The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[LeMansAid]

Actually @Bo, I would say that.....

I have dated white black and oriental women dislike nascar dislike all politicians and don't agree with a lot of things other people might agree with does this make me a bigot?

.... is absolutely bigoted, unless @justin credible has happened to meet every single politician in the world to form an opinion on each of them. Just because no-one generally gives a hoot when people make sweeping statements about politicians, doesn't mean they're not equal to sweeping statements made about those that people do tend to give a hoot about.

We should uphold the general principle over the specific subject of the application of the principle. Sometimes that will mean seemingly defending people that we're not used to wanting or needing to defend.

 

[Bo]

In my skim-reading I hadn't picked up on that line, apologies.

 

[justin credible]

Actually @Bo, I would say that.....

.... is absolutely bigoted, unless @justin credible has happened to meet every single politician in the world to form an opinion on each of them. Just because no-one generally gives a hoot when people make sweeping statements about politicians, doesn't mean they're not equal to sweeping statements made about those that people do tend to give a hoot about.

We should uphold the general principle over the specific subject of the application of the principle. Sometimes that will mean seemingly defending people that we're not used to wanting or needing to defend.

When it comes to politicians I have never met one in over 50 years who do what they say or can carry out a promise so Yes I accept being a huge bigot when it comes to politicians I think they are all a bunch of money grabbing parasites who are only in politics to line their own pockets. Guilty as charged your honour I am a bigot on politicians.
Main thing is do I care? Not a jot I sleep well every night and don't give a monkeys. EU debates politicians doing whatever I have no interest in them anymore as for 50+ years no matter who has been running the area or the country which ever party it has made no difference to me. Under all of them I pay far to much tax as they waste the majority of what they take in and the NHS has slowly gone from bad to worse nothing changes for the better with politicians. Don't get me started on how bad the police force has become due to politicians cutting the finances.
Why is all that cash taken in by the government not put into professional accountants hands to dish out fairly and not wasted on a lot of the rubbish it is wasted on.
I try not to think about politics as it brings up the hairs on the back of my neck in rage so going to sign off here.

 

[LeMansAid]

I try not to think about politics as it brings up the hairs on the back of my neck in rage so going to sign off here.

I try not to go off on unrelated maniacal rants about politics in The Homosexuality Discussion Thread. I'm just weird like that.

Would you have a problem with someone stating that they dislike all homosexuals, based on having only met homosexuals that they disliked?

 

[justin credible]

To be honest I couldn't care I live my life I have my opinions some agree with them some don't that's life.
If asked my opinion I say it other wise I just get on with being me.
And for maniacal rants unrelated to the thread be serious and stop being pedantic every one on every forum in the land has gone of subject now and again and if they haven't they have only made one or two posts or there weird.
Just my opinion doesn't need dissecting and answering in a Freud way many thanks.

 

[Bo]

To be honest I couldn't care I live my life I have my opinions some agree with them some don't that's life.

For someone who "doesn't care", you do seem to like replying to the thread.

Just my opinion doesn't need dissecting and answering in a Freud way many thanks.

It is a discussion forum in all fairness - if you say something, at least be prepared to continue the conversation or justify it in some way. I still don't get the "it's just my opinion" line either - I don't think anyone's disputed that at any point in the thread.

 

[TenEightyOne]

To be honest I couldn't care I live my life I have my opinions some agree with them some don't that's life.

Welcome to the opinions forum, I guess you'll be familiar with the idea of it then

Just my opinion doesn't need dissecting and answering in a Freud way many thanks.

Clement Freud? My gosh.

 

[stonesfan129]

Why do we need a thread on this? Who cares, let people live their lives and be happy.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So is a homosexual considered a bigot if they are not accepting of a Christian who believes that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle? I don't think that's bigotry. I think that is just having a different opinion.

No, they're not a bigot if they're not accepting of a Christian who thinks their homosexuality is a sin, you're quite right. Of course, non-acceptance isn't equivalent to intolerance.

Just making a point here though that bigotry can go both ways.

Only two?

 

[A2K78]

@Bo

When an individual express a preference what they are doing is technically engaging in discrimination. That said by expressing my preference for black women of my nationality I'm discriminating against women of other races/nationalities and in that case there is no wrong in accordance with my right to free association.

BTW should really check out the awesome Walter E Williams

https://www.lewrockwell.com/author/walter-e-williams/

 

[LeMansAid]

Why do we need a thread on this? Who cares, let people live their lives and be happy.

The first sentence is probably a silly enough comment, in light of the apparent disingenuous ruse present in the second, for me to quote a completely random former member, for no particular reason at all.

I'm not trying to get banned.

