The New Garage Queen

  • Thread starter Troux
  • 296 comments
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I would like to mention the reliability issue here. One of the posts on the first couple pages said that the average FD has engine failure at like 60k miles if I remember correctly, and that is with stock boost. I think the LSx will last a lot longer than that.

@Soprano if you just go back and read the thread from the beginning, you wont have to start this argument again.
 
better in every practical way is what I said
reliability
economy
weight/weight balance
parts support (arguable)

if you want to pick apart the way I worded it that's certainly fine but my point still stands.
 
Settle down Soprano.

You are creating arguments wherever you go. Just cool it. If you don't agree with someone, at least put forth your argument without the ego.

Furthermore, and this is to everyone else... Don't egg the guy on. If he wants to push buttons, let him do it. That's what the report button is for, and that's what we are here to take care of.



;)
 
Wow im not even the one insulting. I can get reported for disagreeing with someone? Seems to be alot of over sensitivity here.
 
Uhh.., Thats sounds good.


That has to be the least provocative statement you've made the last few days, and it still feels like you're being snide. But yes, it does sound good.


Very good. :drool: I love the way the car is coming along Troux.
 
Last few days? My first post was yesterday, and actually it was stating to someone why a person would do an LS1 or LS2 swap. I actually like the idea and im looking forward to the finished product. I personally wouldnt do it because im interested into auto cross and im fascinated by rotaries. But it doesnt mean im against it or nothing like that. I dont think its better in every way to have an LS1/LS2 but there ar advantages. It seems people are focusing all there attention on me and shaking a stick at every move I make. All I have done is defend my views.

If ive hurt someones feelings or caused offense PM but dont force me to get off topic and talk about things that are irrelevant. Im from a place were men can talk and disagree with each other without getting emotional.
 
Last few days? My first post was yesterday, and actually it was stating to someone why a person would do an LS1 or LS2 swap. I actually like the idea and im looking forward to the finished product. I personally wouldnt do it because im interested into auto cross and im fascinated by rotaries. But it doesnt mean im against it or nothing like that. I dont think its better in every way to have an LS1/LS2 but there ar advantages. It seems people are focusing all there attention on me and shaking a stick at every move I make. All I have done is defend my views.

If ive hurt someones feelings or caused offense PM but dont force me to get off topic and talk about things that are irrelevant. Im from a place were men can talk and disagree with each other without getting emotional.


Fair enough. Just don't act suprised if someone gets angry at you for making a silly comment.
 
The question still stands. Maybe I should just google and find out how the LS1 FD is better in every way.
Yes, you should. I would specifically recommend V8rx7forum.com, as well as the Other Engine Conversions subforum on rx7club.com. You'll have to sort through a LOT of people like you who think it's "just wrong," "doesn't sound right," etc., or people who think the V8 weighs a ton more and offsets the weight balance. There are a few downsides to the swap, none of them being performance aspects. These are: build time/cost (though it's easy to find swapped ones already, in that case this is replaced with the downside of not knowing everything the swapper did and everything in the car that they've touched), having to deal with different repair manuals/dealerships, or resort to customizing when something goes wrong, and I honestly can't think of any more.

The fact of the matter is, the most apples-to-apples conversions (as stock as possible LS1 with AC, PS, and as few changes as possible to the FD, with no additional performance mods) leaves the car with an extra 22 lbs (give or take), and weight distribution barely closer to 50:50 than stock, but many people forget this is negligible, since (A)pretty much any car modding is going to change the weight distribution to a small degree such as this, with the biggest example being a front mount intercooler (50-80 lbs as far forward as possible = bad!) (B)burning through a few gallons of gas makes a more significant change than the LS swap, and (C)proper suspension setup and tuning can make a car with a 70:30 weight balance outperform a similar car with a 50:50.

Soprano 3 1 3
Im still not finding any of your points relevant. The fact still stands that its pretty silly to say an RX7 is better with an LS1 than a rotary. I dont consider the LS1 swap a bad thing, just wouldnt pick an LS1 for the driving im into. Lol nice attempt on the insult though. Just the way I see it.
You're not finding the points relevant because you're ignoring them. Like I've suggested, read about them. When I first heard about the swap, I immediately thought it was always the cheap rednecks' formula for fast to simply "drop a V8 in it," since this has been done to damn near every car on the planet as a cheap, easy path to straight line speed, especially since you can build a Chevy 350 from scratch without having to order anything (parts always in stock at local auto parts stores). This is also before I knew about the rotary (a god-awful engine in every way). After reading, I knew it was pretty much the perfect car, combining the best of America with the best of Japan.

It's not silly, it's PROVEN. With the swap's popularity, there are probably close to 150-200 LSx FDs out there, not to mention a lot more FCs and FBs, that have been doing the swap for longer. Find me one, ONE person that regrets the swap or prefers it with a rotary. Like I said, the numbers speak for themselves, and there's good reason the rotary's production is all but dead.

