The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

R0ssingt0n
From what I remember you're right. Or was it 8 sectors where the cars could harvest the energy?

And i completely agree with you cnd, i hate the whole kers and drs thing... but thats for another thread. As long as drs doesnt find its way into sports car racing im happy.

I like watching drivers race and pass by skill and not push to pass. I like it more on ovals than road courses.
 
cnd01
I like watching drivers race and pass by skill and not push to pass. I like it more on ovals than road courses.

Which is why you'll always see me talk about how much I love sportscar racing and how much I dislike Formula 1.
 
R0ssingt0n
From what I remember you're right. Or was it 8 sectors where the cars could harvest the energy?

Having looked, it was 7 sectors of harvesting, and no more than 500KJ use between each sector. Not quite push to pass, but still an advantage over the private P1 cars and the R18 Ultra at least. It's good as long as it doesn't have too much of an affect, as in F1.
 
Emptyone
Having looked, it was 7 sectors of harvesting, and no more than 500KJ use between each sector. Not quite push to pass, but still an advantage over the private P1 cars and the R18 Ultra at least. It's good as long as it doesn't have too much of an affect, as in F1.

I think the ACO would rather the hybrids have a slight advantage so it encourages other teams into going down the hybrid route. I could be completely wrong though. And yeah full blown push to pass is a joke in my opinion. It should be drive the car with skill to pass... in other words actually race!
 
R0ssingt0n
I think the ACO would rather the hybrids have a slight advantage so it encourages other teams into going down the hybrid route. I could be completely wrong though. And yeah full blown push to pass is a joke in my opinion. It should be drive the car with skill to pass... in other words actually race!

The ACO would definitely want to convince the rest of the teams of the hybrid route, as it would like to appear forward thinking and in keeping with the times.

The great thing about GT is that equality that requires skill to pass and race. Much more entertaining than most of F1 indeed.
 
Emptyone
The ACO would definitely want to convince the rest of the teams of the hybrid route, as it would like to appear forward thinking and in keeping with the times.

The great thing about GT is that equality that requires skill to pass and race. Much more entertaining than most of F1 indeed.

I don't like f1 as much as sports cars either. The cars are too flemzy. Any contact utterly obliterates an F1 car.

I do envy alms for their gt classes. I don't like tube frame chassis. Ferrari and Audi aren't tube frame. Neither is Porsche. Mazda, M3, and Camaro are the tumors that have tube frame chassis. The corvette and viper that race aren't tube either.
 
P1 isn't cutting edge. No drs or kers for starters. It's more technologically advanced than DP, but that technology comes with a high price tag.

But you get what I'm saying though. Technology isn't necessary to make good racing.
 
RACECAR
But you get what I'm saying though. Technology isn't necessary to make good racing.

I totally agree. I can go to the local dirt track tomorrow night and see good racing.
 
First off there is no 'push to pass' in LMP1. That needs to be put to bed. The hybrid power is activated by the accelerator pedal, not by a button. If you paid attention to LMP regulations you would know that. There's no ABS in LMP either. Traction control is the only driving 'aid' there is. F1 has DRS zones and KERS buttons. Don't get it confused. Toyota's hybrid is rear wheel drive so it can be activated immediately at any speed. Audi's is FWD (AWD) so it can only be activated at 120kmh+. And they can drive the entire pit lane on electric power alone. The future is hybrid power, not spec V8s.

Good racing can be found anywhere. But technology that's years ahead of whats on the street can not. If someone prefers DP's that's great. But I don't. Especially when a GT1 Corvette from 8 years ago is just as fast with 100kg more weight. I don't enjoy watching the same kind of car race around. That's Nascar, but in sportscar racing- that's not what appeals to me. It's an issue with Grand Am right now. You can argue about it all you want, but it's the truth and they recognize this. That's why they have a 'Corvette DP'. And are open to manufacturers making 'DPs'. Hopefully "the future" as they call it is more open and they have some relevant technology and world class racing cars. That's all I could hope for.
 
Technology kills series that aren't f1. That's why the good ol gtp days came to an end. It became a spending war for technology and development.
 
The problem with le mans is that there is no real racing in the prototype classes. If you have a lmp car from last year or 2 years ago your probably going to be off pace. Now there are exceptions to this but generally with the 24hours of le mans your just watching to see if audi or toyota breaks down first. I would rather watch Rolex than le mans if it didnt have the GT classes.
 
