The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

gogatrs
Having gone to both the Grand Am and ALMS events at Lime Rock in the same year, they both are better for different reasons.
The grand am event had a LOT of people there. But most of those people couldn't tell the Riley from the Corvette. Most of them were sitting in their pick up trucks, sipping adult beverages.
We parked next to one group of people that didn't leave their pick up for the entire day.

The atmosphere is much better at the ALMS race. Everyone seems to have an idea of what is going on and can identify and appreciate certain elements of the race. They know a good pass when they see one and get disgusted, not excited when someone crashes into someone else.
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And both have a better atmosphere than NASCAR, just saying.. :scared:
 
Mac K
And both have a better atmosphere than NASCAR, just saying.. :scared:
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Yep. I find the beer drinkers at grand am events hilarious. I would say 30% have no clue what's going on. That's just a wild guess. I don't usually hang around that crowd. I've never been to an alms race, so I have no clue what the atmosphere is. The grand am atmosphere is fun. There were a crapton of people at the Rolex 24 this year.
 
Wow! Seriously? We have a troll on the thread? what's the point of all of this? Racing on today's economy is an ever changing eviroment with regards to participation, how many Prototurtles where supposed to be running full time for the past 4 seasons and how many actually did?
Why would the teams spend 50,000 dollars on a test they don't feel they need?
Seriously, are you doing some type of school project on demographics? If that's the case we'll be more than happy to help you out! If not just quit being anoying!
 
I don't care for the ALMS vs. GA bickering. I don't pick which one is better. To me, they both suck right now in the Prototype class. There's two full time entries in LMP1 in ALMS, and GA has DP cars that don't excite me and are surpassed by GT cars from a decade ago. I don't think racing should be spec in almost all areas. That's why I favor LMP over DP. It's my preference and I could care less about the #s on the grid. In reality I watch the ALMS GTE, WEC (previously ILMC) and Super GT. Those cars excite me and the speed of them are awesome.
 
Jav
Wow! Seriously? We have a troll on the thread? what's the point of all of this? Racing on today's economy is an ever changing eviroment with regards to participation, how many Prototurtles where supposed to be running full time for the past 4 seasons and how many actually did?
Why would the teams spend 50,000 dollars on a test they don't feel they need?
Seriously, are you doing some type of school project on demographics? If that's the case we'll be more than happy to help you out! If not just quit being anoying!
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I'm trying to get acquainted with my fellow fans for next year. I haven't been following the ALMS a whole lot especially since Audi pulled out, so out of curiosity I looked at the first Sebring test. I was shocked when they only had 15 cars entered. I come from a Grand-Am background where 90%+ of teams participate in the Daytona test year in and year out even though the DP or GT class hasn't had a major change in 10 years now.

As to the "prototurtle" statement, I hear that a lot from ALMS fans. Have you ever been to a "prototurtle" race? Have you heard the exhaust note from the V8 "prototurtle"? Have you seen all the close racing and passing that happens? Have you ever walked through a Rolex series garage? I was very skeptical of the "prototurtle" when I first saw it back in 03. There are 18 different "prototurtles" that will compete after COTA. The economy sucks, so it's not like Rolex is peaking in numbers either./rant. (prototurtle.... That word will make hardcore Rolex fans like myself make the merger even harder on you guys)

DP is a 200 mph touring car. It's meant to be raced side by side. I know that's a hard concept to grasp when you guys have enjoyed looking at the body curves of the LMP. I'm planning on watching the entire Sebring race this year on TV to try to see the good in the LMP. Give DP a shot at COTA. It will be a close race. The same guy that does ALMS rules is doing the Rolex series rules this year, so it won't be a destruction derby. I hope for 50+ cars in all the ALMS races because I enjoy large grid sizes(I'm sure everyone here does:P) I know the more cars ALMS can get, the more the merged series will have next year. Let's get excited about finally getting a unified sports car series in America.
 
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How can we be excited when you're telling us that when the merger happens, you're going to make it harder on people who watch the ALMS?
 
On the ALMS vs Grand Am debate, this is how I see it.

DP is a 10 year old design, meant for close racing. Fans like close racing. Prototypes are cutting edge with modern technology, but that inovation leaves some teams in the dust, and makes for smaller fields as it is more difficult to be competetive.

In GAGT you have tube framed GT cars, with little/nothing to do with their roadcar counterparts minus the (highly modified) engine, with a BOP to artificially equal the cars, with varying levels of sucess. In ALMS GT you have production based cars, with production chassis and engine blocks, and are fitted with technology relevant to roadcars. Again, it is more difficult to be competetive, but it has also produced arguably the best racing in the last 10 years or so.

Personally, I prefer the genuine racing and relevant technologies of ALMS, after all, the point of racing is to demonstrate why your cars are better, and to do that you need real technology.
However, I can understand why some would prefer the close (although artificial) racing of Grand Am. Watching 10 cars battle for the lead is more exciting than watching 3 cars battle for the lead, and that is what Grand Am has to offer that makes it attractive for the casual fan.

