The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

[Jav]

That is one thing I find interesting about Mercedes. You would think with them making a GT3 car, they'd be abit eager in returning to racing at Le Mans. Guess they aren't that eager just yet.


Also, The BMW Z4 GTE car looks more spectacular then I imagined and I was very hopeful.

You know, I actually like the GT-3 car's wide body much better... Don't know, I dislike how the GT-E doesn't flow with the car's natural lines. Who, know's?? That may very well be the new wide body for the 2013 GT-3 car too!

Yes to Merc, add Audi, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infinity and Honda/Acura to that list of manufacturers that need to go to battle on the GT-E field!

 

[01GTP]

That fact it could not attract more entries *snip* the last few years doesn't exactly seem to suggest it would've done much better if Grand-Am hadn't intervened.

Agreed.

The LMP1 entry size is all the evidence needed.
It's too bad the LMP1 class isn't that appealing in the ALMS.

The future (as always) will bring change, what type of race cars will there be in 5 years time is questionable at best.
Will they even be protoypes as we know them today?
One thing I think we all agree is that some type of GT racing will be the staple of auto racing around the world.
Prototypes.........?

 

[cnd01]

Agreed.

The LMP1 entry size is all the evidence needed.
It's too bad the LMP1 class isn't that appealing in the ALMS.

The future (as always) will bring change, what type of race cars will there be in 5 years time is questionable at best.
Will they even be protoypes as we know them today?
One thing I think we all agree is that some type of GT racing will be the staple of auto racing around the world.
Prototypes.........?

Lmp1 Is appealing just waaaaaaaaay to damn expensive for non factory teams to run. Since only a handful of teams are willing to spend the money, the racing isn't the quality of what the DP race is. People like to watch more cars.

 

[Mac K]

 

[freshseth83]

Then tell me why no manufacterer has ever since attempted P1 in the ALMS or why the only teams that could ever compete were Dyson and Muscle Milk. You seriously think that in the current economy, LMP1 would've survived here in the ALMS? That fact it could not attract more entries post Sebring or prior to Petit Le Mans the last few years doesn't exactly seem to suggest it would've done much better if Grand-Am hadn't intervened.

What? P1 is dead because the financial situation of the world and the efforts are scaled back. If you need me to tell you this you don't pay much attention to the climate of the financial world and how it affects racing programs like this. The ALMS isn't a factor for factory P1 cars because the return of investment. There isn't any. ALMS is seldom seen in the mainstream. If you want ROI, you do Nascar like Toyota. In Europe where the exposure is much greater you get the factory participation.

Seriously, this is the sort of xenophobia that needs to stop. So many people keeps thinking this merger Automatically means a NASCAR take over when thats not true. There is no "trying to make DP the top class" going on. Explain to me how they are trying to make the DP class the top class by combining with another class. If this is so true, then tell me why couldn't they have just ditched LMP2 all together if they wanted to accomplish that? Why would Grand-Am even waste time supposedly developing a 4th-gen DP thats more closer to the new LMP regs if they only want DP as the top class? Wouldn't logic dictate that if you are pulling a hostile taking over of something, you completely ditch all of the old and replace it completely instead of keeping it and trying to compremise?

Really? So when they say they want to speed DP's up to LMP2 speed and make it the top class, that's somehow not making it the top class? Your argument is weak. You should start reading around or pay closer attention. No one said "NASCAR is taking over". I said NASCAR is like rolling billboards, and that's what the DPs are. Spec cars differentiated by stickers and liveries.

You set around saying Earth is "Making up" reasons when your "Nascar taking over" theory is more questionable and illogical then the very reasons Earth "made up". Sorry, but your facts like with many other elistest ALMS fans just seem like one big conspiracy made up of fear and disgust instead of actual research and you don't make it better by flat out claiming everyone is making up reasons.

What conspiracy? NASCAR group runs GA. That's a fact. There is no 'merger'. They're allowing some of the cars and classes to continue on. Again, read and pay attention and you'll come to clear understanding that this isn't just a mere 'merger' like you're claiming. You talk about research but you're the one lacking it.

 

[Northstar]

What? P1 is dead because the financial situation of the world and the efforts are scaled back.

Audi pulled out of ALMS well before the economy went to the crapper...

I said NASCAR is like rolling billboards

Show me a series that isn't?

Hell compared to some series NASCAR barely allows any logos on the car.