But technology that's years ahead of whats on the street can not

With exception of some of the hybrid things(that probably won't make it onto most dailies), most "cutting edge" things on the R18 and Toyota have been on road cars for some time. The days where things debuted at Le Mans are over, it's the other way now.

they have some relevant technology

What exactly do you define as "relevant"?

I swear I asked this before and got no response, not that shocking though.
 
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What exactly do you define as "relevant"?

I swear I asked this before and got no response, not that shocking though.

Production engine blocks for one thing, and production chassis for the GT cars. Audi has used the LMP1 program to help make their TDi engines the most reliable and efficient diesel engines on the market. They used their motosport program to develop the TFSi (Turbo fuel Stratified injection) engine, and they debuted a carbon fiber gearbox housing on last years R18, expected to go into road production with the new R8 in 2014. The cars run on electric power in the pitlane as well, and recover energy from braking to be reused by the engine. (Similar to KERS, but not in the form of a power boost) From 2014 cars will be situated only a certain amount of fuel, so engines will need to be super efficient in order to run fuel at a rich setting without using to much. Fuel consumption will be reduced by around 30%. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100351
That seems pretty relevant to me.

And don't bother bringing up GT, ALMS GT produces better racing and more exciting cars.

DP's may produce decent racing, but the fact that it is artificial (BOP) taints it for me. I like the teams to be rewarded for making a fast car, not punished for working hard to get that extra few tenths.
 
Technology kills series that aren't f1. That's why the good ol gtp days came to an end. It became a spending war for technology and development.
It actually doesn't. Budget restrictions are a solution to spending wars. I'm not amongst the crowd that wants to follow a BOP spec series. When they open up DP and actual manufacturer involvement is there, that'll be great.
The problem with le mans is that there is no real racing in the prototype classes. If you have a lmp car from last year or 2 years ago your probably going to be off pace. Now there are exceptions to this but generally with the 24hours of le mans your just watching to see if audi or toyota breaks down first. I would rather watch Rolex than le mans if it didnt have the GT classes.

:confused: Toyota's first race was LeMans last year. If you watched the WEC or ILMC or previous LeMans at all, there were spectacular races. And through the first 6 hours of LeMans last year, there was plenty of action in all the classes. That's just a quarter of the race. I suggest you watch this-

 
Technology kills series that aren't f1. That's why the good ol gtp days came to an end. It became a spending war for technology and development.


No, bad sanctioning bobies kill series. When the sanctioning body let's the manufacturers go crazy on the spending it get real ugly real fast and the paddock empties.
Technology is essential to racing as new concepts are responsably developed to find the edge it'll always make the machine more efficient and it eventually comes down the production lines.
Spec racing with heavy outdated machinery and 30 year old huge inefficient egines does nothing for this!
Racing is raw sience, it always has been and it always shold be! We need it now nore than we ever did!
 
Le Mans has always been more a test of a car rather than a driver. The whole point of it is who can build the fastest and most reliable car. Bringing over DPs would destroy the essence of Le Mans.

Sure Grand-am provides closer wheel-to-wheel racing. But Le Mans provides more strategic racing where those that are racing aren't necessarily sharing the same piece of tarmac. 👍
 
Audi has used the LMP1 program to help make their TDi engines the most reliable and efficient diesel engines on the market.

Is it because the LMP program or the millions spend in R&D for road cars though? I have a hard time believing things like that wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the race team. The major car companies have insanely huge R&D departments, some have their own testing facilities as well(VAG is one of them). Le Mans is little more than a marketing campaign for new technology these days.

They used their motosport program to develop the TFSi (Turbo fuel Stratified injection) engine,

See above...

and they debuted a carbon fiber gearbox housing on last years R18, expected to go into road production with the new R8 in 2014.

I don't see it having a realistic application on normal cars though, which is what were talking about(I think). Same thing with carbon fiber bodies, they may work for high end sports/super cars but don't really have much use on an average daily driver.

The cars run on electric power in the pitlane as well, and recover energy from braking to be reused by the engine. (Similar to KERS, but not in the form of a power boost)

I'll admit I'm not extremely familiar with exactly how it works, but I can't imagine much energy getting stored from daily driving.

From 2014 cars will be situated only a certain amount of fuel, so engines will need to be super efficient in order to run fuel at a rich setting without using to much. Fuel consumption will be reduced by around 30%. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100351
That seems pretty relevant to me.