 

[A2K78]

In other news the government again undermine free association and private property

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/...-sex-matches-discrimination-lawsuit/21423799/

In a true free society and one where government respects both freedom of association and private property Christian Mingle would have right to deny services to whatever groups or individuals they want.

 

[justin credible]

The first sentence is probably a silly enough comment, in light of the apparent disingenuous ruse present in the second, for me to quote a completely random former member, for no particular reason at all.

What school did you go to LeMansAid? I love your way with words even if I don't understand half of them it still looks very intellectual, Unfortunately something I am not

 

[LeMansAid]

What school did you go to LeMansAid? I love your way with words even if I don't understand half of them it still looks very intellectual, Unfortunately something I am not

Ha, fittingly it's all just a ruse. I am actually supremely uneducated, and have not even read a book, my entire life. It's pretty much my android-like self trying to approximate how an educated human might express themselves. Mixed results, but I have a crack.

Very, very off topic though. Sorry people.

 

[justin credible]

LeMansAid the dude uses his tongue better than a $50 dollar whore.

c/o Blazing Saddles.

I too will try and stay on topic from now I will post in different thread

 

[stonesfan129]

@Bo

When an individual express a preference what they are doing is technically engaging in discrimination. That said by expressing my preference for black women of my nationality I'm discriminating against women of other races/nationalities and in that case there is no wrong in accordance with my right to free association.

BTW should really check out the awesome Walter E Williams

https://www.lewrockwell.com/author/walter-e-williams/

I agree. Free religious exercise and free speech shouldn't be stifled simply because it hurts somebody's feelings.

 

[Bo]

I agree. Free religious exercise and free speech shouldn't be stifled simply because it hurts somebody's feelings.

So you believe that some members of society have the right to belittle others, demean or offend them, as long as they use their religion as an excuse? That's not how a civilised society should operate. Where do you draw the line? If someone says "all gay people should die - oh, but that's what my religion says, so I'm allowed to echo the sentiment", isn't that along the same lines as "black people should die", "all women should die" or any similarly extreme points of view? Where do you draw a line between acceptably offensive and unacceptably offensive?

 

[stonesfan129]

So you believe that some members of society have the right to belittle others, demean or offend them, as long as they use their religion as an excuse? That's not how a civilised society should operate.

How is that any different from people belittling Christians - and suing them out of their home and livelihood - because of their religious beliefs?

Where do you draw the line? If someone says "all gay people should die - oh, but that's what my religion says, so I'm allowed to echo the sentiment", isn't that along the same lines as "black people should die", "all women should die" or any similarly extreme points of view? Where do you draw a line between acceptably offensive and unacceptably offensive?

Is this a serious question? Violent threats =/= free speech.

 

[Bo]

Is this a serious question? Violent threats =/= free speech.

They're not examples of threats, they're beliefs - albeit very extreme, xenophobic and offensive ones. There's no statement of intent in them.

You made a blanket statement about "free religious exercise" being allowed even if it "hurts somebody's feelings" - I took an extreme example because going by your statement, as long as you can justify your belief with your religion, insulting or offending people doesn't matter.

How is that any different from people belittling Christians - and suing them out of their home and livelihood - because of their religious beliefs?

You're obviously referring to specific cases I may/may not already be aware of, but if someone is denied a service because of their sexual orientation, the person/people denying them that service have every right to be sued. Religion is a choice, someone's sexuality is not. Personal lifestyle decisions or personal beliefs should never be a free pass to offend, insult or discriminate.

 

[Joey D]

You're obviously referring to specific cases I may/may not already be aware of, but if someone is denied a service because of their sexual orientation, the person/people denying them that service have every right to be sued. Religion is a choice, someone's sexuality is not. Personal lifestyle decisions or personal beliefs should never be a free pass to offend, insult or discriminate.

If it's a private business denying someone service then why should they be sued? If it's a public entity that is funded through taxes then yes, denying a tax paying citizen would be grounds for a suit, but someone who owns a private business should be allowed to do what they like. They would however need to deal with the backlash the public and media would undoubtedly bring on them, so it's probably not the best of ideas from a business standpoint to deny service to a paying customer.

I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but in America it's totally legal to be an ass to someone, you just need to accept the consequences if the public views your beliefs as being an ass.

If we are talking about a government service, like say the issuing of a license, attending a public school, etc. then if there's discrimination there's an issue.

 

[Exorcet]

You're obviously referring to specific cases I may/may not already be aware of, but if someone is denied a service because of their sexual orientation, the person/people denying them that service have every right to be sued.

What makes it necessary to provide your service to another person though?

Religion is a choice, someone's sexuality is not. Personal lifestyle decisions or personal beliefs should never be a free pass to offend, insult or discriminate.

Why not? If your personal lifestyle/belief is to preserve nature, wouldn't you want to discriminate against businesses/entities that don't care about environmental conservation? And why is choice important? Intelligence isn't a choice, but some schools and businesses are definitely going to want to discriminate based on that.

