The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

[Jav]

The Porsche LMP1 will be a 2014 car. How will it be racing in 2013 regulations? When they said it'll make it's debut, they mean that's when the roll-out of the car will take place. Not when it'll be racing. 👍

How could the Deltawing race in any ALMS event if doesn't meet the regulations...? Oh yeah! Unclassified!!
;-)

In the ALMS? I don't see how. This is the last year of the ALMS. The Porsche doesn't come out until next year.

Edit. Something I've just seen. American Class Structure Announcement on Radio Le mans tomorrow 5PM

http://rlm.0157.org/

So, did anyone catch the podcast??

 

[RACECAR]

How could the Deltawing race in any ALMS event if doesn't meet the regulations...? Oh yeah! Unclassified!!
;-)

Big difference however is look whos behind the Deltawing and look who's behind the Porsche LMP. Also, Pretty sure the Porsche P1 car is going WEC unlike the Deltawing.

 

[hawkeye122]

So, did anyone catch the podcast??

It hasnt happened yet.

 

[Furinkazen]

Andrea Bellichi has re signed for Rebellion Racing for 2013.

And wow.

 

[gogatrs]

How could the Deltawing race in any ALMS event if doesn't meet the regulations...? Oh yeah! Unclassified!!
;-)

So, did anyone catch the podcast??

The RLM's website has been updated to say that it's tomorrow.

 

[Jav]

Big difference however is look whos behind the Deltawing and look who's behind the Porsche LMP. Also, Pretty sure the Porsche P1 car is going WEC unlike the Deltawing.

How is it any different? The ALMS has already showed it will do anything to get exposure and being the last race of its existance I don't see why wouldn't they allow the car in.
And yes, I also feel they'll be a WEC team, but I guess after tomorrow we will have a better idea and more information flow!

------------------------------------------------

I know many here will enjoy this:

 

[RACECAR]

How is it any different? The ALMS has already showed it will do anything to get exposure and being the last race of its existance I don't see why wouldn't they allow the car in.
And yes, I also feel they'll be a WEC team, but I guess after tomorrow we will have a better idea and more information flow!

Its different because LMP1 as we know in the states will be no more next season and if Porsche show up with their LMP, they'll at best just arrive at the event just to show it to the public and when 2014 roles around, LMP1 will exclusively be a WEC class. There's also the fact that we have no idea how far along that car even is, hell we don't even have sketches or renders or wind tunnel models to at least give us any indication of where its going so that leaves a huge question mark if it will even be completed in time to compete. The Deltawing on the other hand is a complete car and having its classification worked out so it can actually compete for points in this new series (supposedly P2) and knowing how much it means to Don Panoz, its almost a guarantee he isn't gonna let that car go to waste. Now I have no idea where I said they wouldn't allow as I know I didn't say that, but ultimately the difference is that the Deltawing is here right now and therefore stands a better chance at showing up then the Porsche LMP1 does.

 

[gogatrs]

http://www.dailysportscar.com/viewArticle.cfm?articleUID=066EF7FF-C2EB-A9DC-AC2369A8F11610E5

[*]No more P1

[*]P2 and DP are combining to form the top class

[*]PC is being retained

[*]ALMS GT will remain as is and it's own class

[*]GTC and Grand Am GT are combining

[*]GX is still being assesed

Regs TBA

 

[Jav]

GX needs to go bye bye!! And if manufacturers want to race a car in a certain class build a freaking car that fits and put it on the showroom!!

 

[hawkeye122]

One good thing can be gained from this- Drivers like Westbrook and Auberlen can't drive 2 cars at once, so maybe we'll see more of an opportunity for younger drivers to step into PC and GAGT cars, and out of their respective feeder series. And the current LMPC and GTC drivers may get to start playing with the big boys!

 

[freshseth83]

GX needs to go bye bye!! And if manufacturers want to race a car in a certain class build a freaking car that fits and put it on the showroom!!

That's what Mazda is doing. It's called GX class. They're using a turbo diesel Mazda 6 that will be available on the street.

 

[Jav]

My rant still stands for the tube frame silhuete cars!

 

[RACECAR]

My rant still stands for the tube frame silhuete cars!

And yet you seem to have no problem with Super GT and DTM.

Very interesting.

 

[Jav]

And yet you seem to have no problem with Super GT and DTM.

Very interesting.

Different classes, those are what the LMP cars should be!

 

[RACECAR]

Different classes, those are what the LMP cars should be!

Point is, those are Tubeframe cars as well. What exactly IS the big deal about Tubeframe cars that makes you want them gone?