What conspiracy? NASCAR group runs GA. That's a fact. There is no 'merger'. They're allowing some of the cars and classes to continue on.

Are you aware of what a merger is?

merger, corporate combination of two or more independent business corporations into a single enterprise, usually the absorption of one or more firms by a dominant one. A merger may be accomplished by one firm purchasing the other’s assets with cash or its securities or by purchasing the other’s shares or stock or by issuing its stock to the other firm’s stockholders in exchange for their shares in the acquired firm (thus acquiring the other company’s assets and liabilities).

Mergers are of several different types: horizontal, if both firms produce the same commodity or service for the same market; market-extensional, if the merged firms produce the same commodity or service for different markets; or vertical, if a firm acquires either a supplier or a customer. If the merged business is not related to that of the acquiring firm, the new corporation is called a conglomerate.

The reasons for mergers are various. The acquiring firm may seek to eliminate a competitor; to increase its efficiency; to diversify its products, services, and markets; or to reduce its taxes. Merger activity varies with the business cycle, being higher when business is good.

I don't think ALMS would have survived much longer anyways, sure the GTE class is awesome but that won't sell many tickets.

 

[cnd01]

Seth, LMP1 is dependent on manufacture involvement. With the recession, not enough manufactures wants to spend the extra money needed to develop and test the cars. I don't like watching a race that's over after turn 1 compared to a 24 hour race at Daytona that is decided by about 20 seconds.

 

[hawkeye122]

As much as I love the DP vs LMP debate, can we end it now? We've already established what's going to get said, and now it's just repeating itself. Seriously guys, lets move on

 

[aarror]

Jeez, you guys are really cherry picking which part of his post to respond to. Audi (and other P1 manufacturers) don't race ALMS because there is very little return of investment. With poor TV coverage it isn't worth their money to run in the full season, they can just run the big events with more exposure like Sebring and PLM to get publicity. But Seth said all this already...

While I'm not convinced Nascar won't screw it up, I'm cautiously optimistic that this can help sportscar racing in North America. So long as they don't mess with GTE I'll be okay with it. The best thing about the merger is that we should finally get some decent TV coverage since the 2 series no longer compete, and as long as they use ALMS race control, we should get some good races too.

Edit: screw it, what he said^

 

[cnd01]

Jeez, you guys are really cherry picking which part of his post to respond to. Audi (and other P1 manufacturers) don't race ALMS because there is very little return of investment. With poor TV coverage it isn't worth their money to run in the full season, they can just run the big events with more exposure like Sebring and PLM to get publicity. But Seth said all this already...

While I'm not convinced Nascar won't screw it up, I'm cautiously optimistic that this can help sportscar racing in North America. So long as they don't mess with GTE I'll be okay with it. The best thing about the merger is that we should finally get some decent TV coverage since the 2 series no longer compete, and as long as they use ALMS race control, we should get some good races too.

I am very glad alms race control is coming over. Grand am race control was about as logical as the BCS in college football...

 

[RACECAR]

Really? So when they say they want to speed DP's up to LMP2 speed and make it the top class, that's somehow not making it the top class? Your argument is weak. You should start reading around or pay closer attention. No one said "NASCAR is taking over". I said NASCAR is like rolling billboards, and that's what the DPs are. Spec cars differentiated by stickers and liveries.

Making DP top class would mean making speeding it up past LMP2, not speeding it up to equal LMP2. I bring up NASCAR because in not so many words, thats basically what these arguments always imply.

What conspiracy? NASCAR group runs GA. That's a fact. There is no 'merger'. They're allowing some of the cars and classes to continue on. Again, read and pay attention and you'll come to clear understanding that this isn't just a mere 'merger' like you're claiming. You talk about research but you're the one lacking it.

Exactly that: The Conspiracy that this isn't a Merger and its a takeover. If this wasn't a merger, they why would they even bring the ALMS classes over? You want to tell me I lack research, then show me proof. All the research I've been doing tells me otherwise. Indycar absorbing Champcar is a takeover. There was no unification or compromise, just one series mismanaged to the point where it couldn't survive and the ONLY thing left over was some tracks teams and drivers to the other series. This other hand is two series where sans P1, everything from both series is being combined. Again, I find your "research" about this being a takeover lacking any backing to it precisely based on the example I provided from the Open wheel "Unification". I did pay attention and unfortunately, all I'm getting from this is the same takeover theory that again has no actual concreate basis other then "Because Grand-am is run by NASCAR" and as usual, disregards the fact that Grand-Am operates on its own. Again if this is a takeover by said party, then what point is there in keeping anything from the ALMS?