Edit: And like it or not, the merger has killed any hopes of LMP racers in North America. Since Nascar bought ALMS, the LMPs would be slower down, making them rather pointless since the point of a racecar is to go as fast as possible. Why would a team spend money on a car that will be irrelivent next year? That is why ALMS testing had so few cars.
 
cnd01
As to the "prototurtle" statement, I hear that a lot from ALMS fans. Have you ever been to a "prototurtle" race? Have you heard the exhaust note from the V8 "prototurtle"? Have you seen all the close racing and passing that happens? Have you ever walked through a Rolex series garage? I was very skeptical of the "prototurtle" when I first saw it back in 03. There are 18 different "prototurtles" that will compete after COTA. The economy sucks, so it's not like Rolex is peaking in numbers either./rant. (prototurtle.... That word will make hardcore Rolex fans like myself make the merger even harder on you guys)
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Yes to all of your questions, I'm 34 and have been involved in motorsports since I was 9, be it in Karts, crewing for different cars from SS classes to old Trans Am dinosaurs to WC-T and T1 cars. I've raced in some of those classes too and have had my own IT-A car. I've served from being a volunteer to being race director for my local Club for 2 years so yeah! I've seen them all, being on them all and know a little something about them!
I am first a car guy and not a fanboy of any type of racing or car, if it's loud somewhat fast and exiting I like it! Spec racing disguised as Pro racing has never been an interest of mine but I do enjoy the racing and still respect the guys who do it and the ones that care for it.
Hope I answered your questions.
Now please take your annoying little comments elsewhere!!
 
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DP's are called prototypes, not touring cars. Truthfully, they don't hit home to many fans. Most of the cars look exactly alike and are only distinguishable or separated by their liveries. That's basically Nascar on road courses but with a different shape to the cars. Sure the new Vette DP is cool, but the C6.R actually looks like a real corvette, and people know what it is right off the bat. The racing in DP may be good, but to me it's boring.
 
Nice! I love seeing the addition of new teams to both series before the merger, should be a great swan song for both. Having been to numerous Grand-Am and ALMS events, I can say for the most part (when Grand-Am isn't with NASCAR mind you) that both have a similar atmosphere. How anyone can dislike or find either one bad, boring, etc makes no sense to me. People are still a bit skeptical about DP's and I can understand that, when they first came out they were a bit "odd". My first Grand-Am event was one of the last races for the Gen 2 DP, I thought they were ugly but after seeing them in person I quickly changed my mind. The racing in both classes was fantastic, and isn't that what we want out of sports car racing? Good, close racing? I was into the ALMS since the C5-R was around but never went to a race until
2010, that was also my first major race I'd ever bee to (Mosport). That too was fantastic racing, especially in the GT class, Porsche, Corvette, Ferrari, Jaguar, Ford GT, i'm salivating just typing this. Like I said, I'm a huge fan of both series now and will be attending a few race weekends this summer. You're all entitled to your opinion, but the whole Grand-Am vs ALMS thing needs to stop, we're all racing fans, and more specifically sports car racing fans at the end of the day, so can't we all just appreciate the sport, get along and be friends..? :)
 
I don't really understand the negativity shown toward both series either, as pretty much stated above. Surely close, entertaining racing is key, however it's achieved.
 
hawkeye122
How can we be excited when you're telling us that when the merger happens, you're going to make it harder on people who watch the ALMS?
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Not all alms fans, the ones who call the DP a "prototurtle"
 
People never fail to disappoint. I knew this debate would eventually happen. Mergers always create issues. I remember when Champ and Indy combined. "Too many road courses," "Not enough road courses," "Street courses?"

The fact is one side will get somewhat disenfranchised in any merger like this. The fact is that the financial necessity of leagues surviving means things like this will occur. What these racing leagues have yet to realize is that Motorsport fans can be passionate. ALMS fans may be more interested in the engineering achievements than artificially making the races close. If LMP, as we know it won't exist in the US anymore then those fans might not transition to GA. And what the leagues also miss is that broadcast technology is getting less and less local. I would guess that we are ten years away from being able to watch nearly any televised event from anywhere in the world. We can do it yodau, but nit legally. ESPN and Speed have played with this and as technology improves it will be more inclusive.

So as these two merge you may find ALMS fans attempting to transition, but if it is too different they will drift away. If they find they can easily watch Le Mans racing from Europe then they will go that way. Similarly, we may find less drivers that ALMS fans are familiar with showing up.

I'm not sure how this will play out, but I am sure that not all ALMS fans will be tuning in to Grand Am next year. And they may not need to.