 

[Bo]

I'm not referring to any specific incidents, I vaguely recall something along those lines but I don't follow US news stories on the most part.

I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but in America it's totally legal to be an ass to someone, you just need to accept the consequences if the public views your beliefs as being an ass.

If we are talking about a government service, like say the issuing of a license, attending a public school, etc. then if there's discrimination there's an issue.

The latter is a given, but I do believe those who discriminate and refuse private services to people based on the likes of their ethnicity, gender or sexuality shouldn't just be forced to face a public backlash. I know it's an awkward issue with a lot of pitfalls, and it's definitely a case-by-case thing, but I feel such discrimination goes a little beyond "being an ass" - I can see why people would believe otherwise but it's just my personal feeling.

What makes it necessary to provide your service to another person though?

If a private business opens a store that's completely open to the public, the only grounds on which a person should be refused the service is if they commit a criminal offence within the store or pose a safety threat. Anything like ethnicity, sexuality or gender should never be grounds to deny a service - if the shopkeeper is a devout Christian, his religious beliefs shouldn't dictate those who can and can't gain access to the service.

And why is choice important? Intelligence isn't a choice, but some schools and businesses are definitely going to want to discriminate based on that.

I'm firmly against schools that aren't fully inclusive and don't cater to the needs of all their students regardless of their intelligence, but in the case of jobs, it could just be a case of who fits the bill best based on facts presented to the employers - that's not quite discrimination, it's just how business works.

I know I have a firm stance on discrimination of all types (probably unusually so), but I can see the reasoning on the other side of the argument.

 

[Famine]

If a private business opens a store that's completely open to the public, the only grounds on which a person should be refused the service is if they commit a criminal offence within the store or pose a safety threat. Anything like ethnicity, sexuality or gender should never be grounds to deny a service - if the shopkeeper is a devout Christian, his religious beliefs shouldn't dictate those who can and can't gain access to the service.

I go to a Muslim bakery for a cake. I decide that the design I want is a picture of the Prophet and the words "Mo the Nonce" in Arabic beneath.

Should his religious beliefs allow him to refuse my custom simply because he is a shopkeeper?


No-one is required to provide you - or anyone - with any service, and ought to be able to refuse anyone for any reason.

 

[FoRiZon]

My thought is that if it works with cash, a business owner cannot refuse service only if the service has been paid and agreed upon with the customer. That also meant that said owner can refuse payment if they didn't agreed with said customer.

 

[stonesfan129]

My thought is that if it works with cash, a business owner cannot refuse service only if the service has been paid and agreed upon with the customer. That also meant that said owner can refuse payment if they didn't agreed with said customer.

What if the business owner is willing to refund them?

 

[FoRiZon]

What if the business owner is willing to refund them?

What if the customer didnt want to.

Customer is first priority, period.

Sudden changing policy like that can make the Business owner sued and in the end its the owner fault for not setting clearer policy.

 

[stonesfan129]

What if the customer didnt want to.

Customer is first priority, period.

Sudden changing policy like that can make the Business owner sued and in the end its the owner fault for not setting clearer policy.

If such a case went to court, and the business owner offered to refund the customer's payment, I would expect a court to side with the business owner.

 

[ryzno]

If such a case went to court, and the business owner offered to refund the customer's payment, I would expect a court to side with the business owner.

Look at Indiana, the bakery still had to make the cake for a homosexual couple. Thank Obama for business owners rights being thrown out the window.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Look at Indiana, the bakery still had to make the cake for a homosexual couple. Thank Obama for business owners rights being thrown out the window.

Which was correct, since the shop owners aren't able to prove if it offends their religion or not.

I go to a Muslim bakery for a cake. I decide that the design I want is a picture of the Prophet and the words "Mo the Nonce" in Arabic beneath.

I agree with your sentiment but disagree with the comparison.
A cake for a non-religious homosexual wedding doesn't directly offend the religion of the shopkeeper.
If someone would go into a bakery run by an atheist and order that cake, I'd expect the baker to ban him immediately.
Also, I'm sure there are less muslims who would freak out because of a "gay wedding cake" than christians, especially in the USA.

 

[prousonhairy]

Which was correct, since the shop owners aren't able to prove if it offends their religion or not.


I agree with your sentiment but disagree with the comparison.
A cake for a non-religious homosexual wedding doesn't directly offend the religion of the shopkeeper.
If someone would go into a bakery run by an atheist and order that cake, I'd expect the baker to ban him immediately.
Also, I'm sure there are less muslims who would freak out because of a "gay wedding cake" than christians, especially in the USA.

i don't know, I thought it was pretty much a death sentence if you came out as gay in some Muslim countries?