 

[aarror]

Point is, those are Tubeframe cars as well. What exactly IS the big deal about Tubeframe cars that makes you want them gone?

I think the point Jav is trying to make is that GT cars should be production based and have actual relevance to the road cars they represent. The technology on the racetrack should be the same as the technology in the showroom.

ALMS currently does this with its Gt class, while grand am uses tube framed cars with nothing in common with the road cars they represent, making them irrelevant. While you make a valid point about DTM and Super GT, that is a whole different conversation.

 

[Jav]

Thank you Aarror for seeing my point, and about the SuperGT/DTM cars I think the ACO and FIA need to take notice and change the current LMP cars to something along the lines of those classes. Have cars that at least resemble cars and not spaceships!
And most of my hate for tube frame cars come from the fact that they let the manufacuresrs get away with producing crappy cars and sell the idea of them being great to the general clueless public by racing tube frame monsters that share nothing with the car they pretend to be.

 

[RACECAR]

Thank you Aarror for seeing my point, and about the SuperGT/DTM cars I think the ACO and FIA need to take notice and change the current LMP cars to something along the lines of those classes. Have cars that at least resemble cars and not spaceships!

So basically, back to GT1:

Which from what I recall, didn't work out all that well the last time that happened (and funny enough, any class named "GT1" subsequently also went to hell. Maybe thats a cursed name). Also, here's the problem with your idea (at least from how I'm interpreting it): It sorta conflicts with this:

And most of my hate for tube frame cars come from the fact that they let the manufacuresrs get away with producing crappy cars and sell the idea of them being great to the general clueless public by racing tube frame monsters that share nothing with the car they pretend to be.

Now sure Prototypes aren't exactly Tubeframe but think about your idea: You want Prototypes to stop being technology tests and start looking like road cars. Wouldn't that mean getting rid of them because at present, you basically are suggesting the prototypes to do the exact same thing the current Grand-Am GT Class (and various other series) have/are doing: Make cars that only resemble the car they share very little with (like that 911 GT1). There's also the idea that them "looking like spaceships" is the point: They are rolling science projects with the latest technoligies, of course they're gonna look like spaceships. Thats what defines Le Mans Prototypes, thats they're identity.

 

[aarror]

racecar: So basically, back to GT1:

Which from what I recall, didn't work out all that well the last time that happened (and funny enough, any class named "GT1" subsequently also went to hell. Maybe thats a cursed name). [/QOUTE]

Haha, so true!

Now sure Prototypes aren't exactly Tubeframe but think about your idea: You want Prototypes to stop being technology tests and start looking like road cars. Wouldn't that mean getting rid of them because at present, you basically are suggesting the prototypes to do the exact same thing the current Grand-Am GT Class (and various other series) have/are doing: Make cars that only resemble the car they share very little with (like that 911 GT1). There's also the idea that them "looking like spaceships" is the point: They are rolling science projects with the latest technoligies, of course they're gonna look like spaceships. Thats what defines Le Mans Prototypes, thats they're identity.

Prototypes are for manufacturers to showcase cutting edge/futuristic technologies, while GTs are to showcase what the manufacturers have on offer. Audi's LMP1 for example showcases the brands Quattro technology, as well as energy recovery systems (ERS) and turbo diesel power and efficiency. The Daytona prototypes and Grand am GT on the other hand fail to showcase any new technologies, or even road car relevant technologies. LMP2/LMPC is guilty of this as well.

I personally like the Group C era "spaceships" the best, but for various reasons we will never see cars like that again. The current ones are okay, if they take the big honkin' fin off the back.

Edit: damn iPad app!

 

[Jav]

Nope! A SuperGT/DTM car has as much technology and is as much if not more of a test lab on wheels as an LMP1 car. KERS, DRS, Hybrid technologies all can be applied to any car. In fact Ferrari tested their KERS system for the "next Enzo" on the Glikenhouse car on the N24 on 2012.
No I don't want an all GT field, I still like the insane spending to win LeMans with the marketing excuse of it all being the "technology of tomorrow" BS... I would simply like those cars to resemble an actual car, you know like the Corvette Daytona Prototurtles but actually fast!

 

[aarror]

Nope! A SuperGT/DTM car has as much technology and is as much if not more of a test lab on wheels as an LMP1 car. KERS, DRS, Hybrid technologies all can be applied to any car. In fact Ferrari tested their KERS system for the "next Enzo" on the Glikenhouse car on the N24 on 2012.
No I don't want an all GT field, I still like the insane spending to win LeMans with the marketing excuse of it all being the "technology of tomorrow" BS... I would simply like those cars to resemble an actual car, you know like the Corvette Daytona Prototurtles but actually fast!

