The non-muscle American car thread (READ THE OP)

[VXR]

The Clio V6 is MR. The Clio 172/182/197/200 are FF. These are light cars with mobile rear-ends that aid their cornering performance. Sure, I've obviously never driven a Spirit R/T, but I'm imagining it's not going to be a live-wire cornering machine.

The E30 could have a turbo fitted and post higher outputs and quicker acceleration figures, but it didn't need it as it drove very well.

 

[The87Dodge]

Way to go sucking any credibility that may have been left in your argument clear out...

You know what TexRex, I've about had it with you.

Yeah I messed up about the Clio's drivetrain, I admit. But you seem incredibly close minded when it comes to FF drivetrain cars. You seem to think that the overrated cars are always the best and refuse to accept that underrated machines like the Spirit R/T can outperform them. You know that the Spirit beats the M3 in acceleration and top speed, but you seem so in denial. You aren't listening to anything I'm saying about the Spirit.

I am not going to continue this argument. It won't be long until a moderator steps in, and I want this thread to have discussions about non-muscle American cars, not stupid fights like this. Next time, if you do not agree with what I say, keep it in your head. Because I will not go through what went on here and in the fprgottencars thread again. Enough is enough.

 

[AnthonyD1993]

Let's be honest here. Most of the 80s offerings from the US were garbage. The 80s was the point that the big three were slowly starting to learn how to produce power again, but most of the things they were building had terrible build quality. Even the Corvette (ususally regarded as one of the best cars to ever be built by a US company) can be found today for nothing because nobody wants them. Hell, some late C3 Corvettes can be worth more due to heritage alone, and those later C3 Vettes are absolute crap and made early C4s look like tanks. The US cars that were good, like the Grand National, are still hits because they were good, but most 80s US cars are still a dime a dozen for reasons that don't involve being good. The majority of 80s (and even 90s) cars are the reason that so many people have the automatic assumption that American cars are garbage just because they're built by American companies.

 

[VXR]

This excerpt makes the R/T sound like a real M3 rival...

On the road, the Spirit R/T was crude. Stiff springs and tight shocks caused the R/T to be "nervous, unsettled and even clumsy," according to Car and Driver. "When cornering on bumpy pavement, limitations of the K-car-based chassis...become evident," noted Road & Track, who also criticized lurching caused by the soft mounting of the engine.

Examiner.com

As for complaining about how you've been treated in a couple of threads, what a load of rubbish. Nobody has abused you in offering their contrasting opinion. Why would mods sort anything?

 

[Legro]

You know that the Spirit beats the M3 in top speed

They might not be 100% accurate, but here are some figures anyway:

the Spirit R/T had a quarter-mile time of 14.5 seconds at 97 mph and a top speed of 141 mph

Top Speed: 146 mph

And that's still 5 years difference.

 

[TexRex]

But you seem incredibly close minded when it comes to FF drivetrain cars.

I have absolutely nothing against front-drivers, on the contrary, I appreciate them for characteristics that they possess and rear-drivers do not. Don't mistake my reluctance to believe a Spirit is unmatched and incomparable merely because I pointed out a flaw stemming from it being front-drive for a dislike of all front-drivers.

You seem to think that the overrated cars are always the best and refuse to accept that underrated machines like the Spirit R/T can outperform them.

I think an M3 can outperform a Spirit. That's very specific, and not at all the generalization you make it out to be. Furthermore, it just so happens I'd take a Spirit over an M3 in an instant solely because of the "not a BMW" factor, though I'd take just about anything over an M3, so that's not saying a whole lot.

You know that the Spirit beats the M3 in acceleration and top speed, but you seem so in denial.

I don't know this. It may be faster overall because I know E30s aren't geared for top speed, but because I don't have the slightest idea how a Spirit is geared, I won't make any bets that it's not actually slower. I certainly doubt the Spirit's acceleration prowess over the M3 because of exactly why I said; being front-wheel-drive (and don't confuse this for hatred of front-wheel-drive vehicles), hard acceleration and the subsequent transfer of weight to the rear of the car will drastically reduce grip to the driven wheels.