Relevant to what though?

Fuel efficiency on road cars? There have been fuel efficient cars on the roads for decades now.

Getting high fuel economy with less gas? See my response to the first quite.

And don't bother bringing up GT, ALMS GT produces better racing and more exciting cars. .

Why would I? It's really the only saving grace of American sports car racing currently.
 
The difference between those decades was that cars barely weighed anything back then than to today's cars. I doubt a Honda Accord from 1988 has navi, heated seats, and actual leather. It's amazing they are achieving the EPA mileage of the 80s with almost double the weight on average. Safety features also have a huge part as well to the portliness.

And a lot of the R/D folk have a hand in the racing department. Afterall if Audi said Le Mans is their proving ground for tech, then I'll take their word for it.

Germans don't play around when they are spending hundreds of millions of deutchemarks on racing.
 
One big thing people seem to ignore in the name of "close racing" is the annoying amount of yellows they throw to manipulate everything!! Throw the wave arounds and sure you'll get "close racing" in any series, even F1!
 
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Is it because the LMP program or the millions spend in R&D for road cars though? I have a hard time believing things like that wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the race team. The major car companies have insanely huge R&D departments, some have their own testing facilities as well(VAG is one of them). Le Mans is little more than a marketing campaign for new technology these days.



See above...



I don't see it having a realistic application on normal cars though, which is what were talking about(I think). Same thing with carbon fiber bodies, they may work for high end sports/super cars but don't really have much use on an average daily driver.



I'll admit I'm not extremely familiar with exactly how it works, but I can't imagine much energy getting stored from daily driving.



Relevant to what though?

Fuel efficiency on road cars? There have been fuel efficient cars on the roads for decades now.

Getting high fuel economy with less gas? See my response to the first quite.



Why would I? It's really the only saving grace of American sports car racing currently.

I don't know how to multi quote, so bear with me here.

Yes the engine would probably have been developed by VW's extensive research team, and yes Le Mans is basically a huge marketing excersice, but that doesn't discount the fact that it is still road relevant technology in a racecar, which was your question, right?

The carbon gearbox cover is more to disprove your "The days when things debuted at le mans is over" quote, although this is only 1 small inovation.

The energy recovery system has a lot of potential, but it needs to be much more refined before it can harness enough energy from regular driving to be of any use in a road car. It is very much a work in progress, although both Audi and Toyota will probably use some form of it on their next halo cars.

I'm no engineer, and I have never worked on an LMP1 team so I don't know any more than I have read. I'm not sure how the fuel efficiency transfers over to road cars, but I'm sure they take the data of a 24 hour run and can gain some valuable info from that. You asked how LMP1 cars are relevant to road cars, and I answered. Not much more I can tell you with my limited knowledge on the subject.
 
LeMans 2011, the race was won by 13.8 seconds!! No manipulation of the yellow flags, no wave arounds and 3 different safety cars so there's no bunching up of the cars either! That is close racing, that's the true escense of racing, not a "24" hour race that every year seem to boil down to the almost mandatory yellow with 40 minutes to go.
 
To be fair, Le Mans 2011 had its fair share of safety cars. Its actually what let Audi back into the race for the win, as it kept negating Peugeot's fuel mileage advantage.

As for the Grand Am DP vs Le Mans prototype argument, theres no question the LMP is the better car, for many reasons. But with the WEC forming its going to be very hard if not impossible to make a factory LMP1 team choose to run the ALMS or ELMS over the WEC. Thats why the class is being dropped next year.

So in reality there never was a LMP1 vs DP battle. The closest thing is LMP2 vs DP. At this point I choose DP over LMP2. LMP2 is a class mostly for privateers. The cars usually lack the space age looks of LMP1. So I think DP will be better once they speed them up with carbon brakes, michilen tires, more power, etc.
 
Le Mans is little more than a marketing campaign for new technology these days.
...

Nope.
I watched an interview with Wolfgang Ulrich (Head of Audi Sport) and he said the reason why Audi takes part in Le Mans, and not Formula one, is because it has relevance to Audi's road cars. The LED lights are a good example of this. Le Mans is a perfect place to test lights for road cars, if they'll do a good job travelling 200mph plus then they'll be fine on a road car. To be honest motorsport in general is one of the best ways to test components for road going cars.
 