Edit:

After reading the posts above, fine I'll end this discussion. This is clearly a argument that has no logical end and rather then sit and waste anymore time, I'll just instead concentrate on the current season at hand (which has some interesting new cars in GTE to look for.).

 

[freshseth83]

I'm not arguing with you. I'm telling you the facts. DP is said to be sped up to LMP2 speeds because they're dropping LMP1. Why go beyond LMP2 if there's no need? Also, just because they call it a merger and include some of the cars doesn't mean they aren't taking over ALMS. The only connection they'll have with the ACO is GTE and possible LMP2. The main reason GTE was kept was because that's the bread and butter of ALMS, the most contested class with actual factory support. You're not going to kick Corvette, Viper, Ferrari and BMW out. You have to do your digging, and when you do you'll see that this is a buy out. ALMS as we know it now will not exist. They've kept some of the familiar faces, some of the workings, but that's it. It's going to be run by the people who run GA. Sebring, Road Atlanta etc. now belong to them. This information is available, I don't know why you haven't read about it. Its like any normal company acquiring another. They may keep on staff, business practice etc. but you're under new management and ownership. That's exactly what's happening here.

 

[Snaeper]

​

I'm not arguing with you.

Yes, you are.

I'm telling you the facts. DP is said to be sped up to LMP2 speeds because they're dropping LMP1. Why go beyond LMP2 if there's no need? Also, just because they call it a merger and include some of the cars doesn't mean they aren't taking over ALMS. The only connection they'll have with the ACO is GTE and possible LMP2. The main reason GTE was kept was because that's the bread and butter of ALMS, the most contested class with actual factory support. You're not going to kick Corvette, Viper, Ferrari and BMW out. You have to do your digging, and when you do you'll see that this is a buy out. ALMS as we know it now will not exist. They've kept some of the familiar faces, some of the workings, but that's it. It's going to be run by the people who run GA. Sebring, Road Atlanta etc. now belong to them. This information is available, I don't know why you haven't read about it. Its like any normal company acquiring another. They may keep on staff, business practice etc. but you're under new management and ownership. That's exactly what's happening here.

All of this is common knowledge that you are combining with your opinion to make your point. You make it sound like Grand-Am was trying to hide the fact that they're the ones coming out on top in the merger. Takeover is a terrible word to use, by the way, since ALMS were and still are willing partners in this situation. Grand-Am didn't come in and start making tempting offers and throwing money around to quietly buy things up while IMSA wasn't looking.

 

[freshseth83]

Yes, you are.

Facts aren't arguments. Stating what someone is doing when they aren't, is. 💡

All of this is common knowledge that you are combining with your opinion to make your point. You make it sound like Grand-Am was trying to hide the fact that they're the ones coming out on top in the merger. Takeover is a terrible word to use, by the way, since ALMS were and still are willing partners in this situation. Grand-Am didn't come in and start making tempting offers and throwing money around to quietly buy things up while IMSA wasn't looking.

I don't make it sound like anything. Grand AM is taking over. They have acquired Don Panoz's series. All you have to do is a simple Google search- they've bought ALMS http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/spor...-unifies-Grand-Am-American-Le-Mans/57598680/1 👍

First line of the article-

NASCAR's purchase of the rival American Le Mans Series

First line second paragraph-

In a deal reportedly worth more than $10 million, NASCAR purchased Panoz Motor Sports Group, which operates ALMS

 

[Snaeper]

Facts aren't arguments. Stating what someone is doing when they aren't, is.

Looked and sounded like you were arguing with him, now it looks and sounds like you're arguing with me. Facts mean nothing without sources.

And when I said "All of this is common knowledge" I meant: "You're not telling us anything we don't already know, so obviously someone's opinion is getting in the way here."

I don't make it sound like anything. Grand AM is taking over. They have acquired Don Panoz's series. All you have to do is a simple Google search- they've bought ALMS http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/spor...-unifies-Grand-Am-American-Le-Mans/57598680/1 👍

Hey you posted a source, well done. It's nothing I didn't already know, but well done. The fact that you tell me that bolded part, makes it sound like you're sounding the alarm that Grand Am bought everything out and doesn't want anyone to know. We all know Grand Am bought everything out, ALMS/IMSA let them, they allowed it to happen, and they've been given a huge part in the merged series.