But whatever happens, debating over who/what is better will occur.
 
hawkeye122
Why make it hard at all? Why not just go about your business?
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Why not call the DP by its actual name? I don't go around calling the LMP names. I like both, but I prefer DP. DP might end up in Le Mans next year. It's not guarenteed, but if the France family has any say, it will be there. My bet is that there are more garages opened for a DP class. Either that or they will replace the LMP2 with DP in the years to come. I'd rather see more garages open because I want more cars on the track. LMP2 has a place at Le Mans because there are a pretty good amount of them racing in Europe.
 
cnd01
Why not call the DP by its actual name? I don't go around calling the LMP names. I like both, but I prefer DP. DP might end up in Le Mans next year. It's not guarenteed, but if the France family has any say, it will be there. My bet is that there are more garages opened for a DP class. Either that or they will replace the LMP2 with DP in the years to come. I'd rather see more garages open because I want more cars on the track. LMP2 has a place at Le Mans because there are a pretty good amount of them racing in Europe.
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The France family has no position in decision making within the FIA or ACO
 
cnd01
He has necessary funds to persuade said fia and aco :lol:
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The France's family money is not relevant for the FIA, and in any case the FIA has litle say on the ACO side of things (thankfuly).

I'd say the France family would be more important to the ACO (and the current FIA) if they were actually ... French! :lol:
 
Hun200kmh
The France's family money is not relevant for the FIA, and in any case the FIA has litle say on the ACO side of things (thankfuly).

I'd say the France family would be more important to the ACO (and the current FIA) if they were actually ... French! :lol:
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It's a possibility. If the France family writes a big enough check, the DP will be there regardless of what the aco stands for. It would be a big advantage if the France family was French :lol:
 
R0ssingt0n
I highly doubt it, the ACO (a french organisation) aren't going to let money influence their decisions for Le Mans... A french race.
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If DP shows up in Europe, they will be in Le mans. I don't know if DP will make it overseas though.
 
I wouldn't be shocked if DP's showed up at Le Mans. It wouldn't be the first time something NASCAR was there either.

127264d1357218622-americans-paris-nascar-goes-le-mans-c12_0606_02z-herschel_mcgriff_dodge_charger-front_view.jpg

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I'm not so sure its the France Family so much as it is the guys incharge of Grand-Am talking to the ACO/FIA (remember, its Jim France thats the Sportscar enthusiast and thats running things, not everyone else) . Seems like theirs nothing but negativity towards the possibility of a DP at Le Mans. You guys remember when Jean Todt came to Grand-Am, visited some events and the FIA started talking with Grand-Am? Look at how that work out: GT3 Ferraris and Audis (abit different but made to be easily converted). I'm optimistic that this could work out well and quite frankly don't see anything wrong with it happening, so what if they aren't "cutting edge" like P1 cars? I can name many series where you don't need technology to make good racing.
 
RACECAR
I'm not so sure its the France Family so much as it is the guys incharge of Grand-Am talking to the ACO/FIA (remember, its Jim France thats the Sportscar enthusiast and thats running things, not everyone else) . Seems like theirs nothing but negativity towards the possibility of a DP at Le Mans. You guys remember when Jean Todt came to Grand-Am, visited some events and the FIA started talking with Grand-Am? Look at how that work out: GT3 Ferraris and Audis (abit different but made to be easily converted). I'm optimistic that this could work out well and quite frankly don't see anything wrong with it happening, so what if they aren't "cutting edge" like P1 cars? I can name many series where you don't need technology to make good racing.
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P1 isn't cutting edge. No drs or kers for starters. It's more technologically advanced than DP, but that technology comes with a high price tag.
 
cnd01
P1 isn't cutting edge. No drs or kers for starters. It's more technologically advanced than DP, but that technology comes with a high price tag.
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No DRS or Kers is a good thing! Well technically the Hybrids have a variant of kers but it isnt push to pass. The extra power comes at a certain point that the driver doesn't control (I think)
 
R0ssingt0n
No DRS or Kers is a good thing! Well technically the Hybrids have a variant of kers but it isnt push to pass. The extra power comes at a certain point that the driver doesn't control (I think)
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Le Mans I think there were 8 sectors last year where the P1 cars could deploy kers, and Audi couldn't use it until 120kph. Toyota was less than that. Not quite the F1 variant.
 
R0ssingt0n
No DRS or Kers is a good thing! Well technically the Hybrids have a variant of kers but it isnt push to pass. The extra power comes at a certain point that the driver doesn't control (I think)
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I could argue the same for DP that it has no tc. It is technology that's not necessary. Kers and drs are easy ways to pass. Tc is an easy way to corner. I don't like technology that makes the drivers job easier. I think the drivers need to drive the car without computer assistance.
 
Emptyone
Le Mans I think there were 8 sectors last year where the P1 cars could deploy kers, and Audi couldn't use it until 120kph. Toyota was less than that. Not quite the F1 variant.
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From what I remember you're right. Or was it 8 sectors where the cars could harvest the energy?

And i completely agree with you cnd, i hate the whole kers and drs thing... but thats for another thread. As long as drs doesnt find its way into sports car racing im happy.
 

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