I don't know what kind of driving you're "into" (how much experience and seat time do you really have?) but I know a V8 seems to be a choice motor for F1 cars and drag cars alike, not to mention the countless different types of chassis they've been swapped into by all types of owners and drivers for all types of driving and motorsports. As a matter of fact, there are more and more RX-7 owners with track-only cars that are swapping for LS motors because they're tired of being in the pits on track day and being stuck in a garage rebuilding during a season. I think I already mentioned one guy saying he went through 3 motors before he went through 1 set of slicks.

With only a handful of exceptions, the only NA motor that ever goes into an FD is the NA 20B (3-rotor), for those wanting the 3-rotor crown and bragging rights, but not being able to afford boost. Really nothing great about this motor. It's very low on power without the turbos, just a little more reliable. If you want the TT 20B (like a lot of rotards aspire to), you're looking at equally poor reliability, with only added weight. Given that this is simply adding a big chunk of iron to the front of the stock motor, this DOES add significant weight, and DOES offset the weight balance (again, still nothing to really cry over). This is much worse than the LS1 swap in terms of numbers, but people still think that being a Mazda and a rotary makes it more acceptable and unoffensive.

If you ask me, drag racing an RX-7 at all is more sacreligious to its original design than swapping a foreign motor in.
 
Anyways. Very well stated Troux I cant disagree with the man with the car. I look forward to seeing the finished product. Maybe a couple vids perhaps?
 
No promises on vids of mine. I don't have a worthy camera, but I'll see if I can have a friend do some taping. I'm sure my friend will get some of his once he gets it running in the next couple weeks. My last day of school is looking to be April 24th, and honestly I should try to avoid doing much to the car until then, given all the tests, projects, and the like that are stacking up. I also found out I have to take a summer class (though just one), so there goes my dreams of spending every waking hour in my garage this summer.
 
No promises on vids of mine. I don't have a worthy camera, but I'll see if I can have a friend do some taping. I'm sure my friend will get some of his once he gets it running in the next couple weeks. My last day of school is looking to be April 24th, and honestly I should try to avoid doing much to the car until then, given all the tests, projects, and the like that are stacking up. I also found out I have to take a summer class (though just one), so there goes my dreams of spending every waking hour in my garage this summer.


How much should one prepare to spend when swapping to an LS1 or 2? If you dont mind me asking. Is a 2JZ swap pretty common? Ive researched this and didnt find many results. But I have seen this done in a FD. I believe it was Trust JP that did it, not sure. It was a good 2 years atleast since ive watched the DVD.
 
I don't remember if I've said in my thread before, but if you stay as basic as possible (no extra mods) with the simple goal of a running, reliable LS1 FD, you can expect to spend about 8-10K, depending on what kind of a deal you can find on an LS1. As many people forget to factor in, if you start with a good-running car (like my friend and I did), you can end up making 3K or so off selling parts. I ended up pulling in closer to $5500, considering I had some low mileage stuff, and I had a few extras I got from the GTO that I didn't need.

My friend got his LS1/T56 for $2800 (crazy cheap), while $3500-$4000 seems to be average, and $5000ish is the going rate for buying a motor from a trusted junkyard offering a warranty with the motor. I know a guy who got an LS2/T56 (going rate 8000-8500 with warranty) for $3200 from a local guy. I got mine for $6500, which is still good enough of a deal that I could make some decent money reselling it. Given those scenarios, my advice would be to start with a decent-running RX7 and run with it until you find a good, local deal on a V8 from a private seller, then go lowball them and pull the rotary. I am low on space, so I decided to find deals and going rates on LS2s, and waited for a buyer for the rotary before I started the swap. My friend did the former, and it ended up fetching him a killer deal on a swap:
Costs off the top of my head:
- 2800 for engine, tranny, ecu, harness
- 450 for new Spec Stage 2+ clutch and slave
- 1250 for subframe, driveshaft, etc.
- 925 for JTR long
- 100 in misc engine gaskets + cleaners
- 65 for FPR and quick disconnects
- 130 Denso supra fuel pump
- 400 for new clutch MC, line, and ls1 ECU tune
- 100 misc fluids
+ 300 for fd tranny
+ 1500 for fd engine
+ 550 for exhaust
+ 450 for intercooler setup
+ 150 for M2 ecu
+ 45 for fd fuel pump
+ 40 manual boost controller
+ 30 FD Starter
+ 150 Bonez midpipe + highflow cat
+ 70 for 13B subframe
+ 25 MAP/BOOST sensor
+ 50 downpipe + O2
- 100 new GM MAF and IAT sensors
- 100 for flywheel resurface, hot tank oil pan, press in new diff bushings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ~3,100.00 so far.

