The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

[Ardius]

With all prototype series like F1, there will always be a danger.

The danger shouldn't be flipping though. Yes, motorsport is dangerous but certain aspects of the danger don't have to exist.

 

[RUFin]

After seeing this years race,Im so sad!I guess Sony is out of money because all I could see was FORZA curves and corners!Just like GTs online,new era is rising.Is there a way out off this missery?YES,quit GT.-> my worst nightmare [its in line with those newest Sony employes sackings] -one who knows - edit:and Allan McNish(twice,this and last yearXD),almost like Jr.

 

[MustangManiac]

I'm not so sure. The flips before and after the fins seem similar. They sure haven't improved the situation, thats for sure.



I realise that in theory it should work. But I just wonder how much research was actually done into the effectiveness of these fins.
NASCAR is a whole different beast in my opinion, while the aero is important, its not the same as LMP. What helps one doesn't necessarily help the other.

Lets also be fair and point out that people can make mistakes. They could have done all the research and simulation in the world but the concept can never really be proved until its put into the real world. As long as they accept they still need to work on it then its ok.

All true, I have no idea what kind of testing FIA/ACO does or how, sim, real world or what. I still think the flaps on the flat surfaces might be worth looking in to. maybe they have and found it not feasable or non functional for this class of racing. I saw that they just released the new regs recently, but I have not had time to check them in depth, too busy watching LaMans All I have read was the new energy recovery section, I will have to check and see what has been done to address this problem.

 

[RACECAR]

I'm not so sure. The flips before and after the fins seem similar. They sure haven't improved the situation, thats for sure.

Well I've also proposed the possibility that the bottoms might also be contributing.

Notice the bottom of the side is squared and even has somewhat of a sideblade that goes from end to end. Like this, Air can't get underneith the car because that keeps the air above it.

Years later, the bottom of that side now has a round curve that leads underneith and has no way of keeping air from going under it.

 

[Robin]

Quite a somber video... you can see what it really meant to him.

 

[sumbrownkid]

After seeing this years race,Im so sad!I guess Sony is out of money because all I could see was FORZA curves and corners!Just like GTs online,new era is rising.Is there a way out off this missery?YES,quit GT.-> my worst nightmare [its in line with those newest Sony employes sackings] -one who knows - edit:and Allan McNish(twice,this and last yearXD),almost like Jr.

Gran Turismo and Sony have been sponsoring Le Mans for years now. I doubt one race's sponsorship fees is too exorbitant for an ailing Sony. That said, Sony has to trim the fat somewhere in the meantime, and looks like sponsorship in one of those trimmed pieces.

Besides, it's not the gaming division of Sony that's hurting, it's everything else.

Since when did "leading at one point" count for anything? I thought what matters is who's leading at the FINISH, no???

Toyota themselves said they didn't expect outright victory in their first year out. A poorly driven Ferrari, and reliability costed them, but that's not unexpected for brand new cars that weren't tested as much as their Audi rivals.

In terms of speed, they were right there along with Audi, if not a just a step back.

Using the WEC season as their test bed, and counting on Ferrari not having terrible gentleman drivers, I'm confident Toyota can come back with an even stronger package.

 

[Desmo46]

Quite a somber video... you can see what it really meant to him.

Did everything possible to get the car going again. Shame really it didn't finish.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Damn didn't realize how angry people were that Forza had banners and sponsored this race, after all they do have a closer relationship with the Le Mans series(atleast here in America), you can tell this just by looking at the car lineup in that game, R18s, ZR1 GT2s, 458s, Peugeut 908s, basically most of the updated grid in the series.

For me it made no sense having GT sponsor Le Mans, and have absolutely no cars in their
game.



Also, on another note, the Toyotas could have been top 10, if not won the race if they hadn't had bad luck in terms of crashing, once that Ferrari hit him, I had the feeling we were out.
Good win on Audi's part, they didnt have the perfect race either, but still managed that amazing finish.

 

[Furinkazen]

Well I've also proposed the possibility that the bottoms might also be contributing.

Notice the bottom of the side is squared and even has somewhat of a sideblade that goes from end to end. Like this, Air can't get underneith the car because that keeps the air above it.

Years later, the bottom of that side now has a round curve that leads underneith and has no way of keeping air from going under it.

I also believe that the fact the cars are roofed has something to do with it. A roof shape is so much more aerodynamic and enables air to slip over easier. Yet cars are going to be roofed from now on for safety.