You aren't listening to anything I'm saying about the Spirit.

It has 30 more horsepower than an E30 M3--got it.

 

[The87Dodge]

Let's be honest here. Most of the 80s offerings from the US were garbage. The 80s was the point that the big three were slowly starting to learn how to produce power again, but most of the things they were building had terrible build quality. Even the Corvette (ususally regarded as one of the best cars to ever be built by a US company) can be found today for nothing because nobody wants them. Hell, some late C3 Corvettes can be worth more due to heritage alone, and those later C3 Vettes are absolute crap and made early C4s look like tanks. The US cars that were good, like the Grand National, are still hits because they were good, but most 80s US cars are still a dime a dozen for reasons that don't involve being good. The majority of 80s (and even 90s) cars are the reason that so many people have the automatic assumption that American cars are garbage just because they're built by American companies.

First off, the Spirit R/T was a 90's car.

But I agree with what you are saying. Most 80's cars were crapboxes, including Mopaes, like the Colt, Scamp, 400, etc.
Of course, their are the exceptions, like the GNX, the Aries/Reliant/Lebaron (saved Chrysler from bankruptcy and very reliable), Firebird, TC by Maserati, etc.

 

[VXR]

The Spirit itself came out in 1989, so the majority of development work took place in the 1980s. If you're going to be so adamant and a self-appointed brand historian, at least expect people to be pedantic.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

It has 30 more horsepower than an E30 M3--got it.

Except that it doesn't actually.

@The87Dodge I looked up the BMW e30 M3's specs and compared them to the specs of the Spirit. The Spirit R/T wouldn't even out accelerate the M3. The base e30 M3 has 300 hp and weighs 200 kg less than the Spirit.

 

[The87Dodge]

The Spirit itself came out in 1989, so the majority of development work took place in the 1980s. If you're going to be so adamant and a self-appointed brand historian, at least expect people to be pedantic.

I know when it came out. The regular Spirit was released in 89' but the R/T was made in 91 and 92' only.

I have absolutely nothing against front-drivers, on the contrary, I appreciate them for characteristics that they possess and rear-drivers do not. Don't mistake my reluctance to believe a Spirit is unmatched and incomparable merely because I pointed out a flaw stemming from it being front-drive for a dislike of all front-drivers.

I think an M3 can outperform a Spirit. That's very specific, and not at all the generalization you make it out to be. Furthermore, it just so happens I'd take a Spirit over an M3 in an instant solely because of the "not a BMW" factor, though I'd take just about anything over an M3, so that's not saying a whole lot.

I don't know this. It may be faster overall because I know E30s aren't geared for top speed, but because I don't have the slightest idea how a Spirit is geared, I won't make any bets that it's not actually slower. I certainly doubt the Spirit's acceleration prowess over the M3 because of exactly why I said; being front-wheel-drive (and don't confuse this for hatred of front-wheel-drive vehicles), hard acceleration and the subsequent transfer of weight to the rear of the car will drastically reduce grip to the driven wheels.

It has 30 more horsepower than an E30 M3--got it.

You say you have nothing against FF cars in this post, but your previous posts here say otherwise.

Hey, a portion of your post is smart. At least you accept that the M3 has 30 less horsepower than the Spirit:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Words to the wise: have you ever heard the expression, "There are three sides to a story. My side, their side, and what's right."

Here is how it applies to this debate:

My side: The Dodge Spirit outperforms the E30 M3.
Everyone else's side: The M3 outperforms the Spirit.
What's right: The Spirit outperforms the M3 in some ways, and the M3 outperforms the Spirit in some ways.

 

[VXR]

The base E30 had less than 200bhp in original catalysed 2.3 form.

 

[TexRex]

You say you have nothing against FF cars in this post, but your previous posts here say otherwise.