Future estimated costs:
+ ~200 left in misc parts to sell
- 225 adjustable power steering setup
- ~150 for surge tank setup
- 30 shifter handle
- 200 new FD coolant temp and oil pressure sender + adapters
- 1000 exhaust parts, misc wiring stuff, coolant lines, fuel lines, little fab/welding, random **** that comes up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ~1,400.00


I estimate the swap will cost me at LEAST $4500.00 to be on the safer side. $5000 MAX.

I will re-install the under hood A/C parts at a later date.

As for the 2JZ swap, it doesn't EXACTLY fit. To make it very brief, the engine is too tall for the car, but with enough money, anything can be made to work. To expand on this...

SP engineering was one of the first to do this. The Supra-7 is the yellow one with the blingy motor you see pictures of. If you'll notice, it's usually pictured without a hood, because the 2JZ sticks out through the hood, and I think later on down the road a custom one was made, but didn't look right. The other option is to lower the engine. Besides low ground clearance (which should be compensated with a dry sump oiling system, adding another $3000+), you have to lower the steering rack, creating bump steer, and a LOT of it. Bump steer can be compensated for, and is with the minimal lowering that Hinson's LS1 swap offers, however, the more bump steer compensation you have to do, the less strength the bump steer rods have, and the less effect the compensation has. Think of it like bondo for bodywork; you're fine patching up a couple rust holes and smoothing out bumps with a little bondo, but you don't wanna build a whole fender out of the gunk.The best (cost and effort are thrown out the window at this point) option is to set the engine far back enough that it can go behind the steering rack. This involves cutting out the firewall and significantly reorganizing your dash/firewall area.

There are also a couple areas of the swap I'm not sure of, such as the wiring difficulties, how the tranny and shifter fit in, etc. There are also a lot more reasons NOT to do this swap. For one, the engine is a lot longer and heavier. You're looking at adding 100 pounds or so in the engine alone, and I know the tranny is beefy as hell and will carry another 60 lbs or so with it over the stock FD tranny, and with the extra length, you are putting a lot more weight bias up front, before you factor in the front-mounted intercooler that you'll need. (another 80+ lbs on top of the engine weight. Also, there aren't any kits or write-ups out there, so have fun making parts from scratch and learning everything on your own.
 
Nope I looked and didnt see a complete cost stated. This list is actually more helpful. Tho Im looking to spend about $15k and I dont even think I can get an FD for that much period. Thanks anyway tho for the reference.
 
Yes, ive seen a few for under $5k among those ive also looked into getting a JZ70 Supra which I think would be more of a everyday driver. If I get a FC it would have to be a 13B N/A but ive also seen a few cheap renesis. To many options lol. I like 13B Ts but im figured I better pick a vehicle that wont be a money pit ya know. I want to spend most of my money upgrading and detailing rather than repairing.
 
Depending on what you're looking to spend, I don't know that you can find a decent JZA70 for under 6-7K. Either way, that's a pretty different car compared to an FC, and you should test drive both before buying. If your budget is 15K, why buy an NA FC?

Edit: Saw your edit. The NAs aren't much more reliable. The only reliable rotaries are FB and earlier. Also, any rotary enthusiast will tell you, don't bother upgrading the NA.
 
Well the thing is if I spend $15k it would be financed. And $5k is what im willing to spend cash for a car. After financing 15k should be about $17-18 because im willing to put that $5k as dwn payment. Your right they are totally different cars. Ive located a couple Supras with not moderatley high mileage for under $5k I should say. But if everything keeps going smooth I should beable to get something a bit more modern. Lol need I mention a 98 Lude H22 or S2K lol.


I know it seems im only into JDM but ive owned 4 305s (86 Regal (stolen), 83 Comaro (wrecked), 87 T/A(sold), 87 Caprice < smh(sold) in the last 3 years. Im ready to try something new ya know.
 
For under 5K I'll assume you're looking at MA70s, which I would strongly recommend avoiding for a DD. Terribly unreliable motors.
 
Well one was a J for sure and it was about 4500. The thing is most dealerships and private owners adds dont go into details about that type of stuff. So I look at the pics and try to determine as much as I can. If I could find one, no matter the engine, and doesnt need alot of work, I can pretty much just order a 7MGTE, or 1JZGTTE all for under $2000 and swap when ever. I prob wont start shopping until Sept. I just want the car to be dependable first and foremost like youve stated before earlier in the thread. No worries though theres tons of options out there. I dont want to get anymore off topic bro. Mad respect for doing your own work, thats not seen to often.
 
WI dont want to get anymore off topic bro. Mad respect for doing your own work, thats not seen to often.

No problem, I'm a big Supra enthusiast. Japan's finest, in my opinion. Thanks. At times I wish I could drop it off at a shop, but I know there's nowhere in the world I could trust to do things my way. Fun learning experience. I could see myself becoming one of those project car junkies in the future.
 
Yep IMO the Supra is king. Theres nothing more satisfying than saying "I did all my own work".
 
Great looking car dude. I've never seen one as clean as yours up here; your VERY lucky to have that sexy beast. :)

Good luck with your plans regarding the car and the swap...
 
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