Also as for the comments about flat bottoms, the Nissan had a flat side fin, in fact the whole bottom of the car is smooth. Of course again this car is a coupe and takes off like a rocket, though a puncture has to do with this one.



Also pointing at these


Yet also of course we have a history of open top LMP's behaving the same.


As for NASCAR comparisons... these car are nearly half the weight of a NASCAR, so they will fly easier.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Perhaps ground effect underbodies would help out.

It does seem to be a flat bottom issue.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I don't think ground effects would do much. They might suck the car downwards, but that doesn't mean that the car cannot become airborne at all. It's a question of physics - the wrong amount of force applied in the wrong direction at the wrong time will send a car airborne, regardless of how the car is designed to prevent this.

 

[gtone339]

LOTUS LMP2 WITH NEW PROJECT IN 2013 -

link:http://www.lotus-lmp2.com/en/news/91-lotus-lmp2-with-new-project-in-2013.html

Lotus LMP2 is working with united forces in developing its own Lotus LMP car that will initially run in the LMP2 class. The next step will be the development of a new LMP1 car.

Kodewa, that is running two Lotus LMP2 cars in the 2012 FIA World Endurance Championship, has ordered the development of the new chassis.

For teams that will be running the new Lotus LMP2 in the 2013 season for the first time, besides the support with spare parts at the race track, service packages for maintenance of spare parts will also be made available. Additionally, an engineering and simulation package will be offered to Lotus LMP2 customers.


The Lotus LMP2 will be a state of the art car in terms of aerodynamics and monocoque design, employing the latest designs and technologies.

The technical development is in the hands of Adess AG, a design office in Munich. The engineers of Advanced Design Engineering Systems Solutions AG bring a lot of experience from their work in Formula 1 and LMP1 sports cars. They work closely with James Key, one of the most successful Technical Directors in Formula 1 on cars design and specification.

Responsible for the stylistic elements and livery is once again Car Concept Designer Daniel Simon, a real futurist amongst car designers. Simon, who lives in Los Angeles, used to work as Senior Concept Designer with Bugatti and nowadays creates futuristic cars for Cosmic Motors, Tron Legacy and Prometheus in Hollywood. Daniel Simon designed the style-defining elements and graphics of the current Lotus LMP2.

The development of the new car is very well advanced with the latest CFD applications and with tests in the wind tunnel. Immediately after the season final of the 2012 FIA World Endurance Championship the first shakedown is planned to take place.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I don't think ground effects would do much. They might suck the car downwards, but that doesn't mean that the car cannot become airborne at all. It's a question of physics - the wrong amount of force applied in the wrong direction at the wrong time will send a car airborne, regardless of how the car is designed to prevent this.

True enough but this car take off situation does seem to be a flat bottom phenomena.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Who will pay for that LMP2 Lotus (assuming that's a Lotus indeed, nowadays that livery means nothing and the ACBS logo is put everywhere ... )

 

[Bram Turismo]

Is it just me or did they buy an R18 and switched the mirrors, headlights and livery on it?

Ain't complaining, though, because it looks spectacular!

 

[gorsad]

Is it just me or did they buy an R18 and switched the mirrors, headlights and livery on it?

Ain't complaining, though, because it looks spectacular!

It does look a lot like an R18, but I think it's a mock up instead of the actual thing.

EDIT: Just read the article, guess it's the actual thing.

 

[LancerEvo7]

Looks like the headlights from a Lola B09/60 dropped on a TS030.

 

[hawkeye122]

How well is that going to work in the Cost-Capped class? All of ht is talk of State of the Art this and Custom that sounds awfully expensive...

 

[Ardius]

Well I've also proposed the possibility that the bottoms might also be contributing.


Notice the bottom of the side is squared and even has somewhat of a sideblade that goes from end to end. Like this, Air can't get underneith the car because that keeps the air above it.

Years later, the bottom of that side now has a round curve that leads underneith and has no way of keeping air from going under it.

The curved openings at the front of the splitters are to prevent dramatic lift in certain circumstances, where the air suddenly rushes under over crests or bumps or with weight transfer. Making the them flat again would make this issue worse.

The problem with ground effects generally is they are rather unstable in the first place and there are so many things that can upset the car.
This is why ground effects were restricted (or even banned in some cases) and why we don't see flips from formula cars without direct contact.

I think it would be better to outright ban ground effects on the cars and increase the ride-heights, that would presumably reduce the amount of flipping though it would bring the focus back on wings. The other possible factor is the size of the cars, even if they have a flat floor and higher ride height, its possible they could still flip quite frequently. Though maybe if they weren't creating so much under-body downforce it wouldn't be such a factor.