And to comment on a point made on the last page, P1 was dropped because they wanted to slim down the field of classes to "about 3 or 4" that obviously didn't end up happening, but P1 basically had a big target on it's back from that point on because it only had two teams competing full time in the series... why would they keep it again? Also, due to their growing relationship with the FIA/ACO, P1 could've bitten it because those two want the WEC to be the only P1 game in town. But that, like you saying P1 was eliminated to make DP the top class, is all theory and guesswork.

 

[freshseth83]

Stop reaching. You're reading too much into things and setting yourself up for failure. I don't have to do the research for you. You have fingers that type, as evidenced by your reply. So you can go to google or bing or yahoo and do it yourself! It's really not hard to type in what I'm saying and find out all this stuff for yourself. If you're too lazy and just want to deny what I'm saying, that's your own fault. P1 was eliminated because DP's are Grand Am's top class. There's only 3 P1's running in NA. But the funny part is, there's 0 LMP2's running. Read here bud, http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-new...-the-scenes-of-the-alms-grand-am-merger-38414. They want DP to be equalized with LMP2...? Wow, why not LMP1? There's more LMP1's than LMP2's in North America. Basically, all your rambling on is pointless. If you have doubts, then you need to start doing your own research like I've been saying.

 

[gtone339]

Lotus T128: 1st photo!

Eagerly awaited this season, the new Lotus T128 is being revealed gradually. After the digital creations (below), here is the first "real" photo of the monocoque. Although and LM P2, the fact that it meets the future rules for LM P1 (2014) gives better ergonomics than other "closed" cars (higher driver position and better visibility). Two examples of this car will be at the start of next 24 Hours of Le Mans.

source: http://www.24h-lemans.com/en/news/lotus-t128-1st-photo-_9831.html

 

[Snaeper]

Stop reaching. You're reading too much into things and setting yourself up for failure. I don't have to do the research for you. You have fingers that type, as evidenced by your reply. So you can go to google or bing or yahoo and do it yourself! It's really not hard to type in what I'm saying and find out all this stuff for yourself. If you're too lazy and just want to deny what I'm saying, that's your own fault. P1 was eliminated because DP's are Grand Am's top class. There's only 3 P1's running in NA. But the funny part is, there's 0 LMP2's running. Read here bud, http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-new...-the-scenes-of-the-alms-grand-am-merger-38414. They want DP to be equalized with LMP2...? Wow, why not LMP1? There's more LMP1's than LMP2's in North America. Basically, all your rambling on is pointless. If you have doubts, then you need to start doing your own research like I've been saying.

I've done my own research, and I've clearly come to a different conclusion than you have. Why do you assume I'm some ignorant sports car fan that only reads about Gran Turismo? I was following this merger like a hawk the second it was announced, I read every available website to glean every bit of new information about what was going on. Why am I supposed to continue to research?

To humor you, I googled "Why was LMP1 dropped from the merger" and I got a few pages mentioning it was dropped, but no reason why.

Since it doesn't seem like you want to give any effort to proving your point and instead label everything I say as reaching and telling me that I'm setting myself up for failure and need to do my research, I'm assuming that this argument is going nowhere.

And ultimately, it doesn't even matter. The racing is going to be fantastic. You can mourn the loss of P1, or you can get over it and enjoy good racing.

 

[cnd01]

I'm not arguing with you. I'm telling you the facts. DP is said to be sped up to LMP2 speeds because they're dropping LMP1. Why go beyond LMP2 if there's no need? Also, just because they call it a merger and include some of the cars doesn't mean they aren't taking over ALMS. The only connection they'll have with the ACO is GTE and possible LMP2. The main reason GTE was kept was because that's the bread and butter of ALMS, the most contested class with actual factory support. You're not going to kick Corvette, Viper, Ferrari and BMW out. You have to do your digging, and when you do you'll see that this is a buy out. ALMS as we know it now will not exist. They've kept some of the familiar faces, some of the workings, but that's it. It's going to be run by the people who run GA. Sebring, Road Atlanta etc. now belong to them. This information is available, I don't know why you haven't read about it. Its like any normal company acquiring another. They may keep on staff, business practice etc. but you're under new management and ownership. That's exactly what's happening here.

It's a good thing that Grand Am is taking over... ALMS wouldn't be a series in 5 years if they stayed separate. Don Panoz would have run out of money. It's more of a bailout than a buyout.

