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Super-drool.
The non-muscle American car thread (READ THE OP)
- Thread starter The87Dodge
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Super-drool.
The87Dodge
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Here are five of the sportiest Mopars of the late 80's and early 90's.
Shelby CSX, a high performance Dodge Shadow. Just a few hundred were made.
Shelby Lancer, a Dodge Lancer taken to the next level.
Dodge Daytona IROC R/T, an ultra-high performance Daytona. It had 224 horses which was pretty outrageous for the time.
Dodge Spirit R/T, an ultra-high performance Spirit. Just like the Daytona it had 224 horsepower. This car's performance is better than the BMW M3 E30. However, the Spirit R/T is uber-rare.
Plymouth Duster, the highest performance Sundance. It looks more low-key, but has a nice V6 under the hood, so it's a good sleeper.
Shelby CSX, a high performance Dodge Shadow. Just a few hundred were made.
Shelby Lancer, a Dodge Lancer taken to the next level.
Dodge Daytona IROC R/T, an ultra-high performance Daytona. It had 224 horses which was pretty outrageous for the time.
Dodge Spirit R/T, an ultra-high performance Spirit. Just like the Daytona it had 224 horsepower. This car's performance is better than the BMW M3 E30. However, the Spirit R/T is uber-rare.
Plymouth Duster, the highest performance Sundance. It looks more low-key, but has a nice V6 under the hood, so it's a good sleeper.
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The87Dodge
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As would I, but a wildly overrated 30-year-old coupe uprated from a more mundane model is far from the benchmark--and merely being better than one isn't exactly grounds for an "ultra-high performance" claim. Plus, you ought to specify what sort of performance you're speaking of to begin with, because as much as I despise all things modern (yeah, in this instance I believe the term still applies) BMW, I'd wager the M3 would out-handle the Spirit. Then again, with the cars being rare as hens' teeth, it'd be hard to compare the two.
The87Dodge
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Bear in mind that by 1991 standards, 224 horsepower was a hell of a lot, and would be considered ultra high performance. 224 horsepower V6 25 years ago is like a 490 horsepower SRT V8 today. I'd say cornering might be better for the M3 (probably not by much) but this car accelerates better and is quicker than the M3, and maybe even the 190E EVO.
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- TexRex72
Does ultra really apply there either, though? Also, consider 224 may well have been considerable a quarter-century ago, but even the best tires available were nothing to get excited about, and you'd better believe a Spirit didn't get those. But hey, someone buying a 224hp Spirit back then probably wouldn't have cared.
The87Dodge
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Compared to all the other performance cars you could've bought, ultra does apply. It has more horsepower than:
1st generation ford Taurus SHO
Chevrolet Beretta Z34, which was Chevrolet's highest performance car besides the Camaro and Corvette.
Most Mustangs
Most Camaros
BMW M3 E30
Most Audis
Basically all Chevrolet and Ford cars besides the Corvette, Camaro, and Mustang.
Few American cars back in the day performed better than the Spirit R/T.
Sage Ages
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There are a lot more factors to performance than horsepower. Even more so when it's only 224hp.
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Super duper ultra.
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Even so, calling the Daytona IROC R/T "ultra high performance" is not true. "Ultra High performance" in 1991 would be things like the Ferrari F40, Porsche 959, and Lamborghini Diablo.
The87Dodge
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The87Dodge
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- TexRex72
Hit the nail on the nose with that.
The87Dodge
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What I mean was, 224 horsepower was a hell of a lot for American cars. Those supercars are not American, and less than 1,000, while much more Spirits and Daytonas were made. While there are plenty of foreighn supercars that can beat the Spirit, only a few American cars could beat it at the time.Super duper ultra.
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Even so, calling the Daytona IROC R/T "ultra high performance" is not true. "Ultra High performance" in 1991 would be things like the Ferrari F40, Porsche 959, and Lamborghini Diablo.
The87Dodge
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I would not be too surprised if the E30 M3 could handle better than the Spirit. But the Spirit has thirty more horsepower than the M3 (not the evolution), and doesn't weigh that much more. Most likely, the Spirit R/T would accelerate better.
The Spirit R/T is so underrated in my opinion because not many were made, and most didn't believe that an American FF compact car would be that good. But it is that good, just not many people think it.
But that M3 E30, is definitely overrated. It's by far the most liked suggestion threads (1,200 likes), while the higher-performing Spirit R/T has less than twenty.
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And on it goes...
The87Dodge
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Spirit is front wheel drive, correct? M3 E30 is rear wheel drive. The Spirit in my opinion would be beaten by the E30 because it would probably have a good tendancy to understeer, and would wear out the tires quicker also.
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Bingo! Particularly when you consider the tires it would've been equipped with. Plus, having better power-to-weight isn't instantly indicative of quicker acceleration when you consider weight transfer again, and the fact that flooring that Spirit would result in even less grip to the driven wheels, where the BMW would get more.
The87Dodge
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I've said it before ten bazillion times, but I'll say again. The BMW M3 E30 certainly would corner better than the Spirit. But if both cars were racing in a straight line, the Spirit would be the clear winner. You seem to be forgetting that the Spirit R/T has thirty more horsepower than the E30 M3.
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Acceleration counts for nothing when you lose it all slowing for corners. It's not all about straight lines outside North America.
I can tell where your allegiances lie by your username, but trust me, the cars you favour aren't always the best. VXR products are often inferior to rival products, but that's OK. There's nothing wrong with preference, but blind loyalty gets you nowhere.
I can tell where your allegiances lie by your username, but trust me, the cars you favour aren't always the best. VXR products are often inferior to rival products, but that's OK. There's nothing wrong with preference, but blind loyalty gets you nowhere.
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You seem to be forgetting that the Spirit is front-drive and is spinning donuts.
I can't accept that it is here, either.
The87Dodge
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But from that you and @TexRex are saying, you are making it sound like the M3 handles like a Lotus and the Spirit handles like a brick. I can guarantee that the Spirit doesn't handle that much worse than the M3, and it only weighs a little more. In a race at Le Mans, the M3 might corner better, but the Spurit would probably win since it has acceleration and speed to make up fot it.
I am well aware than my favorite cars are not the "best". A 1987 Dodge Aries K can outperform a Cavalier and a base Mustang, but there are many cars that it can't outperform. In this case, the Spirit R/T outperforms the M3 E30 in some aspects.
It's like I'm talking to a wall.
The87Dodge
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No, I haven't forgotten what the drivetrain of the Spirit is, I'm not that dumb. People who are close minded about cars (you seem to be kind of close-minded) seem to believe that all FF cars handle worse than FR cars and always understeer. TheRenault Clio V6 is FF and handles better than almost all FR cars of it's class.
And I know that American racing is a hell of a lot more than racing in straight lines. USA has some of the most famous circuits on Earth, like Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen, Sebring, etc. But I'm not saying that straight-line racing is unimportant, because it's far from it.
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I think you need to just drop the argument and accept that the M3 is a better choice in ways I'm not going to be specific about. Your Mopar bias seems to be getting the best of you, so please simmer down a bit, OK?
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- TexRex72
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Have you actually ever driven either?
Anyway, you're comparing the power figures of a car from 1986 and a car from 1991, which isn't completely fair, especially as BMW launched the next M3, which was obviously faster, 1 year after the Spirit R/T.
Except that it's mid-engined and has rear wheel drive.
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