Multi-quote on up then, please.

 

[The87Dodge]

The base E30 had less than 200bhp in original 2.3 form.

197, to be precise.

 

[Legro]

The base e30 M3 has 300 hp

Depends on what you call 'base'.

In full race trim, the naturally aspirated 2.3 L S14 engine produced approximately 300 hp (224 kW; 304 PS).

 

[The87Dodge]

Multi-quote on up then, please.

Here you go:

You seem to be forgetting that the Spirit is front-drive and is spinning donuts.

 

[The87Dodge]

Depends on what you call 'base'.

Except a race trim would not matter, because the Spirit never was involved in any racing other than drags and derby car races somewhere in the South.

 

[TexRex]

Whoosh!!!

Yeah, donuts...slang for "cheap tires."

 

[The87Dodge]

Whoosh!!!

Yeah, donuts...slang for "cheap tires."

From that post, you make it sound like that FF drivetrain makes it spin donuts.

 

[VXR]

197, to be precise.

It had 215 in non-catalysed form. The Sport Evo 2.5 made 237 pferdstarke, which is a closer match for the 1991-92 Spirit R/T. It's easy being selective, but by then Europe was close to receiving the 280hp 3.0 E36. You also have to remember that these German cars cast an eye on Autobahn performance as well as outright acceleration, so top speed was as much a priority. With a more accelerate diff ratio, I expect the M3 would've walked away from the Spirit in a straight line, too.

 

[TexRex]

From that post, you make it sound like that FF drivetrain makes it spin donuts.

Well, to be fair, donuts as you seem to be thinking of would be rather difficult in a front-drive vehicle, as it would require acceleration at lock and the rear tires wouldn't really allow the chassis to rotate as would be necessary to accomplish the task.

I'd already mentioned the lack of available quality rubber at that time, and the fact that a Spirit wouldn't have even gotten the best that was available.

 

[Legro]

Except a race trim would not matter.

Which is why I pointed out the misinformation in his post. 💡

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Depends on what you call 'base'.

Well yeah, I'm not saying it's the base 3-series, I mean the normal M3 and not the sport evo.

EDIT: Nevermind. I get what you meant now, sorry.

 

[VXR]

Well yeah, I'm not saying it's the base 3-series, I mean the normal M3 and not the sport evo.

The base M3 road car was either 197 or 215 depending on if it had the catalyser or not. 300bhp was eventually available in the touring car.

 

[Legro]

Well yeah, I'm not saying it's the base 3-series, I mean the normal M3 and not the sport evo.

'Normal' as in Group A touring car?

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

The base M3 road car was either 197 or 215 depending on if it had the catalyser or not. 300bhp was eventually available in the touring car.

'Normal' as in Group A touring car?

Read my edit, I caught my mistake. Once again, sorry.

 

[The87Dodge]

The base M3 road car was either 197 or 215 depending on if it had the catalyser or not. 300bhp was eventually available in the touring car.

Well don't even try to compare the 300 horsepower touring car to the Spirit. One is a race car, one clearly is not.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Well don't even try to compare the 300 horsepower touring car to the Spirit. One is a race car, one clearly is not.

He wasn't, he saw my mistake and pointed it out. Nothing more.

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Now, I'm just going to post more cars for the thread.

 

[The87Dodge]

He wasn't, he saw my mistake and pointed it out. Nothing more.

----

Now, I'm just going to post more cars for the thread.

Thank you for posting something on topic, it's about time!

 

[Legro]

Here is the thread to discuss and post pictures of any kind of American car that doesn't fall into the muscle car or hot rod category.

So on topic includes discussions about American cars that aren't muscle cars or hold rods, as long as you aren't questioning their performance. Got it.

 

[TexRex]

So on topic includes discussions about American cars that aren't muscle cars or hold rods, as long as you aren't questioning their performance. Got it.

I think you just need to not bring up non-American cars.

*cough* *cough*

Would take one over an E30 M3 any day.