The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[NissanSkylineN1]

Ahh, I see now. So in fact, the idea of not reproducing is helping humans... so can we take this to our advantage? For example, introduce homosexuality in over-populated areas such as China and India?

I'm sorry but thats a horrible conclusion.

What are you even basing that on?

What I based it on was that one of the definitions of a species is to reproduce. For example, a Mule is not a species because they can't reproduce.

 

[Dennisch]

Ahh, I see now. So in fact, the idea of not reproducing is helping humans... so can we take this to our advantage? For example, introduce homosexuality in over-populated areas such as China and India?

You know it doesn't work like that, do you?

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

You know it doesn't work like that, do you?

Ahaha, I know. Theres much more to it and it would be quite hard to do. It was just food for thought.

 

[FoolKiller]

Sorry about the thread revive, but I had a thought recently. If the purpose of a species is to reproduce, and homosexuals can't reproduce due to their sexual preference, doesn't that mean that they don't want to be a part of the human species? I know that's not their intent, but any homophobe can use that as a valid argument against them. Right?

Purpose? As in some thing or some one assigned us a job? If so, it clearly wasn't the supposed gay-hating God of The Bible or Quran that many quote. If reproduction were the goal monogamy (one partner) is very counter to that goal, so the purpose likely isn't coming from there.

If it is some sort of natural force, then we must consider that homosexuality would not be the only thing preventing mating. My wife had a condition known as endometriosis, which caused her to need surgery. If the lack of ability to reproduce is reason to ostracize someone then my wife should fall into that category as well as all forms of birth control.

Simply, the purpose of reproduction argument collapses the moment you look at things not related to homosexuality. At best you can argue that it is a natural abnormality that harms the species, but so are genetic conditions, fertility diseases, priests, nuns, the military, the fast food industry, and anything else which goes against aiding the general health and growth of a society.

Sorry, but the argument doesn't work. If anything, it manages to point out the bigotry in only having a problem with homosexuality.

 

[theotherspongey]

What I based it on was that one of the definitions of a species is to reproduce. For example, a Mule is not a species because they can't reproduce.

But one human is part of an entire species.

Just because one does not follow the "rules" of a species, does not exclude them from being in the species. Why? Because they're born into the species.

Also, I saw this and thought I'd drop it here.

 

[dylansan]

The definition of species requires the ability to reproduce, not the actual act of reproducing. A human who doesn't have children in their life is still a human. A gay person is physically capable of reproducing, but unless they somehow fertilize an egg at some point, they don't.

I'm not sure how the definition of species treats people who have genetic mutations or other differences that make them physically unable to reproduce, but I'm sure the scientific definition of species is much more complex and specific than you are making it out to be, N1.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

@ Parham. If you consider that we're becoming overpopulated, homosexuality would be a good thing so we won't become even more overpopulated.

That's what China thought too at first but learn they are more trouble than they are worth. It's the same that abortions help curve the overpopulation but causes other problems. Like the fact we have a growing number of elders compared to the youth. As one person wrote many years ago some of our greatest problems are our solutions.

 

[Jacob]

Ahaha, I know. Theres much more to it and it would be quite hard to do. It was just food for thought.

How do you mean with the "much more to it"? You do still seem to (jokingly?) say that there aren't any homosexuals in China or India... or I just don't understand your choice of words...

 

[Roger the Horse]

I have problems with the title of this thread. Homosexuality is in absolutely no way whatsoever a serious issue. Nor is it an 'alternative lifestyle'. Alternative to what? It's just the way some people are. One of my best friends is bi, and they've known that since they were a little kid. It's just the way some people are born.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

I have problems with the title of this thread. Homosexuality is in absolutely no way whatsoever a serious issue. Nor is it an 'alternative lifestyle'. Alternative to what? It's just the way some people are. One of my best friends is bi, and they've known that since they were a little kid. It's just the way some people are born.

Oh No! Not the "born that way" excuse. How far are we willing to go with "born that way" excuse? Serial killers? Child molesters? Culture plays a big role including how many believes that people are born that way.

 

[Jacob]

I have problems with the title of this thread. Homosexuality is in absolutely no way whatsoever a serious issue. Nor is it an 'alternative lifestyle'. Alternative to what? It's just the way some people are. One of my best friends is bi, and they've known that since they were a little kid. It's just the way some people are born.

That's what I believe, you can't make a person gay, or vice versa, homosexuality has always existed. And well, you do still have some deeply religious people who have the "serious-issue"-opinion.

Oh No! Not the "born that way" excuse. How far are we willing to go with "born that way" excuse? Serial killers? Child molesters?

What?

 

[Roger the Horse]

You do still have some deeply religious people who have the "serious-issue"-opinion.

There are deeply religious people out there who believe that 9/11 was a good thing.

