could. I did everything from Boy Scout Camp and YMCA swim camp to Space Camp and computer camp. I learned everything from how to start a fire with sticks to how to operate a scientific experiment in space. I even did a summer camp in Washington DC, learning how government works. I was constantly exposed to other things. I experienced life outside that one-light town.

See, I didn't outgrow my upbringing by being forced to do it in schools. I outgrew it because I was open to that. A lot of people I grew up with never did more than what was offered in that town. Nowadays I hear stories about how the Indians are buying up all the businesses.

These are good people who had no thought of being more than what they were brought up in. They aren't bad people. They just want to be left alone to be who they are and they would never allow someone to come in and attempt to make them think differently. It would fail miserably, and possibly have an opposite effect.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I wasn't content and happy in a small town, so I begged to go do every summer program I could. I did everything from Boy Scout Camp and YMCA swim camp to Space Camp and computer camp. I learned everything from how to start a fire with sticks to how to operate a scientific experiment in space. I even did a summer camp in Washington DC, learning how government works. I was constantly exposed to other things. I experienced life outside that one-light town.

Teaching is about creating choices. It seems that you were the rare student who created their own. The norm is that the zone of proximal development (Vygotsky's idea, not mine) is a framework for attainment and, thereon, choice. Let them see all there is and choose all they want.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Teaching is about creating choices.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Everyone makes hundreds of choices every day, and teaching doesn't change the fact that our lives revolve around choice. What education does is equip one to choose the 'right' option. Naturally that can quickly degenerate into telling children what choices to make in a certain situation, when in fact it should be that children (and adults) are thought to think clearly, rationally, and critically, so that they can each analyse a situation and make a choice based on any number of relevant factors.

Fundamentally, education is about empowering people to improve their own lives. You can't just tell someone to think, you have to teach them how to think in a normal and rational way. Sadly, it's very easy to do the opposite.

 

[squadops]

The 'right' choice is not the same for everyone however.

 

[TenEightyOne]

What education does is equip one to choose the 'right' option. Naturally that can quickly degenerate into telling children what choices to make in a certain situation, when in fact it should be that children (and adults) are thought to think clearly, rationally, and critically, so that they can each analyse a situation and make a choice based on any number of relevant factors.

So... it is about choices then?

 

[Dotini]

Perhaps the right choice is for 60% of the world population to commit suicide, or attack a cop and have it done for them. There is your teachable moment.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Perhaps the right choice is for 60% of the world population to commit suicide, or attack a cop and have it done for them. There is your teachable moment.

Well that's for any number of other O&CE threads

 

[Dotini]

Well that's for any number of other O&CE threads

Speaking as a former law enforcement officer and later drug rehab councillor (60's and 70's era), I recall that homosexuality and especially transvestism is was an early ticket to the jail and the grave.

 

[niky]

That's a very difficult call to make.

Certainly in the past, when discrimination was more aggressive and people felt the need to hide their sexuality, the psychological stresses were higher and could aggravate any social issues and/or problems.

Nowadays, when it's a bit easier to be "normal" about it... or to at least find places where you are surrounded by like-minded people, those issues should be less... though some statistics point to LGBT youth being much more likely to contemplate and even attempt suicide due to social stresses than "normal" youth.

-

I doubt we could ever attain a perfectly egalitarian society, but until we achieve a reasonable approximation of one, it's difficult to say whether these problems are inherent or have social causes. Recent studies point to social stress being the over-riding factor, however, and note that reported suicide attempts are not often a good indicator of actual serious suicide attempts. But psychology is an inherently slippery science.

 

[squadops]

You stated that your children were your property. In my own opinion that's an abhorrent view.

You cannot have responsibility without authority, the word you might like a bit more is custodian. The fact that I was held accountable for their actions(and well being) surely means I have the absolute say until they reached the legal age of adulthood. That is when the state recognizes them with all their god given rights. It's simply how it is.

Perhaps @niky if kids were not forced into schools like cattle we'd see a bit less of that social stress you speak of.