So like the mclaren f1 GTRs, Nissan R390s and Mercedes CLK GTRs and such that ran at lemans in the 90s? I'm down for a return to those regs. That was awesome racing.

 

[Jav]

So like the mclaren f1 GTRs, Nissan R390s and Mercedes CLK GTRs and such that ran at lemans in the 90s? I'm down for a return to those regs. That was awesome racing.

Kinda' but not really... Those rules where purposely poorly written, all you needed to do was produce 3 "road versions" of the cars, you didn't even had to sell them in order to race them at LM. I'd love to see something as advanced as an R18 or Toyota TS0WTEVR in a shape that woud resemble a roadgoing car. It would still be a prototype class where all the black magic voodoo is allowed, only with a recognizable shape!

 

[R0ssingt0n]

I personally don't see anything wrong with the way the P1 cars are now. I think if they resembled production cars some of the uniqueness of the sport would be lost. There's just something awesome about seeing spaceship-like cars blasting past you at Le Mans.

 

[RACECAR]

The Daytona prototypes and Grand am GT on the other hand fail to showcase any new technologies, or even road car relevant technologies. LMP2/LMPC is guilty of this as well.

Of course the Daytona Prototypes don't, they weren't intended to , initailly they were a cost efficient formula of having an "exotic" class without all the spiraling spending and costs the LMPs inherently have. The latest Generation has the added purpose of brand reconition (because even longtime fans like me got tired of seeing "a class" with nothing but Rileys that looked no different save for badges). Again it doesn't have any of the technology found in LMP but ask yourself this: Can you reconize the brand that car represents better with just changes of engines and stickers (Gen 1), or when the cars actually look vastly different (Gen 3)?

Nope! A SuperGT/DTM car has as much technology and is as much if not more of a test lab on wheels as an LMP1 car. KERS, DRS, Hybrid technologies all can be applied to any car. In fact Ferrari tested their KERS system for the "next Enzo" on the Glikenhouse car on the N24 on 2012.
No I don't want an all GT field, I still like the insane spending to win LeMans with the marketing excuse of it all being the "technology of tomorrow" BS... I would simply like those cars to resemble an actual car, you know like the Corvette Daytona Prototurtles but actually fast!

Yet, the cars don't have any of those. Actually, there's nothing from Super GT that transfers to the street cars actually. And then there's this problem: Whereas the Prototypes at least are right off the bat cars not deceiving you (and still utilizes things actually in the road cars like Audi's TDI or Toyota's Hybrid system), Super GT cars mimic cars that aren't even for sale (HSV), use engines not available in the road car (GT-R) and mimic cars long retired and out of production (SC430). At least DTMs and their silouttes are based on cars that are actually available right now( even though they too use engines not available in the road car). They also do not have anything that transfers to Roadcars as far as I can tell.

 

[Furinkazen]

Going to wade in here:

LMP1 will always be in one form or another about non-road going cars. The whole point of them is to be pure race-bred prototypes, which also allows other constructors to compete who may not make road cars, like Pescarolo, Lola, ORECA, Zytek...

LMP2 is flourishing. 21 entered the 2012 Le Mans 24 Hours, and its got its place right on the sportscar map bang on. LMPC slots in below nicely with the ORECA category making its way in as a step up.

GTE category has to stay. Out of all categories, it has been consistently strongest for perhaps 10 years now. There's always been a mix of cars, many differing drivers, and that should stay in terms of regulation identical. Thats going too continue as well - what Porsche are doing for 2013 / 14 is quite clever - by campaigning the 991 - spec RSR as a works team, that will prove its potential to customers who will end up buying them all for 2014 onwards.

The Grand Am categories are the ones that have to adapt, due to an important thing - appeal and range. Where are each of the LM categories raced? Answer - nearly everwhere - LMP2 is very much perhaps the most relavent in its usage in the US, europe in the ELMS, and asia in the Asian LMS. It would make no sense to change P2 regulations for just america - the vast majority of teams who compete in and out of the US would have to alter car specs just for going to the US - what would be the point?

DP category however can be grown as its own class compared to LMP2, with it only being based and used in the US, there won;t be as great costs for altering and tweaking them compared to other categories, as they are not as widely used.