 

[Azuremen]

Oh No! Not the "born that way" excuse. How far are we willing to go with "born that way" excuse? Serial killers? Child molesters? Culture plays a big role including how many believes that people are born that way.

Actually, there is a decent amount of evidence to show that Serial Killer and Child Molesters often have genetic faults that contribute to their mental state being so.

And there is quite a bit to show homosexuality is a "born with" trait.

Or you know, you can just like pretend that doesn't exist and assume it is just people wanting to do things differently. Which isn't really an issue either, least how I see it.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Actually, there is a decent amount of evidence to show that Serial Killer and Child Molesters often have genetic faults that contribute to their mental state being so.

They know that because they found genes that cause scientist to believe that human behavior can be explained mechanically.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

How do you mean with the "much more to it"? You do still seem to (jokingly?) say that there aren't any homosexuals in China or India... or I just don't understand your choice of words...

I am aware of homosexual presence in China and India, but the popularity of it is less than it is here in the west.

 

[Liquid]

They know that because they found genes that make scientist believe that human behavior can be explained mechanically.

Sounds more like you mean chemically, not mechanically.

I am aware of homosexual presence in China and India, but the popularity of it is less than it is here in the west.

Their opinions towards it may have to change, but it's not a popularity contest. It's a way of being.

 

[Roger the Horse]

Actually, there is a decent amount of evidence to show that Serial Killer and Child Molesters often have genetic faults that contribute to their mental state being so.

And there is quite a bit to show homosexuality is a "born with" trait.

Or you know, you can just like pretend that doesn't exist and assume it is just people wanting to do things differently. Which isn't really an issue either, least how I see it.

Your head is full of win! Have you ever studied Philosophy or Critical Thinking or whatever it's called where you live. That's the sort of argument that they look for in that, a complete deconstruction of all the fallacies in another argument.

I remember seeing a very interesting programme about why a serial killer in the US wasn't sentenced to death because brain scans showed that their brain was structured differently to the way that most people's brains are, and that their brain had difficulty understanding the effects of what they were doing.

I am aware of homosexual presence in China and India, but the popularity of it is less than it is here in the west.

It's a cultural thing. Homosexuals in China or India will be less likely to 'come out of the closet' than people in the West. If you wanted to have sex with Goats living in western culture, it would be highly unlikely that you would, and it would be highly unlikely that you'd tell any other people about it.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

I don't think that you are born with it. You develop it as you grow up, and how you have been brought up.

Their opinions towards it may have to change, but it's not a popularity contest. It's a way of being.

Its not that its a popularity contest, but the idea of it hasn't stuck in their cultures (its deeply frowned upon) until Western influences came in.

@Azuremen: That post on my profile, are you trying to offend me again?

 

[Dennisch]

I remember seeing a very interesting programme about why a serial killer in the US wasn't sentenced to death because brain scans showed that their brain was structured differently to the way that most people's brains are, and that their brain had difficulty understanding the effects of what they were doing.

Common knowledge in the world of science.

@Azuremen: That post on my profile, are you trying to offend me again?

I would say it's an educational post.

 

[Azuremen]

@Azuremen: That post on my profile, are you trying to offend me again?

at you assuming I'm just trying to offend you.

It is called bringing awareness and linking to rather respectable studies. The fact you think I'm trying to offend is hilariously though, and almost disconcerting in a way.

If anyone is wondering, I posted this study on Homophobia being linked to self loathing.

Really, it makes sense intuitively, as people are often the most defensive about things they are insecure about. You can see similar tendencies when racism comes up and people become adamant about denying it or trying to laugh it off.

I could also link the study showing phobia of other cultures in general is often linked to lower intelligence, along polarization in political and policy views, such as extreme liberals and conservatives. The reason being their inability to perceive a situation from the other parties perspective leaves them unable to understand why someone would think differently. You can often see this when people ask "why would they want to be gay" or "why would people be okay with XYZ" in another culture.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

.

I remember seeing a very interesting programme about why a serial killer in the US wasn't sentenced to death because brain scans showed that their brain was structured differently to the way that most people's brains are, and that their brain had difficulty understanding the effects of what they were doing.


.

I remember the researchers of this study warned that these brain scan doesn't mean what is the cause. It's the same someone mental state can effect them physically and visa versa. The serial killers frontal lobes may be less active because of what that person choose focus to think on ... like killing and hating people. It's a lot easier to kill people you see as less human and have no affection for.
One thing scientist has learn is the brain structure is extremely flexible.


************

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles...."

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=528376
There is more evidence "born that way" is about culture and politics than hard science.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

at you assuming I'm just trying to offend you.

You're known to do it (Computers section of the forums), so that was my first thought when I opened the link.

 

[Azuremen]

You post something that states "there is no consensus" and then use it to support an argument it in no way argues. And in fact says feels both nature and nurture.

Versus "hard science."

Do you even understand what it is you are reading and linking, because I am beginning to suspect you do not.