 

[niky]

You cannot have responsibility without authority, the word you might like a bit more is custodian. The fact that I was held accountable for their actions(and well being) surely means I have the absolute say until they reached the legal age of adulthood. That is when the state recognizes them with all their god given rights. It's simply how it is.

Perhaps @niky if kids were not forced into schools like cattle we'd see a bit less of that social stress you speak of.

This depends on what kind of schooling and what the aims of schooling are.

The problem with the modern concept of education is that it is becoming increasingly nothing more than a means of instilling pre-employment skills.

The overzealous focus on academics and on forcing children to think and to perform within a mold (as @FoolKiller has complained about in his criticism of the Common Core system...) causes enormous stress for students, and suicide rates in countries where there is a push for excellence are alarming.

This is all tied into the competitive jobs market, where companies demand "products" that are intelligent and hardworking. Never mind if they're burned-out and half-dead by the time they finish thirteen years of basic schooling and an additional five to eight years of higher education.

A focus for forward-looking educators is a return to a more rounded education. Education which teaches people to think, as has been said here, rather than what to think. Unfortunately, the obsessive focus on concrete performance objectives (which, admittedly, makes it easier to assess educational outcomes) encourages (lazy) teachers to simply focus on mechanical skills development rather than a deeper understanding, to the detriment of the students. Actual talent, insight and even intelligence can be punished under such a system.

-

Stronger values education is part of a progressive system, but the rest has to follow. I can understand the frustrations of some with the system, but imperfect as it is, it's better than nothing, and is part of the overhaul the system so badly needs.

 

[squadops]

I guess as a parent I think to myself, 'if they aren't capable of doing what they were designed to do, why should I trust them with even more responsibility.

I think it is worth noting that I have learned a good deal about the subject from my grandfather who was born in 1911, he started out as a school teacher in NY, in time he became a principal and later on moved into admin until one day he ran a school district of decent size. That was a very different time of course and I never brought it up because claiming to be an expert is a silly thing, he did teach me quite a bit however, he was a great man.

Back then no one would ever have thought to police the mind, in any fashion, I like what you said about "Actual talent, insight and even intelligence can be punished under such a system."

I think that was much less the case when he was in charge

.......

I'm also under the impression that the school system has been something like a government entity here, in other words they create a problem simply to solve it, that gives them job security.

All of this coming from a simple humble parent of concern. 👍

 

[Beeblebrox237]

So... it is about choices then?

It's all about choices, but it has nothing to do with creating them. Education doesn't create choices, life does.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's all about choices, but it has nothing to do with creating them. Education doesn't create choices, life does.

As already noted, a child spends much of their life in school. Choices are based on information as much as they're based on suddenly arriving at a fork in the road.

 

[squadops]

Children should not be forced to spend much of their life in school. I happen to know for a fact that they will make choices school or not, as the other kat says, he wants them to have a bit of information to better their choice.

 

[niky]

Children should not be forced to spend much of their life in school. I happen to know for a fact that they will make choices school or not, as the other kat says, he wants them to have a bit of information to better their choice.

Unfortunately, the alternative is for parents to take over their education.

Properly home-schooling a child in preparation for college is a full-time job. Not something you can do in a society where both parents have to work to simply stay afloat (the USA). It's something we could have considered, my wife and I both being trained educators, but we valued the social interactions and life skills development enough to put our children out into the jungle.

A school is a cost-effective way to teach a large number of children necessary life-skills, with the bonus of said social interactions and life skills development. Not to the point of impersonal "mass production", as in the talks about "The Wall"... but sadly, budgetary restraints for public school systems in many countries means the optimal student-teacher ratio is not always followed, and teacher training and orientation is not always the best.

Still, children, in general, benefit from being in any kind of school. The only problem is simply in what kind of schooling you can afford. And beyond that... parents still need to get involved in the learning process. This is why Asian-Americans do well in College placement, because our culture still values the "village" philosophy of child rearing, and there is parental and often even grand-parental support for children going through school.

That kind of support, outside of the school environment, would do a lot to help the mental health of LGBT youth. The problem being that they can't often rely on that support, not while the many of the older generation still view any kind of non-heterosexuality as an aberration.