Same applies for GTE. The old style GT1 will not come back unless perhaps its used in some form with DP (we already have a "Corvette" DP after all...) . Cost killed it and whilst they might have looked amazing, been brilliant racing, was the class sustainable with the Porsche 911 GT1's, Mercedes CLR's, and Nissan R390 GT1's? No, thats why it died. A similar fate befell GT1 that was born out of the Le Mans "GTS" category - costs became too high, teams couldn't run it. Other than the AMR vs Corvette Le Mans battles, what did we have other than them? A tardy Zonda, a terrible Murcielago, and a few Saleen S7's. The fact a S7 won its class in its final year, shows the lack of other cars - GT1 was a single didgit entry if I recall in its final year.

But compared to GTE, which took center stage, that was grown out of what was called "GT2". That's where there should be the established "showroom / racer" link - part of its success is in the fact the cars are closer based to dealership cars and not as tubeframed and lightened as the old GT1's. And also its even bigger appeal than LMP2 is another reason why those regulations shouldn't be changed - GA GT should be absorbed into that.

 

[VspecZR1GT2RS89]

Nope! A SuperGT/DTM car has as much technology and is as much if not more of a test lab on wheels as an LMP1 car. KERS, DRS, Hybrid technologies all can be applied to any car. In fact Ferrari tested their KERS system for the "next Enzo" on the Glikenhouse car on the N24 on 2012.
No I don't want an all GT field, I still like the insane spending to win LeMans with the marketing excuse of it all being the "technology of tomorrow" BS... I would simply like those cars to resemble an actual car, you know like the Corvette Daytona Prototurtles but actually fast!

I see where you're coming from though. Don't get me wrong, I love the LMPs and the moving science projects and what they bring to the table in their road cars. That's the innovation I like to see, but they are missing something that I always loved about the GT1s that I want to see come back soon.

The 90's with the Homologation Era. That's where iconic cars like the McLaren F1, CLK GTR, GT-ONE, R390, 911 GT1, Elise GT1 and a few more that I can't remember, they made that the best era of purebreds. And should I add the '00 ones like the MC12 Corsa, S7R and the Zonda R as well ?

These cars actually displayed the technology from their roots of endurance racing onto the streets. In my eyes, they had both the science project research and theories on a LMP and looked like a supercar for the roads and track days as a GT1. I was disappointed when the Zonda R was declined by the FIA to being a roadcar with racing tech from Mr. Pagani. The car had potential for this and could bring back the GT1 class. But at lass it didn't even succeed.

And I always wondered about seeing a road going R18, the GT-ONE Hybrid (TS030) and the 908 for the longest. 💡

 

[Jav]

Guys I don't have any trouble with the current LMP cars. All I'm saying is that I would like to see them adopt a rule that made them look more like a road going car than a spaceship. And SuperGT do have rules just like GT-E where you have to run a car that's in production or is going to production during that particular season. The HSV was ready to go into production when it was homologated for SuperGT, problem is that Honda lost its balls and canned the program!

 

[Mac K]

For the record not all Grand-Am GT cars are tube-framed..

 

[Jav]

For the record not all Grand-Am GT cars are tube-framed..

And that's what further enfuriates me! How is it that Porsche can make a good car and sell it succesfully, but yet other guys like Mazda and even GM can't??
The RX-8 had a great chassis to begin with, why go the lame tube frame route?? That era had long died with Trans Am before GA brought it back!

 

[RACECAR]

And that's what further enfuriates me! How is it that Porsche can make a good car and sell it succesfully, but yet other guys like Mazda and even GM can't??

Simple: GM Does, just not in Grand-Am. As far as I can work out, GM doesn't even make the Camaro GT cars (likewise Mazda does not make the RX-8), it just the teams that assemble these cars together (courtesy of Riley Technologies, the Daytona Prototype Contructor) meanwhile the Manufacterers just allow them to prance around while "selling" the idea that these are related to street cars (which is only 10% true with the engine and thats it). I don't really have a problem about them being tubeframe (I'm not even mad, bro), I'm more miffed at the fact that for the last consecutive years since 2005, the GT class hardly looked like a GT class and looked more like just abunch of cars with just some wings and race tires plopped on.

Guys I don't have any trouble with the current LMP cars. All I'm saying is that I would like to see them adopt a rule that made them look more like a road going car than a spaceship.

I know you don't, I was just pointing out that the very problem you have with Grand-Am's Tubeframe GT cars (Sharing almsot nothing with the car it pretends to be) seems to sort of present itself again with your idea of the rule change.

And SuperGT do have rules just like GT-E where you have to run a car that's in production or is going to production during that particular season. The HSV was ready to go into production when it was homologated for SuperGT, problem is that Honda lost its balls and canned the program!

Actually, that car was cancelled well before the NSX was retired AND before Honda decided to use that loophole about a Production based chassis.