 

[hawkeye122]

Lotus T128: 1st photo!

source: http://www.24h-lemans.com/en/news/lotus-t128-1st-photo-_9831.html

Wow! That's really cool! Way better than arguing about something which is inevitable, and therefore not worth discussion.

 

[05XR8]

If anyone needs a timeout and lives in Oz, Motor Mate are showing History of the GT40

 

[freshseth83]

I've done my own research, and I've clearly come to a different conclusion than you have. Why do you assume I'm some ignorant sports car fan that only reads about Gran Turismo? I was following this merger like a hawk the second it was announced, I read every available website to glean every bit of new information about what was going on. Why am I supposed to continue to research?

To humor you, I googled "Why was LMP1 dropped from the merger" and I got a few pages mentioning it was dropped, but no reason why.

Since it doesn't seem like you want to give any effort to proving your point and instead label everything I say as reaching and telling me that I'm setting myself up for failure and need to do my research, I'm assuming that this argument is going nowhere.

And ultimately, it doesn't even matter. The racing is going to be fantastic. You can mourn the loss of P1, or you can get over it and enjoy good racing.

Mourn what loss? ALMS isn't my favorite series guy. How many times have I said that? I can't even count. I follow Toyota mostly, and they don't partake in ALMS. So the merger couldn't affect me. The only class in ALMS that's really appealing is GTE as that's where it's hotly contested. And they're keeping that because they want the connection to ACO. LMP2 is DP's target for performance. Why is this? Because it's a lot easier for them to get their DP top class up to that level of performance than LMP1. That would be near impossible. I then asked you, why shoot for LMP2 if there isn't even any LMP2 cars racing in N.A. at this time? This isn't a conspiracy as some think. It's more like they know there isn't LMP2 teams, there isn't LMP1 allowed, so logical choice is make/keep DP the top class, then say oh well there is a spot for LMP2 if they want to come, but it doesn't look likely they'll even be having LMP2 teams. 👍

 

[aarror]

Ahem, about those supposedly non-existent LMP2 cars...

ESM to ditch GT and field 2 P2 cars for 2013
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/exclusive-alms-esm-to-field-hpds-p2-class-revived/

While it may be a huge shock, it seems to be so that they will know the cars for 2014. It'll be nice to see the patron livery back on a Prototype, and hopefully this means level 5 will return so we can have a four car P2 fight.

 

[gogatrs]

Oh good lord.

Not them in an even faster class. It'll be a crash fest.


I hate ESM.

 

[hawkeye122]

Oh good lord.

Not them in an even faster class. It'll be a crash fest.

I hate ESM.

Probably didn't want to look like crap when Risi shows up in the same car and does well.

If only Conquest could return... Thanks a lot, Oak Racing.

So what are the chances of Dempsey getting to move up back to p2? Or even Black Swan, again.

 

[VspecZR1GT2RS89]

Wow! That's really cool! Way better than arguing about something which is inevitable, and therefore not worth discussion.

I know right? Let stop with these arguments. And that Lotus is nice, real rice 👍. I can't wait to see or hear about this monster on the track soon.

 

[Northstar]

I don't get how anyone can judge the Lotus, all it is is the cockpit...

Plus it being Lotus who knows if it will actually make Le Mans.

 

[Snaeper]

I wonder if ESM ditching the Ferrari's is a result of Risi coming back?

 

[freshseth83]

I don't get how anyone can judge the Lotus, all it is is the cockpit...

Plus it being Lotus who knows if it will actually make Le Mans.

That's not a cockpit, it's a monocoque! That means the main part of the car is ready. All the car revolves around that, so I've no doubt they'll make it. Check this out- We may be getting used to this in less than a year

 

[01GTP]

That's not a cockpit, it's a monocoque!

Is your glass half empty all the time!

Check this out- We may be getting used to this in less than a year

We, as in if we're invited?

These events happen more than you may think.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Or am I missing something here?

Supported by Premium Partner Crowne Plaza Hotels & Resorts, guests from around the world were given the opportunity to inspect the BMW Z4 GTE at close hand, talk to those responsible for the team, and experience the iconic racetrack in Florida from the cockpit, courtesy of taxi rides with the BMW ALMS drivers

If only Conquest could return...

They are but are not sure which class.

http://www.motorsport.com/alms/news/conquest-racing-to-focus-on-sportscar-program-for-2013/