You're known to do it (Computers section of the forums), so that was my first thought when I opened the link.

You mean I point out when your reasoning is flawed? Just pointing things out, not trying to offend.

But you know, whatever floats your boat. Am I right?

 

[Roger the Horse]

I'm actually interested in what would cause someone to be homophobic in the first place. That theory about self-loathing seemed like a good one, although I always just see it as a fear of difference. eg.

I own a PS3 and play GT, so I don't like people who own XBOXes and play Forza.

or

I come from somewhere other than Coleford, so I don't like people from Coleford.

or

I drink Coke, so I don't like people who drink Pepsi

The other thing is that some people believe that their religion is always absolutely right and that everyone else must follow it. If someone comes up to you and starts acting like this, you are fully within your rights to tell them to get lost, religion is a personal thing, people disagree about it, they should stop arguing and just get on with their lives, people aren't going to convince people that they disagree with on such matters to change their views very often, or at all easily.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Yes, I have read (and watched the video in the article) and understood your article that you have posted.

The reason why I thought it could have been offending was that I thought you were saying that I am insecure (in terms of sexuality) since I am not fond of homosexuality. However, this is not the case for me, and now I understand your original intents. I apologize for my accusation. And, sometimes, you do offend people by calling them names. However, lets keep this debate non-personal, shall we?

Back to the topic, that link you have posted is interesting. However, this leaves me with a question. If parents are responsible for suppressing/biasing their children's sexual preferences, is it possible to parent your child so its guaranteed that they will come out straight?

Regarding religion, I think it is only right for them to use religion in their arguments if they have personally researched themselves from a primary source and have not distorted the text, nor left out major points.

 

[Azuremen]

Back to the topic, that link you have posted is interesting. However, this leaves me with a question. If parents are responsible for suppressing/biasing their children's sexual preferences, is it possible to parent your child so its guaranteed that they will come out straight?

No.

Strong peer and mentor pressure will simply force someone into a lifestyle they are never really comfortable with. Which is why you see people end up in family situations, married, and then finally come to terms with being gay after 40 years, etc.

Also, at your age, there is considerable pressure to be homophobic, as it is often the source of mockery and insults. Which is also why so many young males tend to be so insecure about, even well into college. Quite fascinating to see how defensive Frat guys will get over it being implied they are gay - I've seen full of fights erupt more than a few times between guys in their 20's because of it. Guys that are college educated at that.

Just blows my mind people care that much about words and implications of something so trivial.

Regarding religion, I think it is only right for them to use religion in their arguments if they have personally researched themselves from a primary source and have not distorted the text, nor left out major points.

You do realize it is quite easy to argue that most religious manuscripts are in fact distortions of their original forms? The Quran has issues due to a lack of proper writing and marking when transcribed, the Christian Bible has countless versions and revisions, and so on.

 

[Jacob]

First off, the "popularity thing" you talked about... I'm pretty damn sure there are much more homosexuals in China or India compared to Sweden, where I live. But the amount of gay people who "come out" and confirm that they are homosexual is the probably a lot smaller in countries like China were it would be more looked down upon in society. Isn't there some kind of consensus that about 5-10% of all humans are homosexual?

Back to the topic, that link you have posted is interesting. However, this leaves me with a question. If parents are responsible for suppressing/biasing their children's sexual preferences, is it possible to parent your child so its guaranteed that they will come out straight?

As Azuremen said, no. You could perhaps, again as Azuremen said, as a parent make it easier or harder for the person in question to embrace their own sexuality, there ought to be some people who have lived heterosexual lives long into the 60s/70s and then have they reached the point where they start living exactly as they were born (which I think people are, born with their sexuality).

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

How about the Torah?

First off, the "popularity thing" you talked about... I'm pretty damn sure there are much more homosexuals in China or India compared to Sweden,

You can't talk about the number of population with those two countries. You have to talk about percentage. Over there, I think the percentage is lower than Sweden.

 

[Azuremen]

How about the Torah?

Jewish, eh?

Pretty sure that has been revised a few times in the past 2500 years. And probably translated a few times as well.

You can't talk about the number of population with those two countries. You have to talk about percentage. Over there, I think the percentage is lower than Sweden.

Think? Pretty sure it is probably damn near the same, just not answered honestly as much due to the nature of the Chinese government.

 

[Jacob]

You can't talk about the number of population with those two countries. You have to talk about percentage. Over there, I think the percentage is lower than Sweden.

But... Shouldn't it be the same percentage of the population, but the confirmed homosexuals are more here in Sweden relative to China when you look at the total amount of homosexuals. So yes, you are correct with that, but it should still (unconfirmed or not) be 10-5% of all Chinese.

Tree'd by Azuremen.

Think? Pretty sure it is probably damn near the same, just not answered honestly as much due to the nature of the Chinese government.

Precisely.