Lets be honest here, racing isnt as relevant to road cars as it once use to be. It's becoming much more and more entertainment based.

The Delta Wing says half the weight, half the power, and the same speed. But really is that a principle the automotive community doesnt already know about? Unique, aero efficient shapes like teardrops etc have already been played with by automakers. The delta wing dosent appear to provide adequate safety or room for passengers.

The point is, if they were serious about making racing more about developing technology that could help road cars they should start by banning all wings as they mean nothing for a road car. I know they claim LMP1 prototypes are "two seaters" but make them REAL two seaters. The 2nd seat should be able to be occupied by a full grown man at any moment, safely. Add rules where the cars must be road legal, that if they wanted to they could drive off the Le Mans circuit and on to the public roads.

I guarantee you Corvette is learning way more about helping their road cars with their GT program then Audi is with their LMP1. That big grill on the front of the C6? The racing guys asked for that.

I think DPs get an unfair bad rap. They're only 'slow' as they are because they're restricted to that.

Someone complained about a DP running lap times slower then a Corvette GT1 from 8 years ago. Big Deal. Formula 1 cars are lapping 2 seconds or so slower then they did 8 years ago. DPs are 6 or so seconds faster then the GT cars they race with, so theres little reason for them to be much faster, right now. Next year they'll have to be faster because of the GTE class and LMP2 and LMPC cars.
 
That Delta Wing was not so much convincing engineers about the promises of lean aero and light weight design, but to show to the public that power is not always necessary to make a fast and efficient cars. And that car was plenty safe. In fact, it was the onus on the other drivers to keep an extra eye on that car through the mirrors. If it was able to do several hours safely, then 24 hours shouldn't be an issue.

Besides, car companies besides Audi do not race just because it is fun, they do it because the it helps keep them on their toes when it comes to tech advancement. And what better way to showcase than beating your rivals at the track with it?
 
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To be fair, Le Mans 2011 had its fair share of safety cars. Its actually what let Audi back into the race for the win, as it kept negating Peugeot's fuel mileage advantage.
Yes, it did have an unusual amount of safety cars about 5 in the whole 24 hr race! Lol!! And the last one was deep in the night hours IIRC, at least the last 6 hrs of the race were ran on a green flag with real fierce racing!
A normal 2hr GA race sees more yellows than that and their 24 hr race always seems to magically find a yellow on the last stint and yet sometimes the margin of victory is about half of LM 2011's.

And yes, the days where the tech used on LM would go straight to the production line the following year are gone. Only because of the way manufacturers do business this days(which is the most efficient for their purposes), the tech we see today on the track we won't see on the road for the next 6-8 years, that's just the way the industry works!
 
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Flipping through some news, Scott Elkins claims that Greaves Motorsport will be at Sebring.

What for? Unless they've spoken to someone and know that they'll have someone to race against. Level 5 in 2011 by themselves was one thing (A test session for their ILMC/LE Mans) but Greaves has to actually ship the car over. That would seem to be a massive waste of money, on account of theres no ELMS or WEC points up for grabs.



Also,
On March 14th they will announce the 2014 series' name and class names.

And,
Risi has the first-seen 2013-spec Ferrari 458. The front looks a bit different
1125285_article_img_large2.jpg


Brian Alder(BAR1) has come out and ruled out any possibility of running a rented Oreca 03, because theres no competition. So it looks like if he and Scott Tucker had sat down and talked, there COULD have been a P2 class.
However, Speedtv.com reckons there could be as many as 4 LMP2 entries for Sebring.
 
And,
Risi has the first-seen 2013-spec Ferrari 458. The front looks a bit different
1125285_article_img_large2.jpg

Yup, new aero kit for the 458 GTE/GT2. The new 'split' front splitter is provided by Michelotto. Also a "pitstop releasing mode" (the engine automatically starts when the air jacks are dropped) has been fitted. Quite interesting. One of l'endurance's photographers (Nick Busato) has got a great shot of the car - Link.
 
^Nick did that? Nice, he's from around my neck of the woods, great guy, he's help me improve my own racing photography quite a lot. Really great photographer too.. :)
 
Tweet from
BMWUSA Motorsport ‏@BMWUSARacing
Next Tuesday BMW Team RLL will present the new #BMW Z4 GTE + the driver pairings to the media @DISupdates. Stay tuned for the 1st pics!
 
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