Who will pay for that LMP2 Lotus (assuming that's a Lotus indeed, nowadays that livery means nothing and the ACBS logo is put everywhere ... )

Well Lotus will presumably pay for it through sponsorship but that car appears to be a modified Lola and that article is basically saying Kodewa will outsource/employ people to help design/modify the car.
Its still not really a Lotus at all, but its a bit more of one I guess. Depends how picky you want to be with racing cars as many racing cars are not "really" build by the badges which are put on them. At least its not just a Lola, but by the sounds of it Lotus aren't involved in modifying it either.

Personally I don't really consider it a real Lotus if they aren't even involved in any technical aspect at all. Its not like they are using their own roadcar engine or chassis expertise to develop the car - so its not like Audi or Toyota developing technology they can actually use. Its literally just handing over some money and slapping some stickers on.
Though by that definition the Mercedes-Benz V8 engine used in F1 isn't really a Mercedes engine but an Illmor - designed, developed and build in Britain.

Not even Lotus management appear to be involved from a team perspective, at least with other manufacturers they are involved in the team decisions, perhaps even strategy. I think the only possible real link with Lotus other than money is their driver programme/stable.

 

[RACECAR]

The curved openings at the front of the splitters are to prevent dramatic lift in certain circumstances, where the air suddenly rushes under over crests or bumps or with weight transfer. Making the them flat again would make this issue worse.

I don't mean on the front splitters, I mean on the sides of the car (I wanna say sidepods, but I keep thinking thats the wrong word).

 

[Ardius]

Where on the sides? Could you plop them in paint and draw some circles to highlight where you mean?

 

[hawkeye122]

Where on the sides? Could you plop them in paint and draw some circles to highlight where you mean?

I think he means like little wings.

Sort of like this, maybe? The bit that blocks the Intel branding, below, to the right, and further rear from the Airbox/Rollhoop. Transfer that wing to the same location on a LMP1 frame. Behind the driver door, but lower than the rear wing.

 

[Furinkazen]

I think he means like little wings.

Sort of like this, maybe? The bit that blocks the Intel branding.

O two fins on the car? side by side, so instead of one down the centre like now, one just to the left and right?

 

[RACECAR]

Where on the sides? Could you plop them in paint and draw some circles to highlight where you mean?

 

[Ardius]

Ok now I'm really confused. We've gone from talking about the bottom of the car to the roof?
I don't understand how you've come to that conclusion Hawkeye and I don't understand how those viking wings from the Sauber come into this.

Edit: Cheers for that RACECAR - so you're talking about the ride-height and the rake/angle of attack of the car from the side?

Or are you referring to the physical shaping of the sides of the car - I see you what you mean by sidepod now. So the Bentley has very flat - box shaped sides whereas the Pug has bulbous sides?
That would make sense, the Pug going sideways could act like a giant wing with it being shaped along its sides whereas the Bentley going sideways is just a square block.

 

[RACECAR]

.
Edit: Cheers for that RACECAR - so you're talking about the ride-height and the rake/angle of attack of the car from the side?

Or are you referring to the physical shaping of the sides of the car - I see you what you mean by sidepod now. So the Bentley has very flat - box shaped sides whereas the Pug has bulbous sides?

Exactly. I'm thinking that, along with the Fin, is what has increased the amount of flips.

 

[nitrorocks]

That "Lotus" looks beautiful. And do you think that Rebellion has a lot of funding since Lotus-Renault GP Sponsors them?

 

[Furinkazen]

That "Lotus" looks beautiful. And do you think that Rebellion has a lot of funding since Lotus-Renault GP Sponsors them?

Its Lotus as a branding exercise, they were on the LMP2 cars sponsored by Kodewa who are developing this new car. Rebellion had Toyota powerplants as well.

 

[Ardius]

That "Lotus" looks beautiful. And do you think that Rebellion has a lot of funding since Lotus-Renault GP Sponsors them?

Rebellion or Speedy Racing Sebah as they are otherwise known is the LMP1 team sponsored by Lotus (and Rebellion obviously).

This car is one being built for LMP2 by Kodewa. Nothing to do with the Swiss team.

God damn it Lotus are making everything confusing with their stupid black and gold colour game.

 

[nitrorocks]

Okay thanks. But I'm talking about the Swiss team. Di you think that LRGP funds them well? That was a great 4th place